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#323143 - 03/21/20 07:26 PM voting
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Many years ago there was a big debate about the efficacy and security of voting machines. At the time there was only a couple of companies making voting machines and all software, on the voting machines, was proprietary. One of the results of that debate is that a bunch of programmers got together to create software that was free, better, and source available.

Anyway, I came across: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/09/defcon-2019-hacking-village/

The was a test of hackers to see if they could hack the voting machines currently in use. They could. Google "hack voting machine" for a lot of returns. One test was by high school kids and they were able to hack a machine in something like 30 seconds! (if I remember correctly).

Anyway, I always thought the debate was legit and voting machines are completely unsecure, expensive, break down often, etc.

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#323147 - 03/21/20 08:57 PM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Wasn't it Diebold who first said "We are committed to delivering the voting results to President Bush" way back in 2003?
_________________________
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#323149 - 03/21/20 09:16 PM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Double digit exit poll discrepancies are also a sign of vote rigging but who’s looking...
Closing polling stations and limiting access to remaining ballot boxes has been widespread and reported on. Strange polling apps such as the one in Iowa, and the statistically impossible errors against one candidate are another problem. So long as there’s no objection of this criminality I expect voting to be little more than a charade, or entertainment in the future.

I wonder, JGW, if This thread you started will lead to a years long discussion as the Russian hoax hysteria did on this site?

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#323151 - 03/21/20 09:21 PM Re: voting [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Double digit exit poll discrepancies are also a sign of vote rigging but who’s looking...
Closing polling stations and limiting access to remaining ballot boxes has been widespread and reported on. Strange polling apps such as the one in Iowa, and the statistically impossible errors against one candidate are another problem. So long as there’s no objection of this criminality I expect voting to be little more than a charade, or entertainment in the future.

I wonder, JGW, if This thread you started will lead to a years long discussion as the Russian hoax hysteria did on this site?







Define Russian hoax hysteria.
You keep packing that in like a Tootsie Roll in a kid's lunch, so maybe we all need to understand what your position is on the Russians to begin with.
_________________________
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#323154 - 03/21/20 09:43 PM Re: voting [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Double digit exit poll discrepancies are also a sign of vote rigging but who’s looking...
Closing polling stations and limiting access to remaining ballot boxes has been widespread and reported on.




Well clearly that's Biden's doing, he closed all those polling places, not the Party of Trump.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#323155 - 03/21/20 09:49 PM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
That the Russian government was responsible for putting Trump in the Whitehouse.

There used to be a years long thread here about it. Now it’s no longer a thing here for some reason. I expect it will be again on the general.

Sorta like Tulsi Gabbard, I suppose. First she’s a Russian asset, now she’s not.

But golly it sure was fun to conjecture on.

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#323157 - 03/21/20 09:50 PM Re: voting [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
How is that clear?

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#323159 - 03/21/20 09:59 PM Re: voting [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
That the Russian government was responsible for putting Trump in the Whitehouse.

There used to be a years long thread here about it. Now it’s no longer a thing here for some reason. I expect it will be again on the general.

Sorta like Tulsi Gabbard, I suppose. First she’s a Russian asset, now she’s not.

But golly it sure was fun to conjecture on.



What's your position? Putin clean as the driven snow?
_________________________
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deepfreezefilms.com

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#323160 - 03/21/20 10:19 PM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
No, he is not. I don’t recall ever saying that.

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#323161 - 03/21/20 10:27 PM Re: voting [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
No, he is not. I don’t recall ever saying that.


And?
_________________________
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deepfreezefilms.com

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#323162 - 03/21/20 10:29 PM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
There has been much coverage of how insecure the voting machines are but, if you weigh how much time there was spent over the last three years on foreign election meddling vs. our very compromised voting systems, JGW, you would have to conclude that validating vote results is far less importance than Russian troll farms and Facebook memes.
Obviously I’m being sarcastic but with the willful obtuseness of vote rigging in 2016 and what has been happening recently, voting security concerns is variable and arbitrary now.

‘Give us the ballot box’ seems to be as relevant today as it has been since reconstruction.

Who said if voting made a difference they’d make it illegal’?


Edited by chunkstyle (03/21/20 10:29 PM)

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#323180 - 03/22/20 03:41 AM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
Most of the voting around here is by mail, so exit polls are meaningless. I also hang up on surveys and I think a lot of people do, so the only people who do answer are those with a particular ax to grind.

This why I say vote rigging is highly unlikely these days. There is just too much transparency and cross checking. Too many people would have to be in on it to ever keep it a secret. Nobody at all credible has ever claimed the Russians changed a single vote in 2016. And if they did, why didn't they do anything about 2018? Obviously it DID make a large difference in 2018, so I would say your premise is already proved false.

Everybody agrees the Russian's did manipulate public opinion a great deal in 2016, except for Trumpsters.

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#323184 - 03/22/20 12:11 PM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 627
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Secrecy over vote rigging, would not last long in this country. Somebody, somewhere, connected with it would have a crisis of conscience and would spill the beans. Things that are wrong and are being covered up, generally do not stay covered up in this country. Somebody, somewhere will leak and to me that is a strength of this country. That someone will have the moral courage to break the secrecy and come forward. This happened recently, a bunch of people come forward, spilled the beans, and sadly nothing became of it. But that is another kettle of fish.

So, vote rigging/voter fraud when it does happen is statistically insignificant. Though I believe all voting should be by mail and on paper. For those who want to save the trees, the paper can be made from Sweet Potatoes So you can have your vote and eat it to laugh
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#323187 - 03/22/20 03:27 PM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Hilarious.

Your rational is vote rigging could not last long because it couldn't be kept secret. That's your argument. A self re-enforcing illogic....

First out of the playbook is to stand behind anyone making the allegations and twirl your finger at your temple and cross your eyes. 'That guy is nuts.'

Second is to grab hold of a logical explanation that supports how you want to view the world. " Somebody, somewhere, connected with it would have a crisis of conscience and would spill the beans."

People are and have been. I posted up an attorney speaking out about the destruction of back up ballots and mathematical impossibility of the reported out results in his election.

I've been commenting on object reality since Iowa.

You've been fashioning alternative explanations to mathematical improbabilities. You don't need a person to 'spill the beans' you have to look at the math. How do you think election observers call an election rigged. by the way? You think they sit in their offices and wait for the bean spilling and then scramble?



Edited by chunkstyle (03/22/20 03:55 PM)

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#323210 - 03/22/20 07:51 PM Re: voting [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Yep. What you didn't say is that Diebold is one of the biggest suppliers of voting Machines with their proprietary software that is known to be accessable to junior high schoolers that want to hack something. If you want to get info then google: Diebold voting machines and all about it, stuff like they sold out and reduced the number of voting machine makers (all of which seem to be Republicans and this is in reference to Diebold, at the time, promised to "deliver the vote to the Republicans". Also "how to hack a voting machine in 7 minutes".

I live in Washington state, we don't have voting machines and I am grateful for that. We have mail in ballots. These are counted by machine with very small errors (based on hand counts). The counting is also quick.

As far as I can tell the only real value of voting machines is that they make money for the makers and votes for the Republicans. This has been tested, over and over, and I don't think there are any real questions when it comes to getting rid of them. They started because they were modern/kinda computers/electronic, etc. Probably a time for a change?

I know, there are problems to be addressed and they should all get fixed right now. Since that is unlikely, perhaps this might be a place to start? I know, everybody wants everything to change - RIGHT NOW! Sorry, not gonna happen but that doesn't mean that everything should get abandoned. I think its better to at least try? One thing at a time?


Edited by jgw (03/23/20 06:43 PM)

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#323215 - 03/22/20 08:19 PM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
I don't think the transparency depends on somebody in a conspiracy having a crisis of conscience and spilling the beans. I think the precinct vote totals are public knowledge, and the totals in each district have to add up, and the totals for each state have to add up, and the electoral votes have to follow the totals in each state according to the state's rules. A lot of states have paper trails, or paper ballots. Any jiggering would be discovered very quickly by a lot of people.

So anybody trying to change votes would have to do it right at the individual voting machine level in a system with no paper trail. Now we have seen touch screen machines that are mis-calibrated so you push on one candidate's box and a different candidate's box lights up. But the voter can fix that by pushing on different places until the candidate they want lights up, before they commit their vote. Any attempt to do that on purpose would be discovered and the company would lose millions of dollars worth of contracts or even be charged criminally.

Most "voter fraud" is actually accidental by felons who think they have had their voting rights restored when they have not. Most intentional voter fraud is by Republicans who vote twice after moving, so they have duplicate registrations.

But we should dump all the machines and go to printed paper ballots by mail right now. The main problem with that is election officials trying to match signatures. I have MS so my motor skills including signatures are pretty crappy. (So is my typing, but I get to fix that.) So we need a better verification method.

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#323267 - 03/23/20 06:55 PM Re: voting [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I agree on dumping the machine. Right now we are using machines that a high school kid hacked in a whole 7 minutes!

I don't know about the signature thing. I do know that all the credit card companies are in the process of abandoning signatures completely. My own signature is a genuine mess. I have hand tremors that make it virtually impossible to write anything at all (take propranolol for that). Its never the same twice.

The arguments about voting machines pointed out that if somebody hacks one of those machines, and does it right, there is no record of who did what. I think there has also been, over the years, some evidence this kind of stuff has actually happened.

Here is a link: https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2019/08/10/voting-booth-hack-def-con-orig.cnn-business

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