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#322670 - 03/09/20 07:18 PM Underclass
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is a lot of discussion about stuff like; welfare, living wage, homeless, etc. Most of this stuff involves something that has been referred to as an underclass. Should really be "permanent underclass" and its seriously growing.

the term "homeless" tends to be the one that is used for our growing underclass. Homeless is a handy word and encompasses those with no job, no home, some with mental problems, some bums, some not bums, some criminals, some not criminals, etc. There are some cities that have dealt with the problem by separating the homeless into those with; mental problems, drug problems, just plain bad luck problems, etc. then providing services and housing whilst enforcing rules. Basically not having a home is just one of many problems.

There was a democratic candidate called Andrew Wang. He recognized there is a problem underclass. His solution was to give everybody 1000.00 This is not a bad idea and they actually tried it in Canada. It worked for some and for some it did not. There are no solutions that will work on everybody but there are some that will work on many. its important to note that there are no solutions, for instance, bums or predators.

It has been estimated that there are between .5 and 1.0 million 'homeless' and that number is increasing regularly. Its also of probable interest that public schools have more and more kids that are homeless for one reason or another.

The foregoing was my blather and attempt at explaining. The simple fact is that we have a growing, identified, underclass and its going to get a lot worse before anybody does anything about it but it is being considered by many. I am writing this in an effort to make folks aware that this is a genuine problem and really does need attention.

Thought this might encourage some solutions and see what they might be. Hopefully without a bunch of political blather.

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#322672 - 03/09/20 08:04 PM Re: Underclass [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
It's the Despair Quotient!

Every human society in history, even the ones that were the most egalitarian, has had an underclass.
An underclass is like a skeleton.
Skeletons don't have neurons, they don't use ATP as a fuel, they are a framework that holds up the body.
And that is what an underclass pretty much does...the rest of society hangs its tissues and trappings on top of the bone of the underclass.

A healthy underclass, however, maintains solidity and maintains a modicum of growth, churn and turnover. Almost everyone starts out in the underclass but they pay their dues, they learn, they compete, they grow and they move up a rung, and another one takes their place and the process begins anew.

We do not HAVE a healthy underclass and we haven't for quite some time. Our underclass does not pay dues, they pay tithes to mobsters and gangsters, they learn cruelty, they learn their place and the permanency of their station, and they grow desperate.
Our underclass is stagnant and pretty much permanent.

And still the despair grows, and with it, all the by products, the drugs, the crime, the balkanization, the hopelessness, the anger.

Our underclass is now a network of favelas, hoovervilles and tent cities, wholly separate from the body politic and utterly devoid of any vision for the future.
When you're forced to make decisions based on an immediate strike at your very ability to survive almost every day, you don't think about the future.
There is no healthy churn or turnover and there is no upward mobility in our underclass.

And the bones have become weak and brittle, and infected with despair.
And meanwhile, the rest of the host body refuses to believe that this fulminating infection can take it down.
The rest of the host body is acting as if that bony framework isn't even necessary.

They act like it doesn't even count for anything.
_________________________
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#322674 - 03/09/20 08:27 PM Re: Underclass [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Many cities have put spikes in the concrete and on benches where they sleep. Some have made it illegal to give them food.

Quote:
its important to note that there are no solutions, for instance, bums or predators.

Bums like Trump and predators like Epstien? The dark underbelly of society knows no class.

Economic inequality creates the underclass. Each time a new billionaire is created thousands more are tipped into the underclass. Wages are simply not sufficient to support life on the lower economic strata.
It doesn't take a crystal ball to look into the future and see that we are in deep trouble. Robots and automatons will soon be doing all the work. People mostly unnecessary except to buy what the machines make. Someone should invent a virus to reduce the numbers of the underclass, the old, the weak, the sick and the poor. Probably working on it as we speak.
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#322677 - 03/09/20 08:52 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We do not HAVE a healthy underclass and we haven't for quite some time.


We have NEVER had a healthy underclass. We started out as slavers. We didn't reform. The slums are not the framework that society is built on Jeffery, they are the detritus. The excrement of capitalism. The slaves whipped to death. If you stumble, if you fall, if you make a wrong decision, capitalism will eat you alive. It has always been thus.
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#322678 - 03/09/20 08:57 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
We do not HAVE a healthy underclass and we haven't for quite some time.


We have NEVER had a healthy underclass. We started out as slavers. We didn't reform. The slums are not the framework that society is built on Jeffery, they are the detritus. The excrement of capitalism. The slaves whipped to death. If you stumble, if you fall, if you make a wrong decision, capitalism will eat you alive. It has always been thus.



I wasn't talking about the destitute.
You're describing the destitute, I was describing the underclass. The destitute aren't even a class, they are the dying.

And if anything, instead of the upward mobility that the underclass (think Ralph Kramden, Joe Six Pack, etc) once had, they are now experiencing DOWNWARD mobility INTO the realm of the destitute.

So it winds up that you and I are really arguing semantics and I do not have any disagreement with a single thing you're saying.
_________________________
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#322682 - 03/09/20 11:08 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Greger
If you stumble, if you fall, if you make a wrong decision, capitalism will eat you alive. It has always been thus.

Still a lot better than goddam Socialism (some people are saying...).
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#322685 - 03/09/20 11:49 PM Re: Underclass [Re: jgw]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3880
Loc: Eugene, OR
Thinking out loud here.

Are humans supposed to be better than all of the other animals that surround us? Is that what makes us human? The fact that we have the possibility to not thin the herd as nature demands of itself sometimes in order to reach equilibrium with the rest of the living world.

Or should our genius and humanity--the thing that supposedly separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom-preclude that? And if so, what is the ultimate goal of all of that?

Just a wondering......
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#322686 - 03/10/20 12:27 AM Re: Underclass [Re: Ken Condon]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Thinking out loud here.

Are humans supposed to be better than all of the other animals that surround us? Is that what makes us human? The fact that we have the possibility to not thin the herd as nature demands of itself sometimes in order to reach equilibrium with the rest of the living world.

Or should our genius and humanity--the thing that supposedly separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom-preclude that? And if so, what is the ultimate goal of all of that?

Just a wondering......


I've had that argument with myself before and unfortunately I usually wind up coming to the conclusion that a thinning of the herd is actually what's coming, and that apparently it is needed.

So for my money, it's only a question of what winds up doing it and when, and to whom.
And even worse, with my papier mache immune system, a disabled wife and son, the probability that we will be among the number thinned is exceedingly high.

So I just count the blessings I've BEEN given all these years, and that's about all I can do.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#322687 - 03/10/20 12:38 AM Re: Underclass [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Are humans supposed to be better than all of the other animals that surround us?
The other animals all seem to be okay. Humans are the broken ones.
_________________________
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#322690 - 03/10/20 02:17 AM Re: Underclass [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
It's the Despair Quotient!

Every human society in history, even the ones that were the most egalitarian, has had an underclass.
An underclass is like a skeleton.
Skeletons don't have neurons, they don't use ATP as a fuel, they are a framework that holds up the body.
And that is what an underclass pretty much does...the rest of society hangs its tissues and trappings on top of the bone of the underclass.

A healthy underclass, however, maintains solidity and maintains a modicum of growth, churn and turnover. Almost everyone starts out in the underclass but they pay their dues, they learn, they compete, they grow and they move up a rung, and another one takes their place and the process begins anew.

We do not HAVE a healthy underclass and we haven't for quite some time. Our underclass does not pay dues, they pay tithes to mobsters and gangsters, they learn cruelty, they learn their place and the permanency of their station, and they grow desperate.
Our underclass is stagnant and pretty much permanent.

And still the despair grows, and with it, all the by products, the drugs, the crime, the balkanization, the hopelessness, the anger.

Our underclass is now a network of favelas, hoovervilles and tent cities, wholly separate from the body politic and utterly devoid of any vision for the future.
When you're forced to make decisions based on an immediate strike at your very ability to survive almost every day, you don't think about the future.
There is no healthy churn or turnover and there is no upward mobility in our underclass.

And the bones have become weak and brittle, and infected with despair.
And meanwhile, the rest of the host body refuses to believe that this fulminating infection can take it down.
The rest of the host body is acting as if that bony framework isn't even necessary.

They act like it doesn't even count for anything.


Gosh. When you put it like that, it seems like maybe putting them all into a system of government dependency wasn't the best thing for them after all.
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

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#322691 - 03/10/20 02:59 AM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Gosh. When you put it like that, it seems like maybe putting them all into a system of government dependency wasn't the best thing for them after all.


Now all you have to do is show us where Ralph Kramden is dependent upon government.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#322692 - 03/10/20 04:12 AM Re: Underclass [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
>system of government dependency

No, the people we are talking about here are BELOW any government systems! They get nothing from the government, other than "move along" from the police.

I think any effort toward public health re the corona virus is doomed because we won't treat everybody who needs it. How can we quarantine people who have no address to stay in? And no government system to house them, so they can be quarantined there? We are starting to discuss some sensible precautions, but they don't work unless everybody isolates and stops spreading the virus.

So our government will be forced to provide housing, medical care, and food to EVERYBODY just to stop covid-19. I think that takes central planning, not Mister Market. But we probably have to wait for a million people to die before our leaders figure that out.

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#322697 - 03/10/20 04:28 PM Re: Underclass [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
No, the people we are talking about here are BELOW any government systems! They get nothing from the government, other than "move along" from the police.


I think that's who the OP was talking about, not the minimum wage workers Jeffery insists are the backbone of society.

To CPWILL I counter that it is the bourgeoisie who are most dependent on government. Who in fact, control government for their own gain and also control the proles who are dependent on them. The proletariet, even the lumpenproletariat(low income republicans), are dependent on the bourgeouisie to allow a few crumbs to fall from the government table where they feast.

Government should not be some entity that poor people are dependent on. The poor, the rich and everyone in between is a part of the government. The government is us, we the people, ourselves. And if we can't depend on ourselves then who the hell can we depend on?

We have a government that works very well for the bougies, because they have made it so with their money. It's up to the rest of us to create a government that works for us too.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#322701 - 03/10/20 05:24 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
No, the people we are talking about here are BELOW any government systems! They get nothing from the government, other than "move along" from the police.


I think that's who the OP was talking about, not the minimum wage workers Jeffery insists are the backbone of society.



They are the backbone of society, and the current system is actually sucking them DOWNWARD into destitution.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#322703 - 03/10/20 05:48 PM Re: Underclass [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
What they get differs from place to place. We are told, for instance, that they are building housing for those who can't afford to rent which is costing somewhere around 50 grand a unit in Los Angeles. Seattle too is right up there. Then there is is another question - who gets what? Seattle, for instance, seems to think that being 'homeless' is it, regardless of addiction, health, mental health, etc.

This all seems to have started, in Seattle, with housing drunks as this was cheaper than taking them to the emergency room every night. I am not against this - just saying...............

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#322912 - 03/16/20 05:30 PM Re: Underclass [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: jgw
What they get differs from place to place. We are told, for instance, that they are building housing for those who can't afford to rent which is costing somewhere around 50 grand a unit in Los Angeles.


Ever since you posted this, I've been searching for links and haven't come up with anything. I'm not accusing you of lying, I'm saying that my searches have yielded nothing of the kind in LA County.

I know Mayor Garcetti has begun a couple of projects but nothing about fifty thousand dollar homes. Maybe I am not searching correctly?
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#322917 - 03/16/20 06:28 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
No, the people we are talking about here are BELOW any government systems! They get nothing from the government, other than "move along" from the police.


I think that's who the OP was talking about, not the minimum wage workers Jeffery insists are the backbone of society.



They are the backbone of society, and the current system is actually sucking them DOWNWARD into destitution.



Badly said that....Let me rephrase...not the minimum wage workers Jeffery **correctly**insists are the backbone of society.

and yes. Sucking them downward.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#322922 - 03/16/20 06:40 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Now all you have to do is show us where Ralph Kramden is dependent upon government.


Bus driver, right? Public transportation. Not just dependent on it but a part of it. Socialist stuff to be sure. It was socialism that made America Great. Let's make America Great Again!

Kramden often complained of his lack of success and often came up with capitalist get rich quick schemes that never worked out...as is typical of capitalism.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#322923 - 03/16/20 06:46 PM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
It's the Despair Quotient!

Every human society in history, even the ones that were the most egalitarian, has had an underclass.
An underclass is like a skeleton.
Skeletons don't have neurons, they don't use ATP as a fuel, they are a framework that holds up the body.
And that is what an underclass pretty much does...the rest of society hangs its tissues and trappings on top of the bone of the underclass.

A healthy underclass, however, maintains solidity and maintains a modicum of growth, churn and turnover. Almost everyone starts out in the underclass but they pay their dues, they learn, they compete, they grow and they move up a rung, and another one takes their place and the process begins anew.

We do not HAVE a healthy underclass and we haven't for quite some time. Our underclass does not pay dues, they pay tithes to mobsters and gangsters, they learn cruelty, they learn their place and the permanency of their station, and they grow desperate.
Our underclass is stagnant and pretty much permanent.

And still the despair grows, and with it, all the by products, the drugs, the crime, the balkanization, the hopelessness, the anger.

Our underclass is now a network of favelas, hoovervilles and tent cities, wholly separate from the body politic and utterly devoid of any vision for the future.
When you're forced to make decisions based on an immediate strike at your very ability to survive almost every day, you don't think about the future.
There is no healthy churn or turnover and there is no upward mobility in our underclass.

And the bones have become weak and brittle, and infected with despair.
And meanwhile, the rest of the host body refuses to believe that this fulminating infection can take it down.
The rest of the host body is acting as if that bony framework isn't even necessary.

They act like it doesn't even count for anything.


Gosh. When you put it like that, it seems like maybe putting them all into a system of government dependency wasn't the best thing for them after all.


Capitalism is a system of government dependency.

You just saw the government light 1.5 Trillion on fire to try and save 'Duh Market'. It coulda lifted millions out of student debt misery and supported the economy from the ground up instead of the top down.


Edited by chunkstyle (03/16/20 06:47 PM)

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#322924 - 03/16/20 07:04 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I had the same problem! However, that being said, I found:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...dos/3882484002/

Google "price of low cost housing in los angeles"

years ago there was a an Indian guy (dot) that worked for a government agency who invented a concrete with a lot of coal ash in it. The theory was that this stuff was very strong and could be sprayed onto forms and it would not cost much. If you google "coal ash concrete homes" you will find a lot of stuff on this one. The concrete is supposed to be VERY strong. There were also cities who were using this stuff to fill holes in the streets that lasted forever. Apparently coal ash, when used in concrete is safe.

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#322925 - 03/16/20 07:10 PM Re: Underclass [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
the fed is interesting. I remember, a few years ago, when there was a kindofa audit made and it seems that they tend to waste money, and give money away to friends and the wives of friends. this was during the time of the 2008 financial problems. There were, at the time, cries for a full on audit - which never really happened. That, in itself, I always considered a bit strange.

I am for an independent fed as it has worked well for us. I am also, however, for a full audit of the fed. It just seems that its really due. As far as the 1.5 trillion goes. I am not even sure the money is virtual or real on that one. I do know that whatever it was it didn't change a damned thing.

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#322933 - 03/16/20 08:24 PM Re: Underclass [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Imagine what relieving a generation from debt peonage might have done. I doubt much of the money would have wound up in a Cayman Bank. Might make it possible to buy a car or a washing machine though.

The war department has not been audited either and is in violation of federal law. That hasn't stopped them from getting more money than they've requested though from democrats in congress. I would like to see an accounting of this entity as well as the security state.

Won't hold my breath

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#322966 - 03/17/20 01:49 PM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Gosh. When you put it like that, it seems like maybe putting them all into a system of government dependency wasn't the best thing for them after all.


That's a really polite way of saying "[censored] them, let them starve."
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#322974 - 03/17/20 05:58 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Now all you have to do is show us where Ralph Kramden is dependent upon government.


Bus driver, right? Public transportation. Not just dependent on it but a part of it. Socialist stuff to be sure. It was socialism that made America Great. Let's make America Great Again!

Kramden often complained of his lack of success and often came up with capitalist get rich quick schemes that never worked out...as is typical of capitalism.


My bad.
I meant to say "where Kramden is dependent upon government assistance", like welfare. For sure, he's a local government employee though. Time to break up his public sector union, those bastards!!
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"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
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#323004 - 03/18/20 03:16 AM Re: Underclass [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Gosh. When you put it like that, it seems like maybe putting them all into a system of government dependency wasn't the best thing for them after all.


That's a really polite way of saying "[censored] them, let them starve."


Reading Comprehension issues, huh?

Tsk. Darn government schools. :shakes head:


Edited by CPWILL (03/18/20 03:17 AM)
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Winter Is Coming

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#323005 - 03/18/20 03:21 AM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
To CPWILL I counter that it is the bourgeoisie who are most dependent on government. Who in fact, control government for their own gain and also control the proles who are dependent on them. The proletariet, even the lumpenproletariat(low income republicans), are dependent on the bourgeouisie to allow a few crumbs to fall from the government table where they feast.


I think I would work with a different set of definitions. The middle class are not the most dependent on government - they simply take the most from it, while paying (relative to other developed nations) very little.


Quote:
Government should not be some entity that poor people are dependent on. The poor, the rich and everyone in between is a part of the government. The government is us, we the people, ourselves. And if we can't depend on ourselves then who the hell can we depend on?


You have just said mutually exclusive things. If the poor should not be dependent on the government, but the government is us, and the poor should be dependent on us...

A=B and B=C, but A=/=C?
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Winter Is Coming

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#323006 - 03/18/20 03:22 AM Re: Underclass [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Gosh. When you put it like that, it seems like maybe putting them all into a system of government dependency wasn't the best thing for them after all.


Now all you have to do is show us where Ralph Kramden is dependent upon government.


HAH! I don't even know who that is! laugh


Edited by CPWILL (03/18/20 03:22 AM)
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#323088 - 03/20/20 05:20 PM Re: Underclass [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
‘We should blow up the bridges’ — coronavirus leads to class warfare in Hamptons

Quote:
It began one week ago. First came the social media posts, the rich showing off their fleets of SUVs — three to a family sometimes — with fresh and canned food bought in the city, announcing they were headed to their second homes out east, where they immediately ravaged every supermarket and stripped the shelves bare.

Then they hit P.C. Richard & Son in Southampton to rush-order extra freezers to hoard all that food — 700 orders last weekend alone. When one customer was asked what size freezer she wanted, she said, “I don’t care. It just needs to be big enough that I can hide in it.”


The underclass that cooks, cleans and serves them are suffering now.
They're out of work, stuck at home, and can't even get the essentials for survival.
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#323220 - 03/22/20 08:51 PM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I don't even know who that is! [Ralph Kramden]


That's because most regulars here have about 40 more years of life experience than you. You should be able to find Ralph via Google.

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#323231 - 03/23/20 03:00 AM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
If the poor should not be dependent on the government, but the government is us, and the poor should be dependent on us...

A=B and B=C, but A=/=C?


There should be no "poor".

At least not in the sense they currently exist. Food, healthcare, housing and education should be available to all. A day is coming, not so far away, when machines do most of the work and a majority of humanity is going to become redundant. A sort of a basic income will probably have to become a thing at some point. Or a better virus than this one...unless it's designed to mutate and come back like Death's scythe.

One way or another we want to try to eliminate the (very)poor altogether.
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#323239 - 03/23/20 11:52 AM Re: Underclass [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ujest Shurly Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 642
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
I don't even know who that is! [Ralph Kramden]


That's because most regulars here have about 40 more years of life experience than you. You should be able to find Ralph via Google.


While you are at it, also google Jackie Gleason and find and watch episodes of The Honeymooners.
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#323280 - 03/23/20 09:00 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Ujest Shurly]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Ralph was a metro bus driver. I don't think he worked directly for the city but his company, Gotham Bus Lines maybe(?) was probably a city contractor. So in a sense he was dependent on government.
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#323284 - 03/23/20 09:46 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Ralph was a metro bus driver. I don't think he worked directly for the city but his company, Gotham Bus Lines maybe(?) was probably a city contractor. So in a sense he was dependent on government.


One thing is for sure, Ralph Kramden would be an "essential worker" at this point, and just for some perspective, he only needed that one job to afford a roof over his head, food, utilities, and even healthcare, and it's likely he could have afforded night school or some other higher education if he wanted to upgrade, or he could have taken advantage of plentiful union apprenticeships to move into a higher paying trade.

None of the above is the reality now.
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#323712 - 04/01/20 02:32 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Greger
Ralph was a metro bus driver. I don't think he worked directly for the city but his company, Gotham Bus Lines maybe(?) was probably a city contractor. So in a sense he was dependent on government.


One thing is for sure, Ralph Kramden would be an "essential worker" at this point, and just for some perspective, he only needed that one job to afford a roof over his head, food, utilities, and even healthcare, and it's likely he could have afforded night school or some other higher education if he wanted to upgrade, or he could have taken advantage of plentiful union apprenticeships to move into a higher paying trade.

None of the above is the reality now.


We have been a single income family for the past decade-and-change, while she raised and homeschooled children. During that time, we have been able to afford, a roof, food, utilities, healthcare, and education.

I've got nothing against the trades, but the doom-and-gloom picture of working American's simply isn't generally accurate.
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#323713 - 04/01/20 03:10 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
If the poor should not be dependent on the government, but the government is us, and the poor should be dependent on us...

A=B and B=C, but A=/=C?


There should be no "poor".


That is not, actually, a response to the point that you had made mutually contradictory statements...

Regardless, as for your second point, I don't think that is necessarily correct. We have very - very - few "poor" in absolute terms in the United States, and most of those (the homeless) are driven by factors that can't really be fixed by the State.

What we generally have is relative poverty in which my neighbors enjoy a lifestyle that would put them solidly in the middle to upper-middle class in the vast majority if times and places that aren't the 21st-Century-United States. If our poor today lived in McMansions, drove late-year mercedes, could afford healthcare and college, and had a laptop and a smart phone for every member of the family, but the average family income rose in a commensurate manner, the first group would still be "relatively" poor, even as they lived better lives than the middle class of yesteryear.

Historically, unfortunately, attempts to get rid of "relative" poverty have mostly produce widespread "absolute" poverty instead.

We can sharply reduce absolute poverty with government action:

Quote:
At least not in the sense they currently exist. Food, healthcare, housing and education should be available to all.


For example, we have Public Housing, TANF/SNAP/WIC, Medicaid, and Government Schools which provide all those things.

However, those programs (along with EITC and other) often have perverse incentives that punish the poor when they attempt to make positive life changes, such as by getting married, or increasing their income. Welfare Cliffs – where you lose more in benefits than you gain from making a positive decision – absolutely litter our current, sclerotic, welfare structure of hundreds of overlapping and sometimes contradicting programs.

Personally, I advocate for the replacement of all current welfare programs with a single Negative Income Tax of -50% on all monies not earned below 200% of the Federal Poverty Line that, while it comes with some minimal work requirements for most able-bodied adults, defines work broadly enough to allow for participation by the entire populace (volunteering at a soup kitchen, for example), regardless of unemployment rates

So (making up numbers) if you were a family of four (making FPL $26,200), and you worked full time making Wal Mart’s entry level wage of $10 (making your annual salary $20,800), your monthly NIT subsidy would look like:

200% of FPL = 52,400
Annual Salary = 20,800 // Monthly Salary = 1600
Annual NIT = (52,400 – 20,800) * 0.5 = 15,800
Monthly NIT = 15,800 / 12 = $1,316.67
Total Monthly Income = $1,316.67 + 1600 = $2,916.67

Or, if you could find no employment, and all you could do was volunteer at that soup kitchen, well, 50% of 200% of the FPL is the FPL, so, you would at least be lifted out of poverty.

There’s more to it than that (I fleshed out the program in full elsewhere, and accounted for hours spent taking care of children or attending school/training, as well as automating things like child-support payments and providing a net-hours bonus for married couples, recognizing that many prefer the one-breadwinner-model), but that’s the basic version.

Quote:
...A sort of a basic income will probably have to become a thing at some point....


UBI experiments have thus far gone badly - mostly, I think, because they remove positive incentives and the individual self-worth that comes with work. That is why I like an NIT that utilizes work for those who can.

Quote:
A day is coming, not so far away, when machines do most of the work and a majority of humanity is going to become redundant.


Nah. smile The human workforce will just continue to change. 98% of Americans used to be involved in agriculture. Machines came along to lift most of that burden, and today, about 2-4% of Americans work in Agriculture, yet, we don't see 94% unemployment. Ditto for the farriers, veterinarians, blacksmiths, stable-boys, and street-sweeps who got put out of business when the automobile took over from the horse.


Edited by CPWILL (04/01/20 03:16 PM)
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#323725 - 04/01/20 06:40 PM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think you are suggesting that the current poor should be given a living wage rather than the plethora of programs that are designed to 'help'. Interesting. I think the first to suggest this was Richard Nixon (really!)

The problem is that you are also assuming that those who would get such would be competent to actually live off it. Unfortunately that is really unlikely insofar as most of those who don't work are concerned. What is more likely is that many would burn through the money and not have anything to eat towards the end of the pay period (whatever it was, including weekly). Talk to any adult social worker and ask them what they think. I suspect they would say the same. Unfortunately there are those who need all the help they can get and are REALLY bad at life!

Oh, I don't consider this a joke.


Edited by jgw (04/01/20 06:41 PM)

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#323732 - 04/01/20 07:07 PM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

None of the above is the reality now.


We have been a single income family for the past decade-and-change, while she raised and homeschooled children. During that time, we have been able to afford, a roof, food, utilities, healthcare, and education.

I've got nothing against the trades, but the doom-and-gloom picture of working American's simply isn't generally accurate.


What do you do, if I may ask?
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#324166 - 04/11/20 01:14 AM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Greger
Many cities have put spikes in the concrete and on benches where they sleep.


Hostile architecture. It's not new or shocking or whatever. It's America.
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#324167 - 04/11/20 01:17 AM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Gosh. When you put it like that, it seems like maybe putting them all into a system of government dependency wasn't the best thing for them after all.


Now all you have to do is show us where Ralph Kramden is dependent upon government.


HAH! I don't even know who that is! laugh


That is because you young, and the young are weak.

Whereas I am made out of scabs and can survive for 3 weeks on an unwary pigeon.
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#324214 - 04/11/20 02:58 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

None of the above is the reality now.


We have been a single income family for the past decade-and-change, while she raised and homeschooled children. During that time, we have been able to afford, a roof, food, utilities, healthcare, and education.

I've got nothing against the trades, but the doom-and-gloom picture of working American's simply isn't generally accurate.


What do you do, if I may ask?


I was enlisted in the military, then I got out and have been working as a contractor / civilian (I got out after 8 years, so, no retirement check or anything). Before that I waited tables and managed a restaurant, which then went under after the owner turned out to be a fraudulent thief who absconded with two months of our pay.

We spent 3 years as an E3 because the Marine Corps Would. Not. Promote. Grunts. (yeesh). Now I make pretty good money (baseline isn't six figures, but I can get there if I work a bunch of overtime over the course of the year), but some of those early years we were pinching some pennies :p.

And even then ($1,692 a month) we were living pretty well off, compared to others, who were also getting by. I worked with tons of other people (I do free financial counseling for folks) at and around that income level - 99% of the time it's not a matter of "Oh We Can't Make It On This Income", it's a matter of "I don't have a budget and so I have no idea where my money is going, or where it went, and so I live on credit cards and this nice $30,000 new truck that is guaranteed to go down in value".


I've sat down with people who were so vastly outweighed by their debts that their minimum monthly payments were greater than their monthly take home pay, I've sat down with newly-divorced single mothers without jobs and facing poverty, I've sat down with low income couples, mid income couples, high income couples, military, government, regular employee, self-employed....

...and I've never yet come across a hopeless case. smile America is an incredible, beautiful land.

Heck, many times, with the low income couples, when you added in the extra costs of daycare, gasoline, clothing, food, etc., they were either just breaking even or losing money by having the wife work.


Edited by CPWILL (04/11/20 03:03 PM)
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#324218 - 04/11/20 03:22 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl


That is because you young, and the young are weak.

Whereas I am made out of scabs and can survive for 3 weeks on an unwary pigeon.


laugh You are old, and brittle, and can't take someone coughing on you. My generation has spent the last two decades in Afghanistan learning that There Are No Rules. laugh Welcome to the Jungle, old man laugh laugh
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#324219 - 04/11/20 03:28 PM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas


What do you do, if I may ask?


I was enlisted in the military, then I got out and have been working as a contractor / civilian (I got out after 8 years, so, no retirement check or anything). Before that I waited tables and managed a restaurant, which then went under after the owner turned out to be a fraudulent thief who absconded with two months of our pay.

We spent 3 years as an E3 because the Marine Corps Would. Not. Promote. Grunts. (yeesh). Now I make pretty good money (baseline isn't six figures, but I can get there if I work a bunch of overtime over the course of the year), but some of those early years we were pinching some pennies :p.

And even then ($1,692 a month) we were living pretty well off, compared to others, who were also getting by. I worked with tons of other people at and around that income level - 99% of the time it's not a matter of "Oh We Can't Make It On This Income", it's a matter of "I don't have a budget and so I have no idea where my money is going, or where it went, and so I live on credit cards and this nice $30,000 new truck that is guaranteed to go down in value".


I've sat down with people who were so vastly outweighed by their debts that their minimum monthly payments were greater than their monthly take home pay, I've sat down with newly-divorced single mothers without jobs and facing poverty, I've sat down with low income couples, mid income couples, high income couples, military, government, regular employee, self-employed....

...and I've never yet come across a hopeless case. smile America is an incredible, beautiful land.

Heck, many times, with the low income couples, when you added in the extra costs of daycare, gasoline, clothing, food, etc., they were either just breaking even or losing money by having the wife work.


Great.
Thing is, the only real hard goods debts Karen and I have are one car payment and the mortgage.

Everything else, literally EVERYTHING ELSE, is medical.
Medical medical medical...it's always BEEN medical with us.

Being disabled is expensive. Being disabled and raising a disabled son is even more expensive.
I asked what you do that you can afford being a one income family for a specific reason, to compare notes with my own experiences.

In the 1980's/1990's I wasn't yet married to

"THE GIRL I SHOULD HAVE MARRIED IN THE FIRST PLACE - KAREN"

I was married to Linda, the former Mrs. Barry Beckerman (Barry produced the 1984 hit film "Red Dawn") and we were also a single income family, no kids...Hollywood dream couple. (that became a nightmare, but I digress)

I was an IATSE Union Local 776 Motion Picture and Videotape Editor
A Z-1 On Call Picture Editor to be specific, and I was making $2495 a week - - in 1980's dollars.
So you see, I know what it is like to make good money. I made "more money than God" for a good long while.

And even then when we racked up debt, we budgeted everything.
It all worked smoothly. So I also know about staying within a budget.
That's how I was able to own my own post production facility.

The issues we face today aren't much different than a lot of working American families. While you may have sat down and worked out budget woes for a lot of families saddled by debt, I wonder if you've ever faced a family that has the kind of debt we have.
We do have one of those "nice $30,000 new truck[s] that is guaranteed to go down in value" by the way, only it's an eighty thousand dollar truck guaranteed to go down in value.
Handicap accessible vans ain't cheap.

The reason we bought it is because the PAID OFF 2004 Dodge Caravan we used to own simply could not go another mile and be worth saving.
She gave us almost 300 thousand faithful miles.
We didn't have a choice.
The VA paid for the handicap conversion so that's about 35,000 out of the eighty we don't have to worry about.
But in order to carry Karen anywhere, we have to have a ramp van.
And we did not want to face a rolling series of repairs and the VA only converts new vehicles...you can't very well blame them.

When we first moved back to SoCal we were renting a 1300 SF 3BR house in Downey for 2700 a month. Now we're paying 2400 a month for a 2230 SF 4BR house in Whittier, so we got a better deal by OWNING than we would by renting.

We are not spendthrifts, CP. We don't "live beyond our means".
We don't run up the plastic to the max. We just have a house and car, that's all.

Of course, thanks to the pandemic, we will probably once again face the possibility of being underwater on our home, just like back in TX when Bush screwed up the economy in 2007.
In Texas, in 2006, we bought in at $172K and watched in horror as the value of our brand new home went down to 94K. When we sold it in 2013, we got almost 200K...thanks Obama.

We bought in Whittier for $475K in 2012 and last time I checked, just before COVID-19 hit, our home value was $699K.

We have not failed at being capitalists. Capitalism seems to keep failing us, because a few capitalists are just too damn greedy and keep trying to game the system, and when it blows up in their faces, normal working American families like ours get hit by the mess.

The good news is, just like in the 1930's, it looks like socialism, or at least - SOCIAL DEMOCRACY, (closer to the truth) is probably going to rush in and save capitalism one more time.

Because if it doesn't...welcome to the civilization that didn't go out with a bang, but with a whimper.
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#324220 - 04/11/20 03:29 PM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
... and this nice $30,000 new truck that is guaranteed to go down in value".

Hmmmf... $30K, that's not much of a truck.

Here's one on sale!



Pretty bare bones though - tough to live without the basic options. Could probably make it tolerable with $15-20K in add-ons.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#324225 - 04/11/20 05:20 PM Re: Underclass [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Here's my new truck! It's pretty pricey as these things go but I won't need fuel, insurance, or a license.

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#324229 - 04/11/20 05:35 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I took a good look at those - they're pretty cool. ThumbsUp
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#324245 - 04/11/20 07:36 PM Re: Underclass [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Upgraded to a 3/4 ton ford last year. It's a 2014 that a guy had for pulling his fifth wheel out to the dunes. He got old and creaky, so he hardly ever went. We paid $14,000. We needed a bigger truck for stuff like getting a half yard of sand, gravel, etc. The old mini-pickup just bottomed out with that much. It should last longer than we do, since we have a Prius and a RAV4 for usual driving. The truck is just for ranch stuff and moving appliances.

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#324293 - 04/12/20 07:00 PM Re: Underclass [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
My generation has spent the last two decades in Afghanistan learning that There Are No Rules.


Who put you there?

We know there's no rules.
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#324301 - 04/12/20 09:03 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Hamish Howl]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
You're a mean one Mr. Howl.

As cuddly as a cactus and as charming as an eel.

etc.
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#324312 - 04/12/20 11:20 PM Re: Underclass [Re: Greger]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Greger
You're a mean one Mr. Howl.

As cuddly as a cactus and as charming as an eel.

etc.


I have teeth with which to GRIN.

And I have noticed that this century is worse than the last one.
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