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#320729 - 01/29/20 12:47 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10369
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_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#320730 - 01/29/20 01:01 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Apparently, the major spending increases are due to the increasing interest on the national debt, military spending (Trump likes to brag about that one), the cost of healthcare, and Medicare/Social Security.

Of course, the tax cuts were were the same thing as debt spending, comparable to a cash advance on a credit card. They did little to stimulate the economy.

The rise in revenues is mainly due to the Trump tariffs.

Now that we see the lay of the land perhaps we can have an intelligent discussion about what can be done?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320731 - 01/29/20 01:09 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Dang it! Revenues didn’t rise!

Who is peddling that alternative fact, anyway?

CRFB report
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320761 - 01/29/20 10:25 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Phil Hoskins]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Loc: North San Diego County
Giving tax money to rich folks is not a way to stimulate the economy. Even Laffer said it was a curve, not a straight line: When top tax rates are above 70%, it can increase government revenue. When rates are lower, and they are much lower now, cutting taxes more just leads to more debt.

If you want to stimulate the economy, there is all sorts of crumbling infrastructure that needs to be fixed. And even untrained idiots can work a shovel. They will go out and spend every dollar you pay them, and the money will flow though multiple people before it winds up in the hands of a rich man.

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#320765 - 01/29/20 11:13 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Phil Hoskins]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3630
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is a guy running for president that wants to give everybody 1000.00 a month. Strangely enough this WILL help the economy (canada tried it to see). The guy running (forget his name) is on the right path. Eventually there will have to be a dole like that to support a growing and very real lower, jobless, class. The choices will be few. Either let them starve or give them a stipend. Its coming fast!

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#320769 - 01/29/20 11:45 PM Re: Minimum wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
They will go out and spend every dollar you pay them, and the money will flow though multiple people before it winds up in the hands of a rich man.

And that is the most fundamental basis of an economy... money changing hands.

(PS: since most taxes are placed on money exchanges, that also generates more public revenue to fix infrastructure, pay for Medicare and Social Security, and such).
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320773 - 01/30/20 12:28 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Giving tax money to rich folks is not a way to stimulate the economy. Even Laffer said it was a curve, not a straight line: When top tax rates are above 70%, it can increase government revenue. When rates are lower, and they are much lower now, cutting taxes more just leads to more debt.



Respectfully, you are not describing what is being suggested. No one (that I'm aware of) is arguing in favor of the Government going around handing rich people money. What is being argued is that changing long term incentives by not dis-incentivizing productive behavior through higher tax rates causes people to increase that productive behavior.


Quote:
If you want to stimulate the economy, there is all sorts of crumbling infrastructure that needs to be fixed.


:roll: yeah. I think we've heard that one... once thus far for each administration? And yet somehow, it's always still true for the next one.....

Quote:
And even untrained idiots can work a shovel. They will go out and spend every dollar you pay them, and the money will flow though multiple people before it winds up in the hands of a rich man.


So, the problem I have with the application of the multiplier and standard Keynesian analysis is that it pretends that the money comes from nowhere, rather than taking into account the cost/benefit of attaining it. It's like stealing $20 from someone, giving them $15 back, and then loudly proclaiming yourself their benefactor.
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#320775 - 01/30/20 12:46 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10369
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...it pretends that the money comes from nowhere ...

Well, that’s clearly wrong. Everyone knows it comes from debt.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#320777 - 01/30/20 01:31 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17310
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: jgw
There is a guy running for president that wants to give everybody 1000.00 a month. Strangely enough this WILL help the economy (canada tried it to see). The guy running (forget his name) is on the right path. Eventually there will have to be a dole like that to support a growing and very real lower, jobless, class. The choices will be few. Either let them starve or give them a stipend. Its coming fast!

It is indeed! The beast is eating it's tail. Why is it you don't understand that the only way to solve this dilemma is through some form of "socialism". There simply isn't any other word for it.

The guaranteed income idea is a bit ahead of it's time But it's one of those things that just might magickally work. Giving everybody some padding, a savings account of sorts, courtesy of Uncle Sam. Artists and hippiess can lead simple lives on it, entrepeneurs turn it into a fortune! There are numbers and models that show it could work.

I'm open to other ideas about how to prevent and solve something I see as an almost inevitable future. You seem to share the same vision of the future but fight tooth and nail against the obvious solution.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#320778 - 01/30/20 01:45 AM Re: Minimum wage [Re: Phil Hoskins]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10381
Loc: North San Diego County
The candidate is named Yang. He is a technocrat and as far as I can see, he's the only candidate of either party looking 10, 20, and 30 years down the road.

Quote:
the money comes from nowhere

Not at all: I'm just talking about the government's money Trump's giving to rich people and corporations, that ends up buying private island mansions in tax havens and secret bank accounts.

That money DOES come from debt, but our Dear Leader says that debt does not matter, so let's use the money for something useful instead of pissing it all down the rich folk's golden toilets..

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