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#322368 - 03/02/20 11:27 PM Green New Deal
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10156
Loc: One of the Mexicos
What's in the Green New Deal, anyway?

Renewable energy
"meeting 100 percent of the power demand in the United States through clean, renewable, and zero-emission energy sources"

Our bioenergy+biochar technology produces free carbon negative energy. I think it should have its own category in the GND.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#322370 - 03/03/20 01:42 AM Re: Green New Deal [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
What's in the Green New Deal, anyway?

Renewable energy
"meeting 100 percent of the power demand in the United States through clean, renewable, and zero-emission energy sources"

Our bioenergy+biochar technology produces free carbon negative energy. I think it should have its own category in the GND.


A lot of proposals.
Much of it is cocktail napkin style spitballing, but it's a start.
Anything beyond that will require much more polish and much more research. AOC does not have the kind of funding and resources to produce expensive polished reports, not yet anyway.
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#322372 - 03/03/20 02:08 AM Re: Green New Deal [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10156
Loc: One of the Mexicos
It's in the concept stage right now. The question to ask is, "Which of these ideas aren't good?" The second question has to do with benefit-cost analyses and generating innovative strategies to implement them.

For instance, in the building energy conservation section, a statement was made that there are a lot of buildings in need of insulation and weatherization - how do we pay for them all? The answer is simple - here is one conversation I had with myself during an 8-hour stint in the attic of a commercial building built in 1889, as I was on the delivery end of a cellulose insulation blower hose in 2012: the current heating bill averaged $1600/year; the insulation I was installing cost $2400 and was calculated to reduce the heating cost to $400/year (and be more comfortable to the occupants), for a savings of $800 annually; that means it would be paid for in 3 years; in investment terms, the $2400 would earn an annual yield of 33% ROI. Forever. No risk.

Does anybody here have an investment earning 33% forever with no risk? Now tell me why this would be a problem to make happen financially?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#322373 - 03/03/20 02:27 AM Re: Green New Deal [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
It's in the concept stage right now. The question to ask is, "Which of these ideas aren't good?" The second question has to do with benefit-cost analyses and generating innovative strategies to implement them.

For instance, in the building energy conservation section, a statement was made that there are a lot of buildings in need of insulation and weatherization - how do we pay for them all? The answer is simple - here is one conversation I had with myself during an 8-hour stint in the attic of a commercial building built in 1889, as I was on the delivery end of a cellulose insulation blower hose in 2012: the current heating bill averaged $1600/year; the insulation I was installing cost $2400 and was calculated to reduce the heating cost to $400/year (and be more comfortable to the occupants), for a savings of $800 annually; that means it would be paid for in 3 years; in investment terms, the $2400 would earn an annual yield of 33% ROI. Forever. No risk.

Does anybody here have an investment earning 33% forever with no risk? Now tell me why this would be a problem to make happen financially?


Oh agreed that GND IS indeed just in the concept stage right now, but the overwhelming messaging being peddled in the media is outright hysteria and disinformation.
No one, not even fellow Dems, appear the least bit interested in taking a reading of the thing so that they can help flesh it out.
God forbid the young AOC might have a few good ideas.
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#322386 - 03/03/20 04:20 AM Re: Green New Deal [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10156
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
No one, not even fellow Dems, appear the least bit interested in taking a reading of the thing so that they can help flesh it out.
God forbid the young AOC might have a few good ideas.

I'm trying to work my Congressional delegation to use the insulation and biochar+energy scenarios to show how the GND can work while making money, in a nicely capitalist way, and not have to be subsidized with $$trillions. They are very difficult to access to hear the message. A close friend is taking one of our Senators on a four day wilderness float trip in a couple of weeks, and I've asked him to explain the b+e stuff to him.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#322396 - 03/03/20 02:33 PM Re: Green New Deal [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10156
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An excellent article on ecological economics...

Quote:
Ecological Economics’ Contribution to the Green New Deal
The Green New Deal (GND) must recognize and resolve the tension between economic stability and serious climate action. I believe the following changes to economic and social institutions, constitutive of a steady state economy , are essential to incorporate into activists’ plan to address the climate crisis.

Quote:
While mainstream economics is of little use to those seeking solutions to the real-world threat of ecological collapse, ecological economics proposes a steady state economy (SSE) that prescribes limits around human activity to maintain the natural systems we need to survive. The main priorities of this economy are sustainable economic scale and just distribution of wealth, goals not achieved through markets but through policies based on science and values. Once sustainable and just conditions are established, markets can then play the much smaller role of allocating scarce resources to the goods and services that are most desired. This economy could meet the public’s basic needs and allow for rapid emissions reductions without falling apart.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#322397 - 03/03/20 02:58 PM Re: Green New Deal [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10156
Loc: One of the Mexicos
In the two examples of energy related Green New Deal projects described above, there is an embedded conflict of interest between "capitalist" and "quasi-socialist" approaches.

In both the biochar+energy (b+e) and insulation scenarios, the corporate energy suppliers take a deep hit - they will control less of the energy market and their sales will be reduced. Bad for them but good for their customers - except for the minority who are also shareholders (for them it would be something of a wash). However, if the corporate supplier goes out of business because of a loss of revenues, bad news for everybody. Energy corporations hate conservation and distributed production capacities that they don't own.

But for a co-op energy supplier, all of the customers are owners, and most co-ops do not have much in the way of energy production capacity. So a reduction in energy purchases saves everyone a lot of dough. And any distributed energy production capacity that is owned by the co-op, or any member of the co-op, is a huge benefit - a benefit to all of the members (not just a small collection of investors, most of whom don't live in the service area).

Which model is more appealing to you - the capitalist model, or the socialist model?

What is preventing us from switching to the better model? Energy corporation lobbying, perhaps? Let's say that Congress and the President passed a Green New Deal that "fixed" the lobbying influence and gently subsidized things like insulation and b+e through a revolving loan fund (loan payments coming from energy savings)... would that be too outrageously costly that it would be impossible to do? What if investors had a way to get in on the opportunities like getting a cut of the 33% permanent and risk-free ROI of universal energy conservation, through capitalizing the revolving loan fund?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#322401 - 03/03/20 05:37 PM Re: Green New Deal [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10156
Loc: One of the Mexicos
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#322404 - 03/03/20 07:44 PM Re: Green New Deal [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3242
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have been preaching for small nuclear reactors for a long time now. I think they are actually building one in Idaho that the university of oregon designed. These things cannot melt down, cannot blow up, work without human intervention and, eventually, will be built in factories and delivered on trucks or trains. They can also, amongst other fuels, actually use existing nuclear waste as fuel. there are a LOT of options with these.

If you google "smr reactor" you will get a lot of hits. The problem is the word "nuclear" which has been poison at least as much as "socialism" (sorry, couldn't resist).
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/02/...-warming-planet

Anyway, these will solve the greenhouse thing as far as power is concerned and it would be cheaper than just about everything but existing dams.


Edited by jgw (03/03/20 07:46 PM)

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#322413 - 03/04/20 12:13 AM Re: Green New Deal [Re: jgw]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16858
Loc: Florida
You're getting one in Washington too. Rolls Royce is breaking ground on one in England. I don't think anyone is building one of those molten salt things yet.
The US Navy putters around in Nuclear powered boats so we know they can build small reactors. Seems like it was just announced that plans for a small modular reactor have been published online so anyone with a 3D printer can make their own.
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