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#324975 - 04/29/20 06:30 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
AND what you have too. The greedy always want EVERYTHING! (that's why they are called greedy! <g>)

the Republicans basically want government GONE! The only part of government they want is the military. They tend to LOVE the military; what it does, what it spends, what it has, the pretty uniforms (once read a book that said the armies with the prettiest uniforms always lost), etc. They believe that government interferes with the individual's right to do the right thing, or, do the wrong thing and stand as an example so nobody else does that. You know, stuff like the elderly forced to beg on the street for food (didn't put enough aside) or somebody who lost a leg in a war because they didn't move out of the way of the bullet.

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#324979 - 04/29/20 07:50 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
I'm aware that there are people who won't agree with me on this, but they also tend to be the people who insist that taxation is theft and that if we all adhered to the NAP, everything would be sunshine and roses.


Just to point out, if everyone ("we all") adhered to the NAP, everything would be far, far better. It's just that (gosh darn it) we're having to deal with, you know, humans, instead of angels, and so any construct that begins with "assume all humans are good or can be made to be good by government" is about as reasonable as any model that begins with "assume all humans can breathe underwater and shoot lasers from their eyes". smile

Quote:
Here's the funny bit: A plague should not be a black swan (or "outside context event"), but it IS, not because we couldn't foresee it, but because it became a political liability to foresee it, or even admit that it was possible.


frown True. It is in no politician's interest to expend political capital and resources to create a program that is more likely to benefit another politician down the road, who might be of a different party, when that same political capital and basket of resources could be used to benefit him or her in the here and now.


Edited by CPWILL (04/29/20 07:51 PM)
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#324980 - 04/29/20 07:52 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: cpwill
That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.


Looks like it is to me. Government isn't delivering food to the doors of the immuno-compromised: DoorDash and GrubHub are. Government isn't keeping people locked in their houses in work meetings - Zoom, Google, and Skype are. Government in my state took about two weeks to figure out how they were going to go about locking down. Businesses effected took about a day and a half to re-orient and re-structure.

Government's reactions have been (as is typical) characterized by Delay, Incompetence, and Working at Cross-Purposes, where it wasn't characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape.


You are watching Trump channel Eddie Lampert in real time, and you're pretending you don't think it's happening? Amazing.


I don't know offhand who Eddie Lampert is, but if you think that the Trump administration, the CCP, the WHO, and a bevy of State, Local, and other national governments' response to COVID 19 hasn't been characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape... this is gonna be a long conversation smile
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#324983 - 04/29/20 08:26 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

You are watching Trump channel Eddie Lampert in real time, and you're pretending you don't think it's happening? Amazing.


I don't know offhand who Eddie Lampert is, but if you think that the Trump administration, the CCP, the WHO, and a bevy of State, Local, and other national governments' response to COVID 19 hasn't been characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape... this is gonna be a long conversation smile


Then you better read up on him quick, because Trump is doing to his own federal government apparatus exactly what Eddie has been doing with his various internal departments at SEARS, where he is CEO.
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#325003 - 04/30/20 05:37 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Of course they think that taxation is theft. That is the Libertarians talking. - they believe everybody should pay their own way - want to use a road? pay whoever owns it, want the fireman to put out your house onfire? Pay him an insurance fee. Etc, etc, etc. The simple fact is that there are certain things that just don't work. i remember when one southern state decided to have insurance for fire fighters, it didn't work because they let houses that didn't buy the insurance burn but so did the neighbor's that did pay (they went back to having a fire department, socially paid for).

Yet another failed Republican solution.




Edited by jgw (05/01/20 07:18 PM)

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#325100 - 05/03/20 04:01 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

You are watching Trump channel Eddie Lampert in real time, and you're pretending you don't think it's happening? Amazing.


I don't know offhand who Eddie Lampert is, but if you think that the Trump administration, the CCP, the WHO, and a bevy of State, Local, and other national governments' response to COVID 19 hasn't been characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape... this is gonna be a long conversation smile


Then you better read up on him quick, because Trump is doing to his own federal government apparatus exactly what Eddie has been doing with his various internal departments at SEARS, where he is CEO


So are you arguing that Trump, like Eddie Lampert is a model of efficiency and tempered, well-reasoned response to risk and dramatic change?

Or are you concurring with me that, no, government has pretty much screwed a lot of this up?


Edited by CPWILL (05/03/20 04:01 PM)
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#325101 - 05/03/20 04:07 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: jgw
Of course they think that taxation is theft. That is the Libertarians talking. - they believe everybody should pay their own way - want to use a road? pay whoever owns it, want the fireman to put out your house onfire? Pay him an insurance fee. Etc, etc, etc. The simple fact is that there are certain things that just don't work.


I'd concur on that - you do get tragedies of the commons, and non-consumable public goods (Rule of Law, for example). Ultimately, the anarchist-leaning Libertarians fail for the same reason Socialists do - both assume that mankind is or under their preferred system will become Basically Good.

Quote:
i remember when one southern state decided to have insurance for fire fighters, it didn't work because they let houses that didn't buy the insurance burn but so did the neighbor's that did pay (they went back to having a fire department, socially paid for).


That's interesting - I'd not heard of that. Do you remember what state / when?
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#325103 - 05/03/20 05:40 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Ultimately, the anarchist-leaning Libertarians fail for the same reason Socialists do - both assume that mankind is or under their preferred system will become Basically Good.

This thread is about free markets solutions. Perhaps you could share your thoughts on some of the weaknesses of such in the topic context?
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#325106 - 05/03/20 06:23 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
This was pretty poor leadership:

Myor Gives In To Armed Bullies

Quote:
A city in Oklahoma that had required everyone to wear a face mask when going inside a business has decided to change that rule after store employees were threatened with violence by people who refused to cover their nose and mouth. “In the short time beginning on May 1, 2020, that face coverings have been required for entry into stores/restaurants, store employees have been threatened with physical violence and showered with verbal abuse,” Stillwater City Manager Norman McNickle said in a statement. One of those involved a threat using a firearm despite “clear medical evidence that face coverings helps contain the spread of COVID-19.”


Refusing to wear a mask in a store fits the legal definition of manslaughter. They need to arrest and prosecute anybody who threatens store employees with a gun, just like they would if somebody was robbing the store. That threat is assault with a deadly weapon, and finding the perpetrator should be especially easy BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WEAR A MASK!

All they need is a big sign out front that says YOU MUST WEAR A MASK IN THE STORE, and another sign right below it that says VIDEO CAMERAS: YOU WILL BE PROSECUTED. The other useful thing would be to hire some armed security guards. A lot of them are unemployed and could use the work.

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#325122 - 05/03/20 07:53 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I googled: "libertarian south fire department" and found:
https://www.villagevoice.com/2010/10/11/...rket-suffering/

AND a lot more on the subject!

The Libertarian party is not unlike other political parties. I was once a dues paying member of that party. I quit when a retired guy, from California, a member of the Libertarian party, was later to be shown to be a tax evader, actually took it over (along with Jesus and the Old Testament). The Libertarians, at least many of them, commit, exactly, the same sin as other political parties in that they simply go to freaking far! Again - they are not alone in this.

When congress works these kinds of excesses don't happen because a working congress means that ALL members of congress join to write legislation and the result is what all sides can agree to which tends to mitigate extremes. I think we can all recognize our congress doesn't work right now and that is a sad note of what happens when you have an ignorant electorate that support loons, racists, alternate realities, etc.

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