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#323817 - 04/03/20 07:32 PM Questions
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
there is a site (quora.com) that poses questions for others to answer. They are not specifically political but this one is (and isn't a bad question!):
Conservatives, how do you defend conservatism or the Republican Party when the GOP seems to have a poor and dirty record (Karl Rove, VP Cheney or corporatism/oligopoly, etc) or lack of doing things to help people especially those who struggle?

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#323819 - 04/03/20 07:40 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: jgw
there is a site (quora.com) that poses questions for others to answer. They are not specifically political but this one is (and isn't a bad question!):
Conservatives, how do you defend conservatism or the Republican Party when the GOP seems to have a poor and dirty record (Karl Rove, VP Cheney or corporatism/oligopoly, etc) or lack of doing things to help people especially those who struggle?


Actually, I have a lot of friends who have been booted or suspended from Quora multiple times for merely voicing liberal arguments, in a perfectly civil way.

As to your question: It seems to have devolved into a cult of Trump.
The rest of the ordinary rank and file real conservatives seem to be leaving the GOP in droves and becoming independents.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#323832 - 04/03/20 10:45 PM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: jgw
there is a site (quora.com) that poses questions for others to answer. They are not specifically political but this one is (and isn't a bad question!):
Conservatives, how do you defend conservatism or the Republican Party when the GOP seems to have a poor and dirty record (Karl Rove, VP Cheney or corporatism/oligopoly, etc) or lack of doing things to help people especially those who struggle?


Actually, I have a lot of friends who have been booted or suspended from Quora multiple times for merely voicing liberal arguments, in a perfectly civil way.

As to your question: It seems to have devolved into a cult of Trump.
The rest of the ordinary rank and file real conservatives seem to be leaving the GOP in droves and becoming independents.


I’ve always considered myself to be a Goldwater conservative with some of Perot thrown in later. But what is that belief? I think it can be summed up in three parts or tenets of a traditional conservative. Which by the way is pretty darn close to the classic liberal.

1. Fiscal Responsible – More or less a balance budget. Not spending more than what one takes in. How we get there? If spending needs to be cut, cut it. If taxes need to be raised, raise them. Usually a combination of both is required. Since Jimmy Carter neither major party has come close to being fiscal responsible. Keep in mind I used the word fiscal responsible, not fiscal conservatism which means low taxes while the national debt skyrockets.
2. Small Government – A government that stays out of a citizen’s private business and lives. Such things as abortion, let the woman decide, not government. Gay marriage, let love decide, not government. On this Goldwater was ahead of his time, there was no gay marriage or even talk of it back then. But there was about gays in the military. Goldwater said, “You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight.”
3. Wars – This country should never go to war unless it intends to win it by whatever means it takes and does so quickly. Congress must declare war, no resolution either by congress or the UN. We also should never go to war unless we are directly threatened. Here’s what Goldwater said about Vietnam, “Vietnam is about halfway around the world from Washington. It's as large as the major European nations, with nearly 130,000 square miles... Its ancient recorded history goes back to 111 B.C... We entered (that country) with considerable ignorance. I told Johnson and old colleagues on Capitol Hill that we had two clear choices. Either win the [Vietnam] war in a relatively short time, say within a year, or pull out all our troops and come home.
I’ll add that one needs to be flexible within his ideology, so it meets the situation and the time a situation occurs. Common sense should always come out on top of any type of political ideology. There are times when one needs to spend beyond one’s means when the situation requires it. I always thought when the USSR broke apart and the Warsaw Pact disbanded, so too should have NATO. Mission accomplished. Other relics of the cold war are no more, CENTO, SEATO are gone, why isn’t NATO?

Traditional conservatives have no home among our two major parties anymore. So you’re right about that Jeffrey. Most of us have died away or became independents.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#323850 - 04/04/20 07:37 PM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
that's pretty strange. I have answered a couple of these questions and my answers were liberal and I had no problems at all. I haven't, however, answered any for a while and rarely even read them but they popup every now and then.

I just went to their site and looked. Somebody asked what donald Trump is really like. Here is the first paragraph of the answer:
Mr. Trump reminds me of the child who loves attention, but doesn't know the difference between good attention and bad attention. We all know the type; under most circumstances, that child might be a well behaved, kind, and caring, but he can turn into a monster if he realizes nobody has noticed him for 15 minutes. The key difference is that the child has plenty of time to learn, and Mr. Trump ... well, he's already learned that any attention is good attention, and the American media is to blame for that one.

Not real Trump positive I think?

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#323851 - 04/04/20 08:12 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Trump is like that old showman who thinks there is no such thing as bad publicity. No publicity is bad. Good, bad or indifferent, as long as Trump is the headliner, the star, the most talked about and shown, that's all good in his book.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#323852 - 04/04/20 08:40 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7203
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Trump is like that old showman who thinks there is no such thing as bad publicity.


I predict (under caveat of the current situation) Mr Trump will win the 2020.

So ... I concluded (many disagreed but for me it explained what was happening very well) in the 2016, the media gave Mr Trump some $2B worth of free publicity, because it believed he was a joke of a candidate, and that exposing him for what he was and continues to be, it believed no one in their "right" mind would vote for him. Yeah I understand he is the voice of their discontent .... the voice of bigotry .... and the voice of the carnival barker who would stick it to everything not them.

Press forward to 2020 .... where is the Democrat candidate? The only candidate seen is Mr Trump. Not only does he get the publicity for being occupant of the WH, but he gets the same free publicity of a candidate. It's clear the only thing he comprehends is the state of his personal "fortune". I suspect the Democrat candidate will not have enough time to recover for a vigorous political fight.

Mr Trump wins by default ...
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
Get off the crazy train!!! ... dump Trump

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#323854 - 04/04/20 09:29 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
I think how Trump or should I say how the people view, their perspective of his handling of the CoronaVirus Pandemic will determine whether he wins or loses. Right now Trump's numbers on his handling of this pandemic is in the positive. But I'm sure they will decline slowly the longer this pandemic hangs around. Americans want quick fixes. There isn't one for this pandemic.

I don't think Biden needs to be front and center. Trump being there is enough. This election is all about Trump to begin with, with CoronaVirus, it double down all about Trump. If the people are happy or satisfied with Trump's handling of this, he'll be reelected. If they're not, any opponent will do.

Here's the latest numbers on Trump's handling of the crisis.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls...virus-7088.html

The downward trend has begun. So give it time. No need for hysterics or throwing in the towel.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#323855 - 04/04/20 09:35 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista


I don't think Biden needs to be front and center. Trump being there is enough. This election is all about Trump to begin with, with CoronaVirus, it double down all about Trump.


Unless and until Team Biden have a well thought out plan to deal with CV19, and the other issues, it is best that they stay under the radar, especially given Team Trump's eagerness to deflect responsibility onto the Dems.

Far better the Dems figure out a solid attack plan AND ALSO a solid set of ideas to offer up, than just engaging in some stupid Twitter war.

Besides, Team Bernie IS putting out some solid ideas, might be a good time for the Dems to listen to them a bit more...yes, even Joe should listen.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#323856 - 04/04/20 10:01 PM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista


I don't think Biden needs to be front and center. Trump being there is enough. This election is all about Trump to begin with, with CoronaVirus, it double down all about Trump.


Unless and until Team Biden have a well thought out plan to deal with CV19, and the other issues, it is best that they stay under the radar, especially given Team Trump's eagerness to deflect responsibility onto the Dems.

Far better the Dems figure out a solid attack plan AND ALSO a solid set of ideas to offer up, than just engaging in some stupid Twitter war.

Besides, Team Bernie IS putting out some solid ideas, might be a good time for the Dems to listen to them a bit more...yes, even Joe should listen.

I agree that the Biden team should basically keep quiet at this point. There really isn't anything Biden's team can do anyway, for that matter neither can Sanders team.

This is Trump's test much like the Great Depression was Hoover's. Anyone except Hoover would have won in 1932, it could be the same come this November depending on how the people perceive his response. Hoover failed, he was out of his league. By the people, I mean America as a whole, not just one faction or political party.

Give it time, the time for a positive critique and suggestions hasn't arrived yet. I'm sure it will at sometime in the near future. Best to keep quiet and let Trump have the spotlight for now.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#323863 - 04/05/20 02:01 AM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
I answer questions on Quora. Over a quarter of a million people have read my answers. I do get a lot of requests for answers, but I don't answer the stupid questions or bother with the ones I can't answer. I get a LOT of avocado questions, since I am a grower. But I do know a lot about growing avocados. I also get a lot of medical questions about Covid-19 now. I just repeat stuff from scientific papers and researcher's presentations on the internet, with a lot of caveats. Same as here.

I have been banned once for a bit when somebody took offense from my answer. Apparently it was very easy to get people banned. Trolls were doing that. I think they might have improved that now. One thing I do not like about it, is they offered to pay me to ask "good" questions. After they started that, I saw a lot of obvious attempts by people to make money for questions. Funny thing: I can't recall ever asking a question, but I have read quite a few of other people's answers. I also can tell when students put their homework questions up, and do not answer.
_________________________
God sent Trump.......because God was out of locusts.

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#323883 - 04/05/20 09:11 PM Re: Questions [Re: rporter314]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
So far I have to agree with you. I get about 20 messages from Dems every day. They all end with a request for money. I have set them to spam, they go away for a week and then they are all back. Biden sends me at least two every day - for money.

I can only wonder where the money is going. I do know, however, its not for ads on TV. That, I guess, is not possible. All my congress folk are sending me stuff, they only do that when they are running and the main message is that they too need money (even though they are not on tv either). Apparently the Dems have decided that the campaigns don't start until after the convention and nobody is even sure if there is going to be one or not and, if there is, then when and how becomes the question.

So, all in all, unless they get off their collective butts, We will have another 4 years of the Jackass Trump.

I do, however, admire those who believe that Biden will magically win because Trump is so bad. What I admire about those who believe in miracles is their capacity for hope and faith, its actually kinda inspiring!

Oh, I did see Biden on TV the other night. He was talking what he would do about Covid-19 if he was president. He would, basically, do what every other half way decent president would do when something serious needed to be attended to - appoint somebody to do the job and appoint a group to study and explain what the hell happened. This is what all other presidents have done. Then they can claim success and win the next election.

the Jackass Trump has another plan, based on the firm ground of alternate fact. He has publicly announced the he is not responsible for anything, that the federal government is separate from the United States and under his complete control, and will do little or nothing (it just goes on, and on, and on, and......) the horror is that he owns approximately 40% of the entire American voting public and they admire the process above. In other words 40% of the American voting public has abandoned reality for the Jackass alternate reality. this is being proven in a LOT of ways. The current is their resistance to any suggestion that they should fight against Covid-19 by minding the experts in this reality and, instead, just go down the happy highway of delusion. The sad thing is that we will get to watch as they start to die because of their behavior. I guess there are lessons to learn when you join an alternate reality no matter how much fun you are having (right up to when you are not). Its really quite amazing. This time their very lives are at stake and they (the Trumpies) flat out deny it, even when they see their neighbors on the way to the hospital its not enough proof for them!

ITS FREAKING AMAZING!

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#323921 - 04/06/20 08:10 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
So, all in all, unless they get off their collective butts, We will have another 4 years of the Jackass Trump.

I do, however, admire those who believe that Biden will magically win because Trump is so bad. What I admire about those who believe in miracles is their capacity for hope and faith, its actually kinda inspiring!


The Y2K election dissapointed me. Al Gore should havee been our President

Back in 2004 I believed that Bush was so bad that he would surely lose his bid for re-election. He did not.

As recently as 2016 I thought the Democratic candidate would surely win because she was so obviously superior. She did not.

In the 2018 election I had reason to hope that in the Blue Wave movement Florida would re-elect our Democratic senator and elect a Democratic governor. We did not.

You might say I've lost faith in Democrats. When in power they accomplish nothing and when out of power their opposition is weak.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#323955 - 04/07/20 04:11 PM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger

You might say I've lost faith in Democrats. When in power they accomplish nothing and when out of power their opposition is weak.


Not a good enough reason to allow a cult leader to continue his inexorable path to the Kool-Aid suicide party.

Quote:
As for definitions, a “destructive cult” is an authoritarian pyramid-structured group with someone at the top who claims to know all things and says God is working through him or her. Trump does that as well. Donald Trump is also trying to control people’s behavior, the information they have access to, and their thoughts and emotions, to make them dependent and obedient and under his control. Consider the novel coronavirus pandemic and how Trump has all these followers who do not trust real experts and only take what Trump says to be true. Trump’s followers also don’t believe in science and medicine.


I'd really love to know how this is a safe option to consider under ANY circumstances, let alone the ones we're dealing with right now.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#323956 - 04/07/20 04:19 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
By the way, the federal government will soon provide money directly to U.S. churches to help them pay pastor salaries and utility bills.

Hope you enjoy our new state sponsored religions!
Sure sure, four more years of Trump won't be so bad!
Let's all get on board the Joe Rogan bandwagon because he's so smart. ROTFMOL
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#323958 - 04/07/20 04:31 PM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Hey, don't blame me if your guy is so incompetent that he can't even beat Trump. If he does, fine, but then what?

Everything snaps back to "normal"?

You won, Jeff, your candidate will be running against Trump. Everything from here on out is on his powerful and decisive shoulders. Together we will forge a new path into the future under the wise rule of Joseph Robinette Biden.

Under neoliberal corporate rule the Democratic Party will join hands with Republicans, setting all foolish leftist notions aside as the parties implement government of business by business and for business.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#323961 - 04/07/20 05:25 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Numbers as of today. Nationally Biden is leading Trump by 6, Sanders leading Trump by 3. So what about the swing/deciding states. States Trump won.

Wisconsin Biden leading Trump by 3, Trump over Sanders by 2
Florida Biden and Trump Tied, Trump over Sanders by 6
Michigan Both Biden and Sanders over Trump by 5
Pennsylvania Biden over Trump by 4, Sanders over Trump by 1
North Carolina Biden over Trump by 4, Trump over Sanders by 1
Arizona Biden over Trump by 6, Trump over Sanders by 2
Ohio Biden over Trump by 4, Sanders over Trump by 2

Now these numbers are very dynamic, they change constantly. No doubt in my mind that today Biden has the best chance of defeating Trump. At least is more popular in the swing states. What about some solid blue states? States that Trump has no chance.
California Biden over Trump by 26, Sanders over Trump by 32
New York Biden by 25, Sanders by 30

There are others, but the polls are old. But what I’m seeing is Sanders doing better in the solid blue states against Trump, the more liberal and progressive states which are going blue no matter who the candidate is. That Biden is doing better in the more moderate swing states. One can draw the only conclusion at this point is that Biden stands the better chance of defeating Trump. If the election were held today, Biden would receive 92 more electoral votes than Hillary did with Florida a tie, not counted. Sanders would receive 36 more electoral votes with Florida still going to Trump. Hillary received 227 electoral votes, adding Biden’s 92 to that gives us 319 not counting Florida. Well over the 270 needed to win. Sanders would garner 263. Not enough to win if the election were held today, which it is not.

This is by the numbers. They show Sanders more popular than Biden in solid blue states, the more progressive states which Biden going to win no matter what. In the more moderate states, Biden is the strongest and he wins in some of these states, Sanders would lose if the election were today. What good does it do to win California and New York by an extra million or so each while losing in the swing states?
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#323966 - 04/07/20 05:50 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
As far as I'm concerned Biden will be the next President. I never thought Trump would be re-elected and certainly don't now that the Trainwreck is underway.

His heroic efforts during this difficult time may not be enough to save his presidency. Democrats have vowed to make him a one term president and American lives are being lost to their obstruction.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#323979 - 04/07/20 08:11 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
The numbers look good for Biden today. Trump reverting back to, shall I say being Trump has reversed his upward trend into another downward one. But one must remember that back on 7 Apr 2016 Hillary had an 11 point lead over Trump. But her numbers were weak with 15% of the electorate still undecided. By the end of May Trump had tied her.

She was extra strong in the Northeast, West Coast, but very weak in flyover country. Biden isn't as strong in the Northeast and West Coast, but is stronger in flyover country even though his lead over Trump is smaller at this same juncture. It's where he's stronger that counts, stronger in the swing states than Hillary was.

Winning California by 4 million votes and New York by 2 million didn't help her in the swing states. Biden isn't as strong in either state then Hillary was. But he's much stronger in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Arizona and even in Texas. Believe it or not, Biden trails Trump by just 2 points in Texas.

Will those figures hold, we don't know. But Trump isn't doing himself any good now that he has turned obnoxious and petty during his press conferences on CoronaVirus.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#323989 - 04/07/20 10:25 PM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
As far as I'm concerned Biden will be the next President. I never thought Trump would be re-elected and certainly don't now that the Trainwreck is underway.

His heroic efforts during this difficult time may not be enough to save his presidency. Democrats have vowed to make him a one term president and American lives are being lost to their obstruction.


Except that Trump is beginning to sound like he is seriously considering any tactic available to invalidate or otherwise hamstring the electoral process.

Democrats ‘shouldn’t be allowed to win’ election after his coronavirus response


ALLOWED?? Shouldn't be allowed, as in "making it against the law?"
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#323990 - 04/07/20 10:27 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7203
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
But Trump isn't doing himself any good now that he has turned obnoxious and petty during his press conferences on CoronaVirus.

That is precisely what his supporters love about him .... spit in everyone's face ... because ... well ... he is the greatest etc etc
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
Get off the crazy train!!! ... dump Trump

Top
#323991 - 04/07/20 10:54 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Trump is like that old showman who thinks there is no such thing as bad publicity. No publicity is bad. Good, bad or indifferent, as long as Trump is the headliner, the star, the most talked about and shown, that's all good in his book.


Trump is like Jim Jones, the suicidal leader of The People's Temple.

He is a flat out CULT leader, all the way... Same tactics, same methodology, same everything.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#323996 - 04/07/20 11:16 PM Re: Questions [Re: rporter314]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
But Trump isn't doing himself any good now that he has turned obnoxious and petty during his press conferences on CoronaVirus.

That is precisely what his supporters love about him .... spit in everyone's face ... because ... well ... he is the greatest etc etc


Yes they do. But this goes back to my point about independents. Trump won the White House because he won the independent vote. These swing voters disliked Hillary more than they disliked Trump. History has shown voters usually don't vote for someone they dislike.

Right now you have 27% of independents liking Trump, 40% dislike him with 18% who neither like nor dislike him and 14% not sure. Question 110

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/p8nwhxp50n/econTabReport.pdf

The main reason for their dislike of Trump isn't his policies. They're fairly split evenly, for some, against some. It's his obnoxious, uncouth personality along with his very unpresidential behavior.

One has to remember Trump won the independent vote in 2016 with only 46% voting for him, Hillary received 42% while 12% voted third party, against both. That's some 9 million voters who were so disgusted with both major party candidates they choose a third name on the ballot that they knew nothing about. That they knew couldn't win, but voted for them anyway because their last name wasn't Trump nor Clinton

If you think about that, 54% of independents voted against Trump, 58% against Hillary. Biden is like more than Hillary ever was by independents.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#323999 - 04/08/20 12:23 AM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Jeffrey, cult leader or not, this election will boil down to how independents, swing voters, the less to non-partisan, non-affiliated vote views the two major party candidates. Which one they like more than the other.

As of 22 Mar Gallup puts party affiliation at 30% Republican, 30% Democrat, 36% independent. The largest voting block is independents. Now independents can be broken down into three groups, independents lean Republican, independents lean Democratic, pure or true independents with no leans.

Now if you're a statistical nut like me, that boils down to 39% of independent now leaning Democratic, 34% leaning Republican with 27% with no leans. If you add them all up, you'll have 44% of the electorate made up of Democrats and Democratic leaning independents vs. 42% of the electorate made up of Republicans and Republican leaning independents. That leaves 14% of the electorate that are classified as true or pure independents with no leans. They ones you must convince to vote for your candidate. It also shows that independents as a whole are siding with the Democrats although not enough to guarantee election of the Democratic candidate. So winning or nominating a candidate attractive to these independents is important if one wants to win.

Hillary wasn't, she lost. Gore wasn't, he lost, Carter wasn't in 1980, he lost and so too did Humphrey. 1980 really doesn't count as Reagan received 27% of the Democratic base vote when on average a Republican candidate receives less than 10%. Even Democrats had lost faith in Jimmy in 1980.

If you want to know or have a good idea how an election will turnout, you have to look at the candidates through a non-partisan, clear set of glasses, not tinted red nor blue. Easier said than done.
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#324036 - 04/08/20 07:55 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Originally Posted By: perotista
Jeffrey, cult leader or not,


Sorry, but it is actually impossible to ignore that aspect.
Or rather, ignore it at your own peril, as large swaths of the German population did once upon a time.
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#324038 - 04/08/20 08:37 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
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Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
When you've been around as long as I have, you hear that about almost every president. At least since Reagan. The opposite party says the same or something very close. Republicans were calling those who followed Obama as Obama cultist or Obamabots.

So if one has a differing political view, a very partisan political view, is highly loyal to a political party while think the other evil, be it the president or political party or both. That's not uncommon.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#324053 - 04/08/20 11:20 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7203
Loc: Highlands, Tx
well if we had election by popular vote your analysis may be meaningful, but as we have an electoral college ... not so much. As you said and as you well know, it doesn't matter if CA or NY votes overwhelmingly for the Democrat candidate, what really matters is the one vote which makes a Democrat win in PA.

I am not crunching anything at this time. I'll wait until Oct. Remember it was only 11 days out when Dir Comey killed Sec Clinton's bid.

Where is the electoral map?
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#324054 - 04/08/20 11:23 PM Re: Questions [Re: rporter314]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Originally Posted By: rporter314
well if we had election by popular vote your analysis may be meaningful, but as we have an electoral college ... not so much. As you said and as you well know, it doesn't matter if CA or NY votes overwhelmingly for the Democrat candidate, what really matters is the one vote which makes a Democrat win in PA.

I am not crunching anything at this time. I'll wait until Oct. Remember it was only 11 days out when Dir Comey killed Sec Clinton's bid.

Where is the electoral map?


Clinton did it to herself. I've posted the numerous reasons so many times, but it seems Clinton supporters just want to ignore them and put all the blame on someone other than the person who caused her own defeat.

So be it.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#324056 - 04/08/20 11:27 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Originally Posted By: perotista
When you've been around as long as I have, you hear that about almost every president. At least since Reagan. The opposite party says the same or something very close. Republicans were calling those who followed Obama as Obama cultist or Obamabots.

So if one has a differing political view, a very partisan political view, is highly loyal to a political party while think the other evil, be it the president or political party or both. That's not uncommon.


How about when it's a person who spent most of their adult life as a Moonie, a real actual cult?

Quote:
On the afternoon of Nov. 18, 1978, Jim Jones called his followers to the central pavilion of Jonestown, a sprawling outpost in the jungles of Guyana, and ordered them to drink a lethal mixture of cyanide and fruit punch. Over 900 people perished that day, more than a third of them children. As he lay dying of a bullet wound to the head—a less painful way to go than cyanide and one that he probably orchestrated—Jones told his followers that it was “all the media’s fault. Don’t believe them.”


Quote:
As I argue in my upcoming book, The Cult of Trump: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How The President Uses Mind Control (Simon & Schuster), Trump has gotten where he is today in large part because he has exploited tactics straight out of that playbook. These include his grandiose claims, his practice of sowing confusion, his demand for absolute loyalty, his tendency to lie and create alternative “facts” and realities, his shunning and belittling of critics and ex-believers, and his cultivating of an “us versus them” mindset. These are the same methods used by Moon, Jones, and other cult leaders such as L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology), David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Lyndon LaRouche (LaRouche PAC), and, most recently, convicted trafficking felon Keith Raniere (NXVIM).

Take It From a Former Moonie: Trump Is a Cult Leader

I'm sure if you stick around long enough we will hear from some former Scientologists, too.
And I have a lot of real actual personal knowledge of that bunch.

No...sorry, this is not just partisan hackery.
I am actually envious of your position...you never did tell us what you do that allows you to be a secure one-income traditional family that echoes memories of decades past.

But it's definitely not what forms the bulk of today's working class families. You are lucky, you are fortunate, you deserve praise and respect for your ability to have secured your blessings and good fortune.

But in this day and age - - you and your lovely family are the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
And you can take that to the bank because today four in ten working American families cannot cover a four hundred dollar expense even if they are a double income family.
I've linked to that often enough that it's easy to find.

You can afford to laugh it off as mere partisan hackery because with your secure position, little if anything Trump does will negatively impact your future.

And like I said, I am mildly envious, but I mean that as a compliment.
Thing is, it also means that your frame of reference is distorted.
You can't possibly know what it means to be directly impacted.
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#324072 - 04/09/20 12:57 AM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Clinton did it to herself. I've posted the numerous reasons so many times, but it seems Clinton supporters just want to ignore them and put all the blame on someone other than the person who caused her own defeat.

As a Clinton supporter I have to agree. We knew she was a crappy candidate going into the race, we knew Republicans had her number.

Had she been elected she would have done a great job, but she was never able to overcome the baggage and her own ineptitude at campaigning.
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#324073 - 04/09/20 01:13 AM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Take It From a Former Moonie: Trump Is a Cult Leader


I don't necessarily trust the word of a former Moonie. It's like trusting a former Republican.
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#324074 - 04/09/20 01:13 AM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
When you've been around as long as I have, you hear that about almost every president. At least since Reagan. The opposite party says the same or something very close. Republicans were calling those who followed Obama as Obama cultist or Obamabots.

So if one has a differing political view, a very partisan political view, is highly loyal to a political party while think the other evil, be it the president or political party or both. That's not uncommon.


How about when it's a person who spent most of their adult life as a Moonie, a real actual cult?

Quote:
On the afternoon of Nov. 18, 1978, Jim Jones called his followers to the central pavilion of Jonestown, a sprawling outpost in the jungles of Guyana, and ordered them to drink a lethal mixture of cyanide and fruit punch. Over 900 people perished that day, more than a third of them children. As he lay dying of a bullet wound to the head—a less painful way to go than cyanide and one that he probably orchestrated—Jones told his followers that it was “all the media’s fault. Don’t believe them.”


Quote:
As I argue in my upcoming book, The Cult of Trump: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How The President Uses Mind Control (Simon & Schuster), Trump has gotten where he is today in large part because he has exploited tactics straight out of that playbook. These include his grandiose claims, his practice of sowing confusion, his demand for absolute loyalty, his tendency to lie and create alternative “facts” and realities, his shunning and belittling of critics and ex-believers, and his cultivating of an “us versus them” mindset. These are the same methods used by Moon, Jones, and other cult leaders such as L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology), David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Lyndon LaRouche (LaRouche PAC), and, most recently, convicted trafficking felon Keith Raniere (NXVIM).

Take It From a Former Moonie: Trump Is a Cult Leader

I'm sure if you stick around long enough we will hear from some former Scientologists, too.
And I have a lot of real actual personal knowledge of that bunch.

No...sorry, this is not just partisan hackery.
I am actually envious of your position...you never did tell us what you do that allows you to be a secure one-income traditional family that echoes memories of decades past.

But it's definitely not what forms the bulk of today's working class families. You are lucky, you are fortunate, you deserve praise and respect for your ability to have secured your blessings and good fortune.

But in this day and age - - you and your lovely family are the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
And you can take that to the bank because today four in ten working American families cannot cover a four hundred dollar expense even if they are a double income family.
I've linked to that often enough that it's easy to find.

You can afford to laugh it off as mere partisan hackery because with your secure position, little if anything Trump does will negatively impact your future.

And like I said, I am mildly envious, but I mean that as a compliment.
Thing is, it also means that your frame of reference is distorted.
You can't possibly know what it means to be directly impacted.


Maybe my frame of reference is distorted. But I think it more as being a political realist. I don't belong to any political party, I'm not very ideological and surely not partisan as I vote for candidates from both major parties and from third parties as well. For whom I deem the best candidate regardless of party.

There's an old saying, Politics is the art of the possible. I study the electorate, especially independents, swing voters and have a fairly good record determining what is possible and what isn't. At least when it comes to payback for trying to do the impossible or even succeeding against the majorities wishes. 2010 was an example of succeeding with the agenda, but losing control of any agenda for the next six years, six wasted years. You have to be able to know how far to go and not go over that line. Going over means you'll going to pay dearly in the next election which is usually the first midterm.

If you want to think of Trump as a cult leader, be my guess. But in the end it isn't what you or I think of Trump, it is what those who go to the polls in November think. That is what I try my best to figure out, who wins in November.

Don't worry, I'm not voting for Trump, I'll vote for Biden. I always liked Joe, when he was a senator and as VP. It's a shame he isn't 10 years younger as I always said the Democrats needed this year was a fresh young face, if from flyover country, so much the better. They've had pretty good luck with that. Obama, Illinois 2008, Bill Clinton, Arkansas, 1992, Jimmy Carter, Georgia, 1976.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#324078 - 04/09/20 01:42 AM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida

Quote:
You can afford to laugh it off as mere partisan hackery because with your secure position, little if anything Trump does will negatively impact your future.

Luckily I'm in the same boat, no matter what Trump does I will(probably) continue to receive $1233 a month. You can be mildly envious of that too if you choose. It's pretty great having that big bundle of cash show up every month. If I'm careful there might a few bucks at the end of the month to buy food with.
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#324081 - 04/09/20 01:49 AM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger

Quote:
You can afford to laugh it off as mere partisan hackery because with your secure position, little if anything Trump does will negatively impact your future.

Luckily I'm in the same boat, no matter what Trump does I will(probably) continue to receive $1233 a month. You can be mildly envious of that too if you choose. It's pretty great having that big bundle of cash show up every month. If I'm careful there might a few bucks at the end of the month to buy food with.


Don't be so sure about that money showing up every month.
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#324083 - 04/09/20 01:58 AM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
When social security checks stop showing up it's the end of whomever might be President.
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#324085 - 04/09/20 02:06 AM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
When social security checks stop showing up it's the end of whomever might be President.


Nope. Not with the propaganda juggernaut to end the entire social safety net. You're not even considering just how far the bottom really is with Trump.
You think Social Security is safe.
A lot of people think Trump will start a war, crash the economy or sit idly by while a pandemic rages and people die.
He's two for three now.

Quote:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

-- Joseph Goebbels, Master propagandist of the Nazi regime and dictator of its cultural life for twelve years

The lie?

Social Security is a giant ponzi scheme that will drive up the debt and bankrupt the country, and it's SOCIALISM!
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#324086 - 04/09/20 02:09 AM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
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Loc: Whittier, California
All he needs is his propaganda machine and his accordion.

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#324087 - 04/09/20 02:16 AM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
If I buy a pizzeria
and three years later it
runs out of napkins, gloves,
hair nets and pizza flour...

It's the fault of the previous
owner.

So far, Trump has gotten a ton of mileage out of pounding that theory.
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#324089 - 04/09/20 03:22 AM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7203
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Gee I was not a Clinton supporter. I did think she was infinitely more competent than Mr Trump. I was forced to vote for her.

Now about your reasons ... Sec Clinton was leading in national polls by a significant margin on the day Dir Comey made his statement. I said it immediately following the presser, that could have very well ended her campaign. And like the proverbial feces in a well her numbers dropped to about even. Now you can claim all you want that she was a terrible candidate, which was valid, but as a number cruncher you have to recognize the correlation between Comey and her drop in numbers (Oct 23, she lead by 12% but by Nov 7 her numbers had dropped to 2.2%) ... numbers don't drop like that if the candidate is bad .... they drop like that because of something dramatic happened ... if not, then your analysis or your interpretation of the numbers has become suspect
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#324093 - 04/09/20 06:22 AM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
A huge number of voters are either collecting Social Security or counting on it for their upcoming retirement. Many of them actually have nothing else. You cut or kill Social Security and you WILL lose the next election. 68% of those 65 and older voted in 2018. 38% of women and 33% of men age 18-29 voted. It's still the third rail of American politics.

Doesn't matter if they are FOX News watchers and staunch Republicans. When you cut their income, you are out of there.

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#324109 - 04/09/20 05:25 PM Re: Questions [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
A huge number of voters are either collecting Social Security or counting on it for their upcoming retirement. Many of them actually have nothing else. You cut or kill Social Security and you WILL lose the next election. 68% of those 65 and older voted in 2018. 38% of women and 33% of men age 18-29 voted. It's still the third rail of American politics.

Doesn't matter if they are FOX News watchers and staunch Republicans. When you cut their income, you are out of there.


Nope...sorry but I disagree and the reason is, most of those voters won't recognize what's happening until it is way too late.
First, if they watch Fox, I guarantee you Fox will make it sound like they are SAVING Social Security, which is precisely what they HAVE been saying all along.
Every single time a Repuke gets on TV and announces plans or intentions to cut SS, it gets framed as "SAVING SOCIAL SECURITY" and the yokels buy the scam.

Look at how many people did nothing when their Obamacare got cut.
It wasn't until they went to upgrade, purchase or just renew that they found out what happened, and then it was too late.

Or...you get this:

"I thought the President was cutting (blank) only for those moochers who don't deserve it...you know, the libruls and commies, the welfare queens...those people. I didn't think he would hurt me, because I am a loyal conservative. I thought they were protecting us."
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#324111 - 04/09/20 06:51 PM Re: Questions [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Doesn't matter if they are FOX News watchers and staunch Republicans. When you cut their income, you are out of there.


'at's the deal right there, old people like me might be stupid as f*ck but when the check doesn't show up there isn't a meaner and more vindictive demographic on the planet.

Trump can't snap his tiny fingers and do whatever he wants as much as Jeffery might believe it's so. Any changes like that are going to need the approval of congress.
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#324121 - 04/09/20 11:13 PM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Doesn't matter if they are FOX News watchers and staunch Republicans. When you cut their income, you are out of there.


'at's the deal right there, old people like me might be stupid as f*ck but when the check doesn't show up there isn't a meaner and more vindictive demographic on the planet.

Trump can't snap his tiny fingers and do whatever he wants as much as Jeffery might believe it's so. Any changes like that are going to need the approval of congress.


With Mitch in control, no problem.
And don't forget, Trump has a yuge mushroom boner over the fact that Viktor Orban handed himself Rule by Decree last week.

Then Twumpy won't even need Congress.
I know, I know, none of you think such a thing can be possible.

It Can't Happen Here
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#324134 - 04/10/20 02:44 AM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
Livetoride Offline
journeyman

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 628
Loc: Tennessee
John Grisham wrote "The Appeal" several years ago. It was Chemical company in Mississippi that appealed a lower court decision all the way to the MS supreme court. The chemical company, clearly liable, needed one more vote on the high court. The company hired a guy to go out and recruit a candidate. A young white guy with children, mediocre lawyer at best. No doubt, a sunday school teacher and the chemical company prevailed. I see this going on now more than ever. When the far right controls the Judiciary, many will revolt, but it'll be too late.
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#324142 - 04/10/20 06:59 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
"another election" seems to be a belief held by all. How about "no more elections" because I fear that if Trump gets another term that is, exactly, what could easily happen. If he rids us of SS he just won't give a damn and will will go far in fixing the national debt along the way. If anybody thinks that Trump gives a damn they would would be terribly wrong. Add in that he already OWNS about 40% of the voting public and it gets a bit worrysome. Add in that only approximately 55% of the American voting public actually votes and it gets a bit more worrysome. Now, one more consideration, Hitler, when he took over, had the support of almost 40% of the German voters (slightly less than Trump's current popularity)

Considering everything, it tends to get terrifying. I suspect everybody who doesn't adore Mr. Trump, a whole lot, better be thinking it all over and be voting for anybody but Trump. The normal lackadaisical voting of the American public will be, I think, seriously tested this time around. This is REALLY a situation when I do not want to say "I told you so"...........

Those who refuse to vote for Biden, against Trump, are flirting with fire. I am sure those who did are going to feel real bad, especially if ICE changes its buttons to little skulls and come knocking on their doors.


Edited by jgw (04/10/20 07:05 PM)

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#324145 - 04/10/20 09:00 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: jgw
"another election" seems to be a belief held by all. How about "no more elections" because I fear that if Trump gets another term that is, exactly, what could easily happen. If he rids us of SS he just won't give a damn and will will go far in fixing the national debt along the way. If anybody thinks that Trump gives a damn they would would be terribly wrong. Add in that he already OWNS about 40% of the voting public and it gets a bit worrysome. Add in that only approximately 55% of the American voting public actually votes and it gets a bit more worrysome. Now, one more consideration, Hitler, when he took over, had the support of almost 40% of the German voters (slightly less than Trump's current popularity)

Considering everything, it tends to get terrifying. I suspect everybody who doesn't adore Mr. Trump, a whole lot, better be thinking it all over and be voting for anybody but Trump. The normal lackadaisical voting of the American public will be, I think, seriously tested this time around. This is REALLY a situation when I do not want to say "I told you so"...........

Those who refuse to vote for Biden, against Trump, are flirting with fire. I am sure those who did are going to feel real bad, especially if ICE changes its buttons to little skulls and come knocking on their doors.


The man was already talking like he's about to declare martial law this morning. He claims that he has the authority and the power to order states to rescind their stay-at-home rules.
Think about it, he's basically saying he can order Americans "back to work" in the middle of a deadly pandemic.

Sounding and acting more and more like General Jaruzelski every minute of every day.
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#324148 - 04/10/20 11:06 PM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
I heard basically the same thing you're saying about Trump, some Republicans were saying about Obama. Some were totally convinced Obama would find a way to postpone or do away with the 2016 elections and make himself president for life.

If you were on DP during that time frame you probably remember them.

As an aside, it seems to me the left has always wanted to do away with states rights and bring all the power to the federal government. Now it seems your afraid Trump and the federal government will use its power over the states. There are times I wonder if absolute power is fine and good as long as the president and government is controlled by my political party and really, really bad if the other party has the presidency.

In other words, having the federal government over ride states rights is fine and good as long as the federal government is using its force to accomplish my agenda. The states ought to have their rights when the federal government is using their power to enforce the other party's agenda on the states.

This is one of my main reasons why I never belonged to or associated with either major party. Way too many times I have seen if I do it, its good, but if the other guy does exactly the same thing it's bad. All I want is consistency.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#324150 - 04/10/20 11:13 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
I heard basically the same thing you're saying about Trump, some Republicans were saying about Obama. Some were totally convinced Obama would find a way to postpone or do away with the 2016 elections and make himself president for life.


Show me a single example where Obama said or did anything in that vein.
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#324182 - 04/11/20 02:03 AM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Here's exactly what I said, "I heard basically the same thing you're saying about Trump, some Republicans were saying about Obama. Some were totally convinced Obama would find a way to postpone or do away with the 2016 elections and make himself president for life."

I never said that Obama said that, I said Some Republicans.

I also added if you were on DP back then, you'd probably remember them.
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#324184 - 04/11/20 02:29 AM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


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There's always talk like that about presidents, it gets more traction now that the internet can spread bullshyte at a rate faster than the speed of light.
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#324185 - 04/11/20 03:17 AM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Originally Posted By: perotista
Here's exactly what I said, "I heard basically the same thing you're saying about Trump, some Republicans were saying about Obama. Some were totally convinced Obama would find a way to postpone or do away with the 2016 elections and make himself president for life."

I never said that Obama said that, I said Some Republicans.

I also added if you were on DP back then, you'd probably remember them.


And that's the fundamental difference.
Unlike Obama, Trump IS on record as expressing much more than wistful thoughts of hanging onto power by extraordinary means.
His defenders insist he's just joking.
Trump does not joke.

There are Republicans who are convinced he will not leave in November if he loses, never mind everyone else. Max Boot is on record as being somewhat of the mindset that Trump will attempt an all-out effort at denying the legitimacy of any election that does not show victory by a margin of fifty electoral votes or more.
Basically, almost anything short of a landslide and folks like Boot agree he will try to tie it up in courts for as long as he can.

Yes, I AM aware that his term runs out next Jan anwyay, however in the interim it's possible he can entertain all kinds of scorched Earth gambits designed to cripple the country further.

In 2014 he said in a TV interview that he thought crashing the economy would help him get his way. He wasn't joking then either.
Trump does not joke.

Comparing Trump to Obama is comparing wolves and tangerines, so you might consider just letting it go, because it's a failed analogy from the git-go and always was.

PS: My oldest brother screamed about Jade Helm and Obama Martial Law for the better part of the year.
I LIVE less than an eighth of a mile from the Wal Mart in Pico Rivera CA that he claimed was a key FEMA point of operations.
I have a good friend who is a divorcee who was living in his RV in that parking lot the entire time.
He never saw ANYTHING.

Wolves and tangerines.
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#324186 - 04/11/20 03:18 AM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Originally Posted By: Greger
There's always talk like that about presidents, it gets more traction now that the internet can spread bullshyte at a rate faster than the speed of light.


Not till Newt and Denny Hastert got into power.
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#324188 - 04/11/20 03:28 AM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: perotista
I heard basically the same thing you're saying about Trump, some Republicans were saying about Obama. Some were totally convinced Obama would find a way to postpone or do away with the 2016 elections and make himself president for life.

If you were on DP during that time frame you probably remember them.


Yup. I remember my wife's grandfather earnestly warning me about this.



Quote:
As an aside, it seems to me the left has always wanted to do away with states rights and bring all the power to the federal government. Now it seems your afraid Trump and the federal government will use its power over the states. There are times I wonder if absolute power is fine and good as long as the president and government is controlled by my political party and really, really bad if the other party has the presidency.

In other words, having the federal government over ride states rights is fine and good as long as the federal government is using its force to accomplish my agenda. The states ought to have their rights when the federal government is using their power to enforce the other party's agenda on the states.

This is one of my main reasons why I never belonged to or associated with either major party. Way too many times I have seen if I do it, its good, but if the other guy does exactly the same thing it's bad. All I want is consistency.



In a nutshell. If it's that terrible when someone from the other party wins the Presidency.... maybe the Presidency has too much power in and of itself.
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#324189 - 04/11/20 03:29 AM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Greger
There's always talk like that about presidents, it gets more traction now that the internet can spread bullshyte at a rate faster than the speed of light.


Not till Newt and Denny Hastert got into power.


You misspelled FDR, there. wink
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#324190 - 04/11/20 03:33 AM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Here's exactly what I said, "I heard basically the same thing you're saying about Trump, some Republicans were saying about Obama. Some were totally convinced Obama would find a way to postpone or do away with the 2016 elections and make himself president for life."

I never said that Obama said that, I said Some Republicans.

I also added if you were on DP back then, you'd probably remember them.


And that's the fundamental difference.
Unlike Obama, Trump IS on record as expressing much more than wistful thoughts of hanging onto power by extraordinary means


Here you go:

https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morrissey...ident-of-china/

https://pjmedia.com/blog/obama-claims-hes-not-a-dictator-he-just-wishes-that-he-was

https://startthinkingright.wordpress.com...na-and-so-do-i/

PLENTY of people took him seriously about that, too. And they looked like fools. Cmon, man, you're smarter than that.


Quote:
PS: My oldest brother screamed about Jade Helm and Obama Martial Law for the better part of the year.


And you sound like him now. Breathe, man. smile Take a step back. The country survived 8 years of the Atheist Muslim Kenyan Communist, and it will survive 4 or even 8 years of the Nazi Libertarian Orange Warmongerer smile


Edited by CPWILL (04/11/20 03:35 AM)
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#324193 - 04/11/20 03:40 AM Re: Questions [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
And you sound like him now. Breathe, man. Take a step back. The country survived 8 years of the Atheist Muslim Kenyan Communist, and it will survive 4 or even 8 years of the Nazi Libertarian Orange Warmongerer

Despite your awkward political leanings you seem to be a man with good sense.
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#324194 - 04/11/20 03:44 AM Re: Questions [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Originally Posted By: CPWILL


You misspelled FDR, there. wink


Except in FDR's case, The Business Plot actually was in the planning stages.
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#324195 - 04/11/20 03:45 AM Re: Questions [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Registered: 08/03/04
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Originally Posted By: CPWILL


And you sound like him now. Breathe, man. smile Take a step back. The country survived 8 years of the Atheist Muslim Kenyan Communist, and it will survive 4 or even 8 years of the Nazi Libertarian Orange Warmongerer smile


Nice concern trolling you got there.
So if you're so sure, vote for the guy. You might get lucky.
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#324198 - 04/11/20 04:27 AM Re: Questions [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL


And you sound like him now. Breathe, man. smile Take a step back. The country survived 8 years of the Atheist Muslim Kenyan Communist, and it will survive 4 or even 8 years of the Nazi Libertarian Orange Warmongerer smile


Assumes facts not in evidence.

And the Nectarine Nero was struggling when times were good. He's going to s*** the bed.
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#324208 - 04/11/20 01:12 PM Re: Questions [Re: CPWILL]
perotista Offline
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Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
I totally agree, the presidency does have way too much power. Now that is the fault of congress itself as over the years, congress has ceded more and more of its Constitutional powers to the presidency and other government agencies and departments.

Two main reasons, those in congress don't like to make hard decisions. Especially decisions that might make voters angry at them. Better to give up that power so when reelection time roles around, congress can say, don't blame me, blame the president, blame the fed, the irs, blame some other government agency. We had nothing to do with it.

the second is those in congress that are of the same party of the president, the administration, trying to give the president everything he wants, try to give him more and more power. Those congress critters of the same party as the president are more part of the administration than the institution of Congress. We don't have a Speaker of the House like a Sam Rayburn or a Mike McCormick or even Carl Albert who would tell a president of their own party, "Hell No, that power belongs to us or you aren't getting that without our approval."

Since then congress has been more than willing if the president is of their own party to give the president everything he wants and even more and more power. Even if that power once belonged to congress.
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#324210 - 04/11/20 02:45 PM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
And you sound like him now. Breathe, man. Take a step back. The country survived 8 years of the Atheist Muslim Kenyan Communist, and it will survive 4 or even 8 years of the Nazi Libertarian Orange Warmongerer

Despite your awkward political leanings you seem to be a man with good sense.


laugh Thanks, man laugh. Compliments from the "other side" are the best, because they are the ones you know are truly felt smile
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#324211 - 04/11/20 02:46 PM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL


And you sound like him now. Breathe, man. smile Take a step back. The country survived 8 years of the Atheist Muslim Kenyan Communist, and it will survive 4 or even 8 years of the Nazi Libertarian Orange Warmongerer smile


Nice concern trolling you got there.
So if you're so sure, vote for the guy. You might get lucky.


No trolling involved, man. You've been decent to me, and this isn't good for you.




But as for voting for Trump? laugh Not F'ing Likely laugh


Edited by CPWILL (04/11/20 02:46 PM)
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#324212 - 04/11/20 02:47 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 336
Originally Posted By: perotista
I totally agree, the presidency does have way too much power. Now that is the fault of congress itself as over the years, congress has ceded more and more of its Constitutional powers to the presidency and other government agencies and departments.

Two main reasons, those in congress don't like to make hard decisions. Especially decisions that might make voters angry at them. Better to give up that power so when reelection time roles around, congress can say, don't blame me, blame the president, blame the fed, the irs, blame some other government agency. We had nothing to do with it.

the second is those in congress that are of the same party of the president, the administration, trying to give the president everything he wants, try to give him more and more power. Those congress critters of the same party as the president are more part of the administration than the institution of Congress. We don't have a Speaker of the House like a Sam Rayburn or a Mike McCormick or even Carl Albert who would tell a president of their own party, "Hell No, that power belongs to us or you aren't getting that without our approval."

Since then congress has been more than willing if the president is of their own party to give the president everything he wants and even more and more power. Even if that power once belonged to congress.


Yeah, Imma need you to stop writing posts like this and making the rest of us look less well-thought-out by comparison.


Edited by CPWILL (04/11/20 02:48 PM)
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#324223 - 04/11/20 04:51 PM Re: Questions [Re: CPWILL]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: perotista
I totally agree, the presidency does have way too much power. Now that is the fault of congress itself as over the years, congress has ceded more and more of its Constitutional powers to the presidency and other government agencies and departments.

Two main reasons, those in congress don't like to make hard decisions. Especially decisions that might make voters angry at them. Better to give up that power so when reelection time roles around, congress can say, don't blame me, blame the president, blame the fed, the irs, blame some other government agency. We had nothing to do with it.

the second is those in congress that are of the same party of the president, the administration, trying to give the president everything he wants, try to give him more and more power. Those congress critters of the same party as the president are more part of the administration than the institution of Congress. We don't have a Speaker of the House like a Sam Rayburn or a Mike McCormick or even Carl Albert who would tell a president of their own party, "Hell No, that power belongs to us or you aren't getting that without our approval."

Since then congress has been more than willing if the president is of their own party to give the president everything he wants and even more and more power. Even if that power once belonged to congress.


Yeah, Imma need you to stop writing posts like this and making the rest of us look less well-thought-out by comparison.


LOL, I can't help myself. I really don't care for either major party. If you go back through history you'll find the Democrats in congress tried to give Obama as much power as possible, Republicans opposed that. When Bush was president, the Republicans wanted to give him more power while the Democrats opposed that. Today, it's back to the GOP wanting and trying to give Trump more power. It's been that way going back to Watergate. Only immediately after Watergate did the congress try to regain some of its power it had ceded to the presidency over the years. Congress didn't accomplish much in that task.

What I find interesting is that Democrats in congress were more of a hindrance to Jimmy Carter than the Republicans were. Signs of the times back then I suppose. But that was when Carl Albert was Speaker, the last Speaker that was protective of congress's power.
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#324224 - 04/11/20 05:04 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17387
Originally Posted By: perotista
I totally agree, the presidency does have way too much power. Now that is the fault of congress itself as over the years, congress has ceded more and more of its Constitutional powers to the presidency and other government agencies and departments.

Two main reasons, those in congress don't like to make hard decisions. Especially decisions that might make voters angry at them. Better to give up that power so when reelection time roles around, congress can say, don't blame me, blame the president, blame the fed, the irs, blame some other government agency. We had nothing to do with it.

the second is those in congress that are of the same party of the president, the administration, trying to give the president everything he wants, try to give him more and more power. Those congress critters of the same party as the president are more part of the administration than the institution of Congress. We don't have a Speaker of the House like a Sam Rayburn or a Mike McCormick or even Carl Albert who would tell a president of their own party, "Hell No, that power belongs to us or you aren't getting that without our approval."

Since then congress has been more than willing if the president is of their own party to give the president everything he wants and even more and more power. Even if that power once belonged to congress.
I so thoroughly agree with that post I will merely acknowledge it and say bravo.

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#324228 - 04/11/20 05:28 PM Re: Questions [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline


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ANd so...this begs the question, how do we get back to where we want to be and where do we want to be anyway?
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#324232 - 04/11/20 05:41 PM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10151
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Originally Posted By: Greger
...how do we get back to where we want to be...

I think that this has always been a mythical place. We forget that we've never gotten to be where would be best.

It should be the premier question for all of us to figure out, and agree to pursue, where we ought to go. But there is so much delusion and dishonesty in people that we (society as a whole) can't even tolerate a reasoned discussion about it.
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#324237 - 04/11/20 06:15 PM Re: Questions [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 593
Interesting, being an old fart, I remember a time when both major party's goal was a prosperous, secure and free America. Only the path to obtain that goal was a different. A time when neither party thought the other party was public enemy number one.

I don't think we can get back to where we want to be with both parties dead set on destroy the other. With both parties automatically opposing anything and every that is the other party's idea, proposal, legislation etc. without any regards to the merit of them.

I agree, a reasoned discussion will never take place. In today's polarized, ultra partisan era, the great divide, what's good for America, the country as a whole, everyone, everything, gets lost in an attempt by both parties to gain a political advantage over the other even if it hurts the country in the long run.

I'm very much the cynic when it comes to this and to our present day major parties.
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#324259 - 04/12/20 03:10 AM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
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I say make Mr Trump Master of the Universe and give everything to the plutocratic kleptocracy ... frack America and frack it good.
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#324276 - 04/12/20 03:27 PM Re: Questions [Re: perotista]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I remember a time when both major party's goal was a prosperous, secure and free America.


Fat chance on that, when the President owes Putin "some favors". Who would have believed it just a few years ago that it would be the Republican Party that sold out America to the Russians? They have been screaming about liberals getting friendly with socialists for decades and decades. I'm beginning to think that was all a Big Lie.

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#324282 - 04/12/20 05:18 PM Re: Questions [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


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Registered: 11/24/06
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Russia's not so bad these days and will probably soon surpass the US in basic freedoms. Even they have single payer healthcare and I wouldn't be surprised to see them move towards free higher education soon. The oligarchs know that the best way to keep the people complacent is to throw them a bone now and again while you repeatedly gang rape them.

American politicians haven't yet learned that.

And the f*cking continues...
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#324295 - 04/12/20 07:20 PM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
China has, and is, proving that supporting higher education and making it available is very good for the nation. Since they embarked on their quest they are now doing their own inventing and doing it well. Huawei and 5g is one of the results of their support of higher education. I tend to believe that we have banned Huawei to let us try and catch up with 5g. I know, its building out, but China was first with this one, and several others.

We, on the other hand, have, pretty much, priced our higher education out of the range of most students whilst creating huge student loan debt. We are, now, actually losing foreign students to Chinese universities! Its getting even more interesting as we are now sending students to China for the higher education!

We need doctors but it costs to much to produce one.

One can go on and on about all of this but, when it comes to higher education, we are failing bigtime and its gonna cost!

I have always found it interesting. Our politicians have always found a way to attack any social programs. I guess I should say Republican politicians but there are also Dems who will back their plays. In Washington state our state legislature so cut funds to our main insane asylum that it was being run with minimum wage, non educated. It was so bad that the feds actually shut it down. Our Legislature also doesn't care to really support our higher education. This is social stuff so it is considered evil. Wierd.... They also go after police departments, libraries, etc. They never say they are socialist but such are treated to attack on a regular basis. What I really don't understand is why they can do that with nary a whimper from them that proclaim their support.

Strange times...............

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#324299 - 04/12/20 08:33 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We need doctors but it costs to much to produce one.


And yet poor communist Cuba which has struggled under US economic sanctions for half a century produces lots of extra doctors that it exports worldwide wherever doctors are needed.

It's a big old goofy world!
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#324314 - 04/12/20 11:23 PM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
We need doctors but it costs to much to produce one.


And yet poor communist Cuba which has struggled under US economic sanctions for half a century produces lots of extra doctors that it exports worldwide wherever doctors are needed.

It's a big old goofy world!


This is an excellent point.

Doctors DO cost, but Cuba can afford them and we can't.

Which states the priorities of the two countries as clearly as anything else.
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#324322 - 04/13/20 01:52 AM Re: Questions [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
I remember a time when both major party's goal was a prosperous, secure and free America.


Fat chance on that, when the President owes Putin "some favors". Who would have believed it just a few years ago that it would be the Republican Party that sold out America to the Russians? They have been screaming about liberals getting friendly with socialists for decades and decades. I'm beginning to think that was all a Big Lie.


John Milius owes America an apology for his premise of Red Dawn, where leftists weaken America's standing in the world and triggers dissolution of NATO with America standing alone.

Turned out he was 180 degrees wrong!
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#324323 - 04/13/20 01:52 AM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Russia's not so bad these days and will probably soon surpass the US in basic freedoms. Even they have single payer healthcare and I wouldn't be surprised to see them move towards free higher education soon. The oligarchs know that the best way to keep the people complacent is to throw them a bone now and again while you repeatedly gang rape them.

American politicians haven't yet learned that.

And the f*cking continues...


Higher education at public universities has always been free.
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#324326 - 04/13/20 02:45 AM Re: Questions [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16845
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Higher education at public universities has always been free.

In Russia...? Well there ya go. Looks like they're way ahead of us as far a basic freedoms and human rights. I think I'm beginning to understand American exceptionalism.

You can get free healthcare and education anywhere EXCEPT America.
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#324334 - 04/13/20 03:22 AM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 570
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Higher education at public universities has always been free.

In Russia...? Well there ya go. Looks like they're way ahead of us as far a basic freedoms and human rights. I think I'm beginning to understand American exceptionalism.

You can get free healthcare and education anywhere EXCEPT America.


Yes, we are the world's leader in "That can't be done."
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#324365 - 04/13/20 07:59 PM Re: Questions [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Don't forget how Cuba is producing doctors as well. There are a lot of Americans that go down there to get their education to be a doctor. Google "cuba doctors in us" for some info on this one. I had a friend who went there to be a doctor and had no problem passing the test here to get licensed.

there used to be a ferry from Mexico to Cuba but its gone. Now, however, you can fly to Cuba, from Mexico for not much money. I think you can buy a round trip ticked for under 200.00 You will need a cuban visa which you can get online. Cuba really doesn't care as they want the dollar.

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#324369 - 04/13/20 08:20 PM Re: Questions [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: North San Diego County
I wonder if you need to work in Cuban hospitals or clinics as part of the training. Probably: That's a big part of medical school in the US. It would make sense if they gave you an "Apprentice Doctor" license upon graduation, and then an actual Doctor license after a couple of years of working. Only then could you take the US exam.

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#324427 - 04/14/20 06:40 PM Re: Questions [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3239
Loc: Port Angeles, WA

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