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#324617 - 04/21/20 12:58 PM Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse?
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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If there is, I’m not seeing it. Maybe somebody here with a better understanding of such things can map it out for me? Thanks.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324620 - 04/21/20 01:42 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Thomas Paine idea for Basic Income... thought provoking.

Two kinds of wealth - that which a person creates, and that which exists naturally
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324624 - 04/21/20 04:42 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
If there is, I’m not seeing it. Maybe somebody here with a better understanding of such things can map it out for me? Thanks.


Is this the theory that no one will buy a vaccine?

Tell me, how are folks working from home nowadays? Anyone gotten on Zoom lately? smile
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#324625 - 04/21/20 04:52 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Are the folks working from home making cars, building houses, producing food, distributing goods?

Nawp, they're they're phoning in orders to the folks who can't work from home.

How much you charging for that vaccine? Where can I get it? I've heard there is a powder which is readily available that cures it so no one else has to die. Louie Gomert told me that...

And what the feck is Zoom?
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#324627 - 04/21/20 07:10 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Anybody who can offer an easy and fairly reliable at-home antibody test for sale on Amazon, is going to make a fortune. We've done this for years for everything from pregnancy to THC. No reason we can't do it for SARS-COV2 antibodies. You would think Trump would be on Twitter every day demanding this, since it is the major obstacle to getting some people back to work.

Sure, not 100% safe. But FAR better than just sending everybody back to work without testing. And remember: PCR testing for the virus has a 30-40% false negative rate.

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#324632 - 04/21/20 08:03 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Last I heard there are over 40 antibody tests but only 1 has been authorized. I am not sure about the authorize thing. Seems to me that its taking waaay too long and I have often wondered if Trump has a tight hold on that agency and tends to hold those back who are not produced by them that 'contribute'. I googled "authorized covid-19 antibody test" and found a pile of stuff. Apparently there is only one covid-19 antibody test that has FDA approval. the University of Washington is going to be testing with a test from Abbot labs which is interesting because, as far as I can tell they swear by it but the FDA has not approved it. its interesting. The FDA has approved very little, when it comes to Covid-19.

I do know that when they really start to seriously test for covid-19 antibodies it will be a geniune game changer. So far there have been a couple of tests and they have both said that 60% of those tested seem to have the covid-19 antibody. The theory is that also means that they have had the virus and survived and, again in theory, can't get it again and also can't give it to somebody else. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, those two things have not actually been proven but, we are told, they are likely to be true. If that is the case then we have a game changer as all those, who have survived, can all go back to work. If you add in that it seems that there may be 60% of the population who have had covid-19 and survived, even if they were not aware of having had the virus!

I do know that there are a LOT of people working on this stuff, worldwide, and they are learning more and more stuff about the virus every day. Amazon, apparent, is setting up its own lab to develop their own serological tests for covid-19. (there are a LOT of places working on this one, the race is on, and its only a matter of time?)

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#324633 - 04/21/20 09:14 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pondering_it_all]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Anybody who can offer an easy and fairly reliable at-home antibody test for sale on Amazon, is going to make a fortune. We've done this for years for everything from pregnancy to THC. No reason we can't do it for SARS-COV2 antibodies. You would think Trump would be on Twitter every day demanding this, since it is the major obstacle to getting some people back to work.


I'm generally pretty skeptical of government trying to steer market conclusions, but, this strikes me as an EXCELLENT place for government to offer an award for the first, second, and third companies to independently come up with such a thing.
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#324634 - 04/21/20 09:15 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
Are the folks working from home making cars, building houses, producing food, distributing goods?

Nawp, they're they're phoning in orders to the folks who can't work from home.

How much you charging for that vaccine? Where can I get it? I've heard there is a powder which is readily available that cures it so no one else has to die. Louie Gomert told me that...

And what the feck is Zoom?


smile Zoom is the new Skype - internet meetings, conference calls, and the like. You end up looking kind of like the Brady Bunch intro - everyone's face in a different box on your screen.
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#324637 - 04/21/20 11:29 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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That little topic went off the rails in a hurry...
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324638 - 04/21/20 11:47 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Loc: North San Diego County
Zoom is the new multi-person meeting software for people working at home, but it seems people have no clue how to use it. Several group meeting have included background shots of spouses walking around naked, getting into the shower, meeting participants in various states of undress, etc.

Very embarrassing for the one who screwed up, but good for a laugh all around. Adds a bit of humor in these difficult times.

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#324639 - 04/21/20 11:49 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Apparently there are dozens of antibody tests in production, but I can't order one delivered to my house. That needs to be fixed right now.

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#324642 - 04/22/20 01:10 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Loc: One of the Mexicos
Trump sez he will rescue oil. Will that be via free market Capitalism, or by some evil Socialist trick?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324647 - 04/22/20 02:48 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Zoom

Sounds annoying, I'm hearing impaired and wouldn't have any idea what was going on.
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#324648 - 04/22/20 02:55 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
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I was thinking tonight as I enjoyed chicken cacciatore is that capitalism is no match for a pandemic, is it?

Hmm
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#324649 - 04/22/20 02:58 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greger
Are the folks working from home making cars, building houses, producing food, distributing goods?

I'm working from home. Attending a lot of training classes and taking a few refresher classes. Working on projects that have been put on the back burner. For me, this slow-down has allowed me to catch a breath and catch-up at work.

smile
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#324661 - 04/22/20 05:17 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Great idea! Lots of professionals need CE credits to maintain their license. My wife (the vet) would be doing that if she wasn't retired. Not as much fun as the giant Western States Conference in Los Vegas, but something they can do from home.

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#324662 - 04/22/20 05:40 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Rescuing oil is rather silly. If there isn't a market and no place to store any more, they just have to stop pumping for a while. They don't make any money in the meanwhile, but they already have most of the money on Earth. Funny that short-term future contracts have negative value. That means whoever holds the contract is going to have to accept their oil and pay for somebody to store it until it can be sold. Commodity traders are filling their pants because they have always sold their contracts before delivery, and have no infrastructure to actually receive the oil. I guess you could fill your backyard with oil barrels, but then you have to actually buy the barrels and pay for the freight from the port.

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#324664 - 04/22/20 06:22 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I heard, this morning, that there is one on Amazon for 150.00

Then I read your post again. There is a test for covid-9 (if you have it) for 150.00 not for the blood test thing.

I also heard that there were over 70 full blown tests for vaccines going on - right now.

There are also, apparently, 5 ongoing tests for medicines to deal with Covid-19 and, again apparently, they are all showing promise.

The UofW is also rolling out an antibody test by Abbot Laboratories 15 hours ago this was posted:
https://komonews.com/news/coronavirus/uw...vid-19-exposure

Apparently you can order a test, from the University of Washington, at (for 200.00):
https://depts.washington.edu/uwviro/

Things are moving right along!


Edited by jgw (04/22/20 06:36 PM)

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#324665 - 04/22/20 06:39 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Apparently, I have been told, Zoom is incredibly easy to hack.

Just saying...........

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#324666 - 04/22/20 06:42 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think I heard him say that he had restored our oil reserve by thousands of barrels. Not sure but thought I would post this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uoCzBsh...dex=24&t=0s

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#324671 - 04/22/20 11:08 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Apparently, I have been told, Zoom is incredibly easy to hack.


But honestly who wants to hack a bunch of middle managers in their boxers shootin' the breeze in a private video chat? Maybe some disgruntled workers furloughed without pay while their bosses pretend to work from home.
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#324678 - 04/23/20 04:25 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
That University of Washington lab only accepts specimens from a licensed physician. I suppose you could talk your doctor into sending it, if you paid for it.

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#324684 - 04/23/20 11:09 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
Ujest Shurly Offline
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Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 642
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
No, the first is the cause of the second. To bring back the second you have to tame the first. It is a domino thing.

Virus makes the jump to people and begins killing them.
To tame the virus, you have to contain the people.
You contain the people the economy stops.
To restart the economy, you need the contained people out buying and selling.
To have the people buying and selling, they have to be out making money
To make money, the people can not be contained
The people can not be released if the Virus is still out and about.
If the virus is still out and about and the people are released, the virus kills the people.
The virus kills the people, your economy collapses
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#324686 - 04/23/20 04:06 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Ujest Shurly]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Obvious truths, but not in Trump fantasy land.

Unfortunately, we are going to see massive surges in infection and deaths when reality bites all these Trumpsters in the ass. You can reopen the economy gradually, with a LOT of education about stopping the spread of the virus. You also need the ability to identify everybody with the virus, including the asymptomatic, and quarantine all their contacts. Public Health people have been doing this for a very long time. They know how to do it, but when Trump tweets the governors to open, and they do it with no such abilities, the result is totally predictable.

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#324687 - 04/23/20 04:51 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
In truth there are no free market solutions to anything.

The "free market" is a danger humankind and the planet which supports us.

A well regulated market is the solution.
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#324692 - 04/23/20 07:08 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
My friend, who told me that zoom was hacked also told me that a high school kid could do it. When I asked if that was who told him - he just grinned.

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#324693 - 04/23/20 07:14 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
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Loc: Port Angeles, WA
To iterate - I am REALLY in favor of a very small tax (even as little as a percentage of a penny per transaction). There are going to have to be tax increases after the election to pay for what has been going on for the last 3+ years plus the attempts at saving jobs, businesses, Trump enterprises, etc. A really good place to start is a transaction tax on every stock transaction. Given that the big guys have their computers automatically trading all day long (thousands and thousands of trades. The banks of computers alone are REALLY impressive!) this would general a LOT of needed income!

Google "computer generated stock trading" to see what I am talking about.

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#324699 - 04/24/20 01:33 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Wasn't this why you hated Bernie? He wanted to implement a transaction tax on Wall Street. Suchlike has been judged socialistic in nature and must not ever occur.

But thanks for your vote of confidence in leftist solutions!

Google how does Bernie plan to pay for all that free sh*t...
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#324718 - 04/24/20 07:16 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: jgw
Apparently, I have been told, Zoom is incredibly easy to hack.

Just saying...........


They had issues with people who made their meeting sign-on details public having people come in and disrupt the meetings (natch). They implemented a series of security protocols (the owner now has the ability to silence and kick out other members, waiting rooms to be allowed in, and ht elike.
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#324719 - 04/24/20 07:17 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
In truth there are no free market solutions to anything.

The "free market" is a danger humankind and the planet which supports us.

A well regulated market is the solution.


....I don't think those two things are as juxtaposed as you may presume.
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Winter Is Coming

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#324747 - 04/25/20 05:24 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think hate is waaay too much. I didn't/don't hate Bernie. I did not like Bernie because he was just a bit too far along the road of telling people what to do whether they agreed or not, ie. by force. He was/is a really good example of how good thoughts can move to oppression under the guise of doing a good thing.

I am for the good things but, I think, its better to get agreement before shoving something down the throats of others. This is, incidentally, what has happened in virtually all socialist or communist endeavors. Basically, they failed and, as far as I can tell, that's why.

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#324752 - 04/25/20 06:56 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
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>shoving it down the throats of others

Well, that's really for communists, not so much for the lite version which we can call socialist for convenience. Like the Scandanavian countries for example. They just pass laws and fix the tax structure that assume everybody will use government service X, and any Libertarian who doesn't is perfectly free not to use X, but he's an idiot because X from the government is already paid for by taxes he has to pay. He still has choice. It's just that everybody else is using X, so why not.

It's like people who refuse to collect Social Security despite paying in for decades. Even Ayn Rand took it!

Bernie never said he would MAKE people take free college. And just because there is a free state college and university system, doesn't mean the Ivy League is going out of business.

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#324766 - 04/25/20 10:40 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
he was just a bit too far along the road of telling people what to do whether they agreed or not, ie. by force


And I'd like to challenge you to show me where Bernie has ever threatened to force anyone to do anything? The general consensus among centrists is that government should never actually do anything. It ties in nicely with the the right leaner's belief that government should never be allowed to do anything.

The "far left" is a de facto party within a party. They/we are the party of action, we believe that if government doesn't get off it's rich fat ass and do something we are literally doomed.
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#324778 - 04/26/20 04:27 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
he was just a bit too far along the road of telling people what to do whether they agreed or not, ie. by force


And I'd like to challenge you to show me where Bernie has ever threatened to force anyone to do anything?


um... were all those higher taxes going to be voluntary? MFA?


Edited by CPWILL (04/26/20 04:27 AM)
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#324779 - 04/26/20 05:21 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


What tax is voluntarily paid? Hmm We just pay it and grumble.
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#324780 - 04/26/20 05:22 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
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CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

...from another thread:

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I offer a trade. All the True Blue MAGA Believers gargle bleach if all the True Blue Socialists agree to immigrate to North Korea, Venezuela, or Cuba, where they can live out their fantasy in paradise laugh

Conflating democratic socialism with dictatorial socialism is a fool's errand. Hmm

You have to admit that democratic socialism was the only tool to get us Americans through the pandemic, capitalism certainly failed us.

smile
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#324783 - 04/26/20 06:16 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
um... were all those higher taxes going to be voluntary? MFA?

I’m with ya, pal. Our Capitalist system is a royal pain in the arse.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324785 - 04/26/20 11:38 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Loc: One of the Mexicos
I think this might have legs, so I brought it over here...

Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: logtroll
What is it called when a person makes a bunch of money as a result of inheritance? Is that good ol’ earning it the hard way capitalism that anybody can do if they just put their mind to it?


Quote:
In his lectures on jurisprudence, Adam Smith himself said that “there is no point more difficult to account for than the right we conceive men to have to dispose of their goods after death” (Fleischacker, 2004: 198). This is an entirely fabricated social right, and one that runs counter to capitalist ideals. The free enterprise system is predicated upon rewarding and, consequently, incentivising production. Remuneration is allocated to those who provide the factors of production, and in proportion to that provision. Inheritance stands in stark contrast to this principle: it is not earned, but comes about entirely as the result of a parental lottery. From a purely economic perspective, the random allocation of resources cannot possibly lead to an efficient outcome. To allow such a state of affairs is to undermine the working of the ‘invisible hand’ by which market activities are guided.

Adam Smith on the tenets of Capitalism - Sean Tong
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324786 - 04/26/20 12:28 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
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Quote:
Meritocratic ideals

While the practice of inheritance runs counter to our economic system, it is also in conflict with one of our social goals: that of meritocracy. If we are to expect individuals to compete in the market economy, it is imperative that the rules governing this are fair and uniformly imposed. Inheritance undermines this by significantly reducing equality of opportunity.

To be clear: the concept of equality of opportunity is entirely distinct from equality of outcome. Income disparities arise naturally in a capitalist economy and are a reward for productivity. Unequal opportunity, on the other hand, runs counter to the meritocratic ideals that we claim to espouse. Inheritance clearly contributes to this, as those born to wealthy families in- herit more than those born to poor ones. Wealth is opportunity, and to receive more of the former is to have more of the latter.

Aside from the ethical implications of this, there are clear economic disadvantages to an unequal distribution of opportunity. As Stiglitz points out: “whenever we diminish equality of opportunity, it means that we are not using some of our most valuable assets—our people—in the most productive way possible” (Stiglitz, 2011). Buffett puts it more bluntly, comparing it to “choosing the 2020 Olympic team by picking the eldest sons of the gold- medal winners in the 2000 Olympics” (Sahadi, 2007).

A simple analogy, presented by Haslett (1986), makes this point easier to appreciate. We consider a hypothetical race between two competitors: in one case, the two start at the same point along the track, whereas in the second case one of the competitors is given a significant head start. It does not seem contentious to state that it is in the first of these races, which represents equal opportunities, that the effort exerted by the runners will be maximised. In the second case, poor motivation results from complacency and hopelessness, from the perspectives of the advantaged and the disadvantaged respectively.

Insofar as the capitalist system is predicated upon competition, the current state of affairs represents a rigged game. The rewards of production cannot be distributed accurately if outcomes are achieved through initial luck rather than present contribution. The practice of inheritance essentially exempts the children of the wealthy from the economic competition that others are subject to and that all have agreed upon. It is socially and economically corrosive, and for this reason its curtailment can be justified.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#324788 - 04/26/20 01:07 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
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So what's this Capitalism vs inheritance stuff got to do with the question about a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? Here are my thoughts:

It is my observation that "capitalism" and "free markets" are theories in chaos - nobody knows what they mean with any degree of precision or consistency. Our colleague CPWill gave a crystal clear example in his Lawn Mower Man Gives Large Inheritance To His Children vignette. The first part (though lacking in sufficient context to be really sure) depicts Lawn Mower Man as a the classic self-made entrepreneur - sounds like classic meritocracy at work. In the second part, LMM undermines free market Capitalism by giving his children an unfair boost in the merit race of life. I am inclined to explain this inconsistency as an indication that most people actually think that Capitalism means accumulating and controlling as much wealth as you can, and doesn't really have any coherent, consistent functional philosophy driving it.

If we truly had a governing system of Capitalism, we would strive to make sure that all people had an equal opportunity at the start - ensure that the rules of the game of a meretricious life were the same for everybody, and to provide a cushion for when things go wrong through no fault of the player. I think that this view of things gives a great deal of credibility to the "wacky" socialistic notions of a universal basic income, to government provided education, and to universal healthcare. That would be Capitalism with a heart and soul.

The present chaotic version of free market Capitalism where the goal is the achievement of "financial independence", independent of the rest of the world and insulated against the spectre of cooperation, is soulless and heartless. Such a "system" has no interest in solving the pandemic or in avoiding economic collapse, since the winners expect that they have risen above it all - "I got mine, it's your responsibility to get yours!"

In closing, I offer you exhibit A: Donald Trump.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324789 - 04/26/20 03:25 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


What tax is voluntarily paid? Hmm We just pay it and grumble.


It was simply the most obvious and immediate example of how Bernie, yes, is absolutely willing to force his policy changes on people.
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#324790 - 04/26/20 03:49 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Firstly, thanks for this well-thought-out piece.

I think, however, that you may be inaccurately describing capitalism.

Originally Posted By: logtroll
So what's this Capitalism vs inheritance stuff got to do with the question about a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? Here are my thoughts:

It is my observation that "capitalism" and "free markets" are theories in chaos - nobody knows what they mean with any degree of precision or consistency. Our colleague CPWill gave a crystal clear example in his Lawn Mower Man Gives Large Inheritance To His Children vignette. The first part (though lacking in sufficient context to be really sure) depicts Lawn Mower Man as a the classic self-made entrepreneur - sounds like classic meritocracy at work.


:shrug: it was the ability to live on less than you make and save and invest over long periods of time to build up real wealth and achieve financial independence - including on a low income. It's actually a fairly typical story for the modern American millionaire.

Quote:
In the second part, LMM undermines free market Capitalism by giving his children an unfair boost in the merit race of life.


.....No. Nothing is undermined by my friend receiving $5K a year for the next 5 years from his grandfather's estate, or, for that matter, if he was receiving $5 million (other than, perhaps, the increased risk to my friend in the latter scenario).

Quote:
I am inclined to explain this inconsistency as an indication that most people actually think that Capitalism means accumulating and controlling as much wealth as you can, and doesn't really have any coherent, consistent functional philosophy driving it.


I can't argue that this seems to be a popular underpinning fallacy among it's opponents, but, that is not the theory of Capitalism.

Quote:
If we truly had a governing system of Capitalism, we would strive to make sure that all people had an equal opportunity at the start


That is also not the theory of Capitalism. Not only can you NOT make sure that all people have an equal opportunity at the start (people will always have different IQ's, different EQ's, some will be taller or more attractive than others, some will have two parents while others are raised by one, etc.), but there is nothing inherent in Capitalism that suggests we should want to try.

Quote:
- ensure that the rules of the game of a meretricious life were the same for everybody, and to provide a cushion for when things go wrong through no fault of the player.


This can (and probably should) be bolted on to Capitalism, but, it is not the same as "making sure everyone has equal opportunity at the start".

Quote:
I think that this view of things gives a great deal of credibility to the "wacky" socialistic notions of a universal basic income, to government provided education, and to universal healthcare. That would be Capitalism with a heart and soul.


....no. That would be the engine of Capitalism trying to pull a massively heavy load of UBI and Single Payer. And, for what it's worth, probably failing.

Quote:
The present chaotic version of free market Capitalism where the goal is the achievement of "financial independence", independent of the rest of the world and insulated against the spectre of cooperation, is soulless and heartless.


Not at all. In fact, Capitalism has produced more voluntary cooperation than any other system in human history, and more global cooperation across cultures, nations, religions, and races than any other system in human history. Free Trade aligns the individual interests of each of us against the task of serving the others.

Quote:
Such a "system" has no interest in solving the pandemic or in avoiding economic collapse, since the winners expect that they have risen above it all - "I got mine, it's your responsibility to get yours!"


This is also a false picture of Capitalism. If you had the ability to develop and sell a cure, that is precisely what you want to do. If you have the ability to get a cure into the marketplace so you can go back to production, that is precisely what you want to do. If you can re-secure our supply chains so that we can continue to maximize our ability to increase the standard of living of the American working and middle class by providing them with goods and services at lower costs, then that is precisely what you want to do.

The "I Got Mine!" approach is something I've heard many leftists hurl as a slur, and that I've heard zero people who actually have wealth ever evince.

Quote:
In closing, I offer you exhibit A: Donald Trump.


Trump isn't a Capitalist or a Free Trade proponent.


Edited by CPWILL (04/26/20 03:52 PM)
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#324791 - 04/26/20 03:50 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Guess you didn't read the linked paper.
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#324793 - 04/26/20 03:56 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Guess you didn't read the linked paper.


Not only did I not read it, I didn't see it linked. :p
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#324797 - 04/26/20 06:36 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its always been interesting to me when somebody says that the Scananavians are all socialist countries. This is just not true. Basically they have all said that they are not socialist countries. At least one is actually a monarchy! Here is a reference:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorf...t/#622c135974ad

I would add that Bernie lost, in part, because he continued to claim to be a Socialist. For me this means that there is more agreement for my side than the other. It doesn't mean I win, or lose, simply that there is a voting public that is not all that entranced with "Socialism" regardless of mitigating words like "Democratic". In this particular instance the American Voting Public got it right (something they tend to eschew, more and more, as time passes).

As far as I know there are NO socialist countries. There are, however, a lot of countries that have legislated services that are paid for with taxes that serve the common good. This should not be confused with socialism. Socialism, by dictionary is said to control ALL means of production by the state. Now, however, there are degrees of 'socialism' which is, basically, a quibble. There are socially beneficial services that can be supplied by the state. The United states have a number of these like; police, fire department, Social Security, etc. That does not make the United States a Socialist country. A Socialist country, as far as I can tell is one where the government controls EVERYTHING claiming that EVERYTHING needs to be run by the state for the citizens of that nation.

We have been through this innumerable times, over and over again. Minor term quibbles do not change the simple fact of what a Socialist State is. Communism is, basically, what happens to a Socialist State in the end.

I also know that many disagree and that's just fine with me. I am not convinced that this can ever be agreed on by everybody. That too is dandy for me - sometimes that happens. Life goes on.............


Edited by jgw (04/26/20 06:40 PM)

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#324816 - 04/26/20 09:25 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Guess you didn't read the linked paper.


Not only did I not read it, I didn't see it linked. :p


Look again...
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324821 - 04/27/20 12:00 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


What tax is voluntarily paid? Hmm We just pay it and grumble.


It was simply the most obvious and immediate example of how Bernie, yes, is absolutely willing to force his policy changes on people.

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I offer a trade. All the True Blue MAGA Believers gargle bleach if all the True Blue Socialists agree to immigrate to North Korea, Venezuela, or Cuba, where they can live out their fantasy in paradise laugh

Conflating democratic socialism with dictatorial socialism is a fool's errand. Hmm

You have to admit that democratic socialism was the only tool to get us Americans through the pandemic, capitalism certainly failed us.

smile

Still ***crickets*** coffee
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#324822 - 04/27/20 12:09 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


What tax is voluntarily paid? Hmm We just pay it and grumble.


It was simply the most obvious and immediate example of how Bernie, yes, is absolutely willing to force his policy changes on people.

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I offer a trade. All the True Blue MAGA Believers gargle bleach if all the True Blue Socialists agree to immigrate to North Korea, Venezuela, or Cuba, where they can live out their fantasy in paradise laugh

Conflating democratic socialism with dictatorial socialism is a fool's errand. Hmm

You have to admit that democratic socialism was the only tool to get us Americans through the pandemic, capitalism certainly failed us.

smile

Still ***crickets*** coffee


based on what? I have to admit no such thing as no such thing is self-evident. Quite the contrary - several government's and governmental organizations appear to have screwed this pandemic up spectacularly.
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#324824 - 04/27/20 12:15 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


What tax is voluntarily paid? Hmm We just pay it and grumble.


It was simply the most obvious and immediate example of how Bernie, yes, is absolutely willing to force his policy changes on people.

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I offer a trade. All the True Blue MAGA Believers gargle bleach if all the True Blue Socialists agree to immigrate to North Korea, Venezuela, or Cuba, where they can live out their fantasy in paradise laugh

Conflating democratic socialism with dictatorial socialism is a fool's errand. Hmm

You have to admit that democratic socialism was the only tool to get us Americans through the pandemic, capitalism certainly failed us.

smile

Still ***crickets*** coffee


based on what? I have to admit no such thing as no such thing is self-evident. Quite the contrary - several government's and governmental organizations appear to have screwed this pandemic up spectacularly.

Nice deflection.

Based on so many businesses closed and 26M Americans ou of work. How's that for a starter?

How is capitalism working out for you today? Are you working? Have you cashed your Trump check yet? coffee
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#324825 - 04/27/20 12:16 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Guess you didn't read the linked paper.


Not only did I not read it, I didn't see it linked. :p


Look again...


Okedoke. Went and read it - the guy likes to assume his conclusions, and it changes nothing I wrote. So.....
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#324826 - 04/27/20 12:23 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
You have to admit that democratic socialism was the only tool to get us Americans through the pandemic, capitalism certainly failed us.


based on what? I have to admit no such thing as no such thing is self-evident. Quite the contrary - several government's and governmental organizations appear to have screwed this pandemic up spectacularly. [/quote]
Nice deflection. [/quote]

It's hardly a deflection at all. Government institutions have thus far not generally performed well - which, after all, is hat government institutions generally do.

Quote:
How is capitalism working out for you today?


Pretty well. I got a coffee at starbucks and some grass seed, weed killer, and a square-front shovel at Home Depot to fill in some bald spots on my back lawn and break up some mud on the road by my house. The kid's Education Savings Accounts and our IRA's have mostly recovered from the stock market crash earlier this year, and I'm able to use this handy dandy laptop on which I have all kinds of neat software loaded to access the internet and go to privately-owned sites where people who are also on their laptops with all kinds of neat software on it accessing the internet through a provider come on to tell me how terrible the capitalism that provided me with all these things and freedom is. smile

Quote:
Are you working?


Well, it's Sunday, so, no, but I'm still employed, which yes, is nice smile

Quote:
Have you cashed your Trump check yet?


It direct-deposited, as my checking account was linked to my taxes. I sent some of it to help people in Italy, some of it to my church, spent some of it on aforementioned house-repair items, and have put the rest aside into my "Something Always Happens" account so that I can give to meet any needs that pop up in my neighborhood smile.


*** You later added ***

Quote:
Based on so many businesses closed and 26M Americans ou of work. How's that for a starter?


Indeed. The government shut down American businesses and, partly because they didn't fully address that issue when they did so, as a result, threw 26 million Americans out of work. It's a rough thing indeed. frown

So it looks like Government is:

A) bad at identifying, anticipating, and fighting the virus, but
B) good at creating mass unemployment.

Hooray.


Edited by CPWILL (04/27/20 12:27 AM)
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#324832 - 04/27/20 01:18 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Thanks for playing. I didn’t mean to make you defensive.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324833 - 04/27/20 01:40 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Thanks for playing. I didn’t mean to make you defensive.


Oh no worries - I'm not smile Apologies if it came off that way.
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#324836 - 04/27/20 03:24 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
So it looks like Government is:

A) bad at identifying, anticipating, and fighting the virus, but
B) good at creating mass unemployment.

Hooray.


Good to know you used YOUR government money for helping others.

Conservatives ALWAYS blame government, instead of each individual Administration. Obama put into place a world-wide pandemic response team. Trump as you know, took it apart in April 2018 and was ill-prepared to lead us through the pandemic. Trump, "the hardest working President in the history of America" might as well have sat around with his thumb up his ass watching TV all day - oh wait...he DOES do that.

Those 26M need money, if it were not for government helping them, how do you think they would have fared? I am going to suggest that there needs to be a second round of checks.

California government has smart Leadership. It's not by coincidence that said smart Leadership is run by a Democrat. i say this because for each of the past 40 years when there was a deficit in California, said recession occurred under a Republican Leadership. The whole premise of the Republican Party is to bankrupt government so they can say that social services cannot be afforded.

California came into the black with reserves under Democratic Leadership for the past 10 years. The whole premise of he Democrat Party is to support the working and he poor and to provide safety nets.

California used information in February 2020 from a company in Canada called BlueDot, a small Canadian company with an algorithm that scours the world for outbreaks of infectious disease. That is why California closed-down early and is in better shape than other states.

The Trump Administration is using government technology headed by Brad Pascale to run numbers for Trump's re-election - as you know, everything is about Trump and not us American citizens.

So yes, government DOES work, but not under Republican or Conservative Leadership. Americans get that, that is why there was a blue wave in 2018 and will be again in 2020.

smile


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#324838 - 04/27/20 03:51 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
So it looks like Government is:

A) bad at identifying, anticipating, and fighting the virus, but
B) good at creating mass unemployment.

Hooray.


Good to know you used YOUR government money for helping others.


I mean, not all of it smile But we have a rule - any money that comes into the house, a portion of it gets given away.

Quote:
Conservatives ALWAYS blame government, instead of each individual Administration.


President's aren't God-Kings. They don't control the crops, they don't use their powers to make the floods come or stop, and there isn't a dial on their desk that causes GDP to rise or fall. Trump didn't cause the CCP to act as it did, Italy to act as it did, the WHO to act as it did, or New York to act as it did. Is he a fool and a buffoon who badly screwed this up? Yup. That, however (and, this is often hard for people who truly loathe him to grasp) doesn't mean that other entities and governments weren't also fools and buffoons.


This kind of response - jumbled, inchoate, disorganized, working at cross-purposes, poorly informed and slow to respond - this is how government generally works :shrug:


Quote:
Obama put into place a world-wide pandemic response.


smile Hey - you misspelled "Bush" there wink

Quote:
Those 26M need money, if it were not for government helping them, how do you think they would have fared?


Given especially that it was government that shut the economy down, I heartily agree, the government should shield them against the effects of its own decisions. Personally I don't think the $1200-to-every-adult was the wisest way to do that (I would have made payroll deductible by 125 or 150%, and backed that with the payroll loan/grant program instead, for businesses that ran out of cash, in order to incentivize and enable employers to keep them employed and paid while locked down), but it's not exactly outside the boundaries of good governance, here.

Quote:
I am going to suggest that there needs to be a second round of checks.


I think we'd be wiser to shoring up employment, pay, and the unemployed, vice giving free money to everyone, but, Congress may very well do such a thing.

Quote:
California government has smart Leadership.


..... This would be the super-smart government whose train project ran more than $100 Billion over budget, who banned straws based on made-up numbers from a 9 year old, who has ran up more than a Trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities, and who is driving out its own middle class?

Quote:
It's not by coincidence that said smart Leadership is run by a Democrat. i say this because for each of the past 40 years when there was a deficit in California, that occurred under a Republican Leadership. California came into the black with reserves under Democratic Leadership for the past 10 years.


Yup. They are narrowing their tax base to a few highly successful companies. I wonder what's going to happen when those companies start to seek out the lower-costs that can be achieved through teleworkers in Nashville and outposts in Raleigh smile


Quote:
California used information from a company in Canada called BlueDot, a small Canadian company with an algorithm that scours the world for outbreaks of infectious disease. That is why California closed-down early and is in better shape than other states.


A private company provided effective early indications and warnings of a strategic threat? You don't say smile

Well. Hooray for Capitalism smile


Edited by CPWILL (04/27/20 03:00 PM)
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#324839 - 04/27/20 03:58 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
smile Hey - you misspelled "Bush" there wink

So a Democratic took a Republican idea, and made it even better, good to know! smile

Quote:
In 2016 the Obama administration told then President-elect Trump and his advisers of the high likelihood that a pandemic would strike the nation and advised the incoming administration to take appropriate steps to reduce its impact. Obama officials also left their Trump counterparts a step-by-step guide on how to respond to a pandemic. Trump and his inner circle ignored that guidance.

- Raw Story

Quote:
It’s impossible to assess the impact of the 2018 decision to disband the unit, she said. Cameron noted that biological experts remain at the White House, but she says it’s clear that eliminating the office contributed to what she called a “sluggish domestic response.” She said that shortly before Trump took office, the unit was watching a rising number of cases in China of a deadly strain of the flu and a yellow fever outbreak in Angola.

“It’s unclear whether the decision to disband the directorate, which was made in May 2018, after John Bolton became national security adviser, was a tactical move to downgrade the issue or whether it was part of the White House’s interest in simplifying and shrinking the National Security Council staff,” Cameron says.

The NSC during the Obama administration grew to about 250 professionals, according to Trump’s current national security adviser, Robert O’Brien. The staff has been cut to about 110 or 115 staffers, he said.

AP News
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#324840 - 04/27/20 04:03 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Quote:
California government has smart Leadership.


..... This would be the super-smart government whose train project ran more than $100 Billion over budget, who banned straws based on made-up numbers from a 9 year old, who has ran up more than a Trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities, and who is driving out its own middle class?


The California High-Speed Rail Authority was established in 1996 after decades of advocacy for building a high speed rail system in California. The passage of Proposition 1A in 2008, followed by the awarding of federal stimulus funds in 2010, established the initial funding for the California High-Speed Rail system.

Pete Wilson (R) served as the 36th Governor of California from 1991 to 1999
Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger (R) served as the 38th Governor of California from 2003 to 2011.

Yes, Republicans fcked up the high-speed rail. smile Quelle surprise. coffee Thanks for bringing that up! smile

Citation for the straw hyperbole and driving-out the middle class, please. smile
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#324841 - 04/27/20 04:08 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Well. Hooray for Capitalism smile

26M workers whose jobs are shut-down disagree. Good to know that essential services like Home Depot remained open so that you could buy lawn seed. Pretty sure you must live in one of the states not shut down to have a Starbucks. Didn't know spending $5 for coffee was essential. coffee
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#324847 - 04/27/20 10:38 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse?

The title of this topic is pretty specific, but very ignored in the associated debate/discussion/holding-forth. Is that because the answer is simply “no”?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324849 - 04/27/20 12:54 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
... I got a coffee at starbucks and some grass seed, weed killer, and a square-front shovel at Home Depot...

Hold the phones! I may have missed one sure-fire solution - how to properly bury the dead, free-market Capitalist style?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324851 - 04/27/20 03:04 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
smile Hey - you misspelled "Bush" there wink

So a Democratic took a Republican idea, and made it even better, good to know! smile


As near as I can tell, he "didn't make it worse". That's not quite the same as "made it better".
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#324852 - 04/27/20 03:24 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Quote:
California government has smart Leadership.


..... This would be the super-smart government whose train project ran more than $100 Billion over budget, who banned straws based on made-up numbers from a 9 year old, who has ran up more than a Trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities, and who is driving out its own middle class?


The California High-Speed Rail Authority was established in 1996 after decades of advocacy for building a high speed rail system in California. The passage of Proposition 1A in 2008, followed by the awarding of federal stimulus funds in 2010, established the initial funding for the California High-Speed Rail system.

Pete Wilson (R) served as the 36th Governor of California from 1991 to 1999
Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger (R) served as the 38th Governor of California from 2003 to 2011.

Yes, Republicans fcked up the high-speed rail.

... you may want to consider what those dates mean, man smile Schwarzenegger getting a federal grant =/= the kind of mismanagement and poor governance that caused the project to run up more than $100BN over budget and collapse. That occurred in years like 2013, 2015, and 2018.

What you basically laid out is that Republican governors were good at securing money for this project, and their Democrat successors were really good at blowing through it and then some, all the while never actually finishing the project. wink

Quote:
Citation for the straw hyperbole and driving-out the middle class, please. smile


Certainly smile

Anti-Straw Movement Based on one 9 Year Old's Suspect Statistic

CA middle class fleeing to lower-cost states

California losing child-bearing middle class.

"The great tragedy is this place was a middle-class paradise, and now you’ve got the flight of the middle class with all their aspirations, leaving the poor, the rich and a transient population,” says Joel Kotkin, presidential fellow in Urban Futures at Chapman University in Orange, California....

etc so on and so forth. Most seem to be leaving over policy-driven increases in prices on things like housing and energy.


Edited by CPWILL (04/27/20 03:34 PM)
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#324853 - 04/27/20 03:41 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Well. Hooray for Capitalism smile

26M workers whose jobs are shut-down disagree.


Those would be the 26 million who lost their jobs due to government actions?

[img]https://imgflip.com/i/3ycb4o[/img]

laugh

Quote:
Good to know that essential services like Home Depot remained open so that you could buy lawn seed.


Indeed. The line to get in was stretched around the back of the store - lots of folks seem to be dealing with being locked down by finally getting onto those projects they've been thinking about.

Quote:
Pretty sure you must live in one of the states not shut down to have a Starbucks.


I do - and the governor just extended it a bit more. But restaurants and the like have always been left open, just limited to non-dine-in-service. All the drive-thru's are still working.

Quote:
Didn't know spending $5 for coffee was essential. coffee


Dude, no kidding. Honestly I prefer Food Lion Brand Hazelnut to anything Starbucks makes, but :shrug: I was out, and it was nice just to get something while I was out. The wife really likes their cold brew's, so, an SBucks Run about two or three times a month is just something I accept.


Edited by CPWILL (04/27/20 03:46 PM)
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#324854 - 04/27/20 03:42 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Alright - can anyone help - is there a way to make images actually work? Or is the link the best the site here can do?
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#324855 - 04/27/20 03:43 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse?

The title of this topic is pretty specific, but very ignored in the associated debate/discussion/holding-forth. Is that because the answer is simply “no”?


No? I laid out several things the free market was doing for this pandemic and economic collapse, and people generally ignored them.
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#324862 - 04/27/20 05:25 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse?

The title of this topic is pretty specific, but very ignored in the associated debate/discussion/holding-forth. Is that because the answer is simply “no”?


No? I laid out several things the free market was doing for this pandemic and economic collapse, and people generally ignored them.

Does that tell you anything?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324866 - 04/27/20 05:48 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Alright - can anyone help - is there a way to make images actually work? Or is the link the best the site here can do?


A lot of images are protected from theft now and cannot be posted with their online URL. If you wish to post an image it's best to download it...right click on the image and select "save image as".

Then go to Imgur and click on "New Post" and upload the image.
After the image has uploaded, right click on it and select "copy image address".
You may then use the image tool in the CHB reply window toolbox to post the image.

Free photobucket accounts no longer support third party posting of images. Imgur is free. There may be other image hosting websites you prefer and if so please use them.

The owners and staff at CHBRR apologize for the inconvenience.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#324873 - 04/27/20 07:02 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
In locked down California, there's always a line at the local Starbucks drive-through.

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#324880 - 04/27/20 07:25 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pondering_it_all]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
In locked down California, there's always a line at the local Starbucks drive-through.


laugh Same as in Locked Down North Cackalacky. I rather strongly suspect that the lockdowns haven't really "harmed business" so much as they have moderately benefited some businesses at the expense of others.
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#324881 - 04/27/20 07:26 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Alright - can anyone help - is there a way to make images actually work? Or is the link the best the site here can do?


A lot of images are protected from theft now and cannot be posted with their online URL. If you wish to post an image it's best to download it...right click on the image and select "save image as".

Then go to Imgur and click on "New Post" and upload the image.
After the image has uploaded, right click on it and select "copy image address".
You may then use the image tool in the CHB reply window toolbox to post the image.

Free photobucket accounts no longer support third party posting of images. Imgur is free. There may be other image hosting websites you prefer and if so please use them.

The owners and staff at CHBRR apologize for the inconvenience.


Shukran, good sir smile
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#324883 - 04/27/20 07:27 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse?

The title of this topic is pretty specific, but very ignored in the associated debate/discussion/holding-forth. Is that because the answer is simply “no”?


No? I laid out several things the free market was doing for this pandemic and economic collapse, and people generally ignored them.

Does that tell you anything?


That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?
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Winter Is Coming

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#324888 - 04/27/20 08:42 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Neither one of them seems to be accomplishing much at the moment.

It's almost as if we should look at our current model and make some much needed changes.
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#324895 - 04/28/20 12:03 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Alright - can anyone help - is there a way to make images actually work? Or is the link the best the site here can do?


A lot of images are protected from theft now and cannot be posted with their online URL. If you wish to post an image it's best to download it...right click on the image and select "save image as".

Then go to Imgur and click on "New Post" and upload the image.
After the image has uploaded, right click on it and select "copy image address".
You may then use the image tool in the CHB reply window toolbox to post the image.

Free photobucket accounts no longer support third party posting of images. Imgur is free. There may be other image hosting websites you prefer and if so please use them.

The owners and staff at CHBRR apologize for the inconvenience.


Of course the other problem is just not having the server space to host them locally even if one COULD upload from your own box.
So in the end it's a server space/bandwidth use issue as much as a copyright issue.
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#324899 - 04/28/20 02:32 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
Neither one of them seems to be accomplishing much at the moment.

It's almost as if we should look at our current model and make some much needed changes.


OOH. Let's try the Starship Troopers thing laugh
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#324900 - 04/28/20 03:09 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?

Sure would be nice to examine some examples of that. Or is just a warm fantasy? Seems like human frailties like greed tends to get in the way, especially since the free market stuff doesn't have any restraints on selfishness or lack of ethics. If you disagree with that, I'd be willing to consider some real life examples.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324901 - 04/28/20 03:09 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
OOH. Let's try the Starship Troopers thing


I dunno, I was never much of a Star Trek fan.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#324910 - 04/28/20 06:10 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWIL
What you basically laid out is that Republican governors were good at securing money for this project, and their Democrat successors were really good at blowing through it and then some, all the while never actually finishing the project. wink

Clearly you don't know how government works. The budget analysis and budgeting was set-up by a Republican administration. It was executed by a Democrat administration.

Cheap and chintzy Republicans never consider cost over runs and never have backup plans. Their black and white, all or nothing thinking doesn't allow for any deviation to the plan - only 100% planned execution.

The only way your hyperbole would be valid is if there were change orders to the program materials or design during the Democratic administration. Please feel free to cite the change orders. smile
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#324911 - 04/28/20 06:16 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Alright - can anyone help - is there a way to make images actually work? Or is the link the best the site here can do?

I can tell you...but the information will cost you. Capitalism, you now the thing that you think our society is operating on at this moment in time.

smile


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#324912 - 04/28/20 06:18 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
smile Hey - you misspelled "Bush" there wink

So a Democratic took a Republican idea, and made it even better, good to know! smile


As near as I can tell, he "didn't make it worse". That's not quite the same as "made it better".

Your orange guy made it worse, the families and loved ones of 57,000 dead Americas in six weeks can tell you that. Trump's incompetence left thumbprints around their necks.

Hmm
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#324913 - 04/28/20 06:21 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
... North Cackalacky...

Figures. rolleyes Yeehaw. coffee
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#324919 - 04/28/20 02:53 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: logtroll
If there is, I’m not seeing it. Maybe somebody here with a better understanding of such things can map it out for me? Thanks.


No, at least not in the short term.

Pandemics, volcanoes, and hurricanes don't care about economics. These are real things that don't go away when you stop believing in them, whereas the economy is a construct that exists only in our heads and is subject to actions on our part.

I'm aware that there are people who won't agree with me on this, but they also tend to be the people who insist that taxation is theft and that if we all adhered to the NAP, everything would be sunshine and roses.

Here's the funny bit: A plague should not be a black swan (or "outside context event"), but it IS, not because we couldn't foresee it, but because it became a political liability to foresee it, or even admit that it was possible.
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#324920 - 04/28/20 02:55 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse?

The title of this topic is pretty specific, but very ignored in the associated debate/discussion/holding-forth. Is that because the answer is simply “no”?


No? I laid out several things the free market was doing for this pandemic and economic collapse, and people generally ignored them.

Does that tell you anything?


That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.
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#324923 - 04/28/20 04:16 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Hamish Howl]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7212
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Mr Trump is a Black Swan Event
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#324928 - 04/28/20 05:10 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: cpwill
That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.


Looks like it is to me. Government isn't delivering food to the doors of the immuno-compromised: DoorDash and GrubHub are. Government isn't keeping people locked in their houses in work meetings - Zoom, Google, and Skype are. Government in my state took about two weeks to figure out how they were going to go about locking down. Businesses effected took about a day and a half to re-orient and re-structure.

Government's reactions have been (as is typical) characterized by Delay, Incompetence, and Working at Cross-Purposes, where it wasn't characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape.


Edited by CPWILL (04/28/20 06:10 PM)
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#324930 - 04/28/20 06:17 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: cpwill
That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.


Looks like it is to me. Government isn't delivering food to the doors of the immuno-compromised: DoorDash and GrubHub are. Government isn't keeping people locked in their houses in work meetings - Zoom, Google, and Skype are. Government in my state took about two weeks to figure out how they were going to go about locking down. Businesses effected took about a day and a half to re-orient and re-structure.

Government's reactions have been (as is typical) characterized by Delay, Incompetence, and Working at Cross-Purposes, where it wasn't characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape.


You are watching Trump channel Eddie Lampert in real time, and you're pretending you don't think it's happening? Amazing.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
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#324933 - 04/28/20 07:23 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: cpwill
That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.


Looks like it is to me. Government isn't delivering food to the doors of the immuno-compromised: DoorDash and GrubHub are. Government isn't keeping people locked in their houses in work meetings - Zoom, Google, and Skype are. Government in my state took about two weeks to figure out how they were going to go about locking down. Businesses effected took about a day and a half to re-orient and re-structure.

Government's reactions have been (as is typical) characterized by Delay, Incompetence, and Working at Cross-Purposes, where it wasn't characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape.


Maybe in your state.

You are correct that the federal government has been useless.
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#324934 - 04/28/20 07:30 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is, as far as I can tell, NO solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? What is happening has NEVER happened before! There are often references to the Spanish Flue in this regard. There were no real solutions to that one either, but this one is actually worse! We have, basically, shut down our economy. If we had a socialist economy that too will have been shut down. it is, basically, a complete disaster and will undoubtedly last through 2020 and probably 2021. Things are never going to go back to what it was. Anybody who thinks that is going to happen is dealing with professional level wishful thinking. Just not gonna happen.

I have no idea what we are going to end up with. I do know that, before its all over, we are going to be using a LOT of social solutions to problems. The problems themselves will be in every facet of society as a whole and stuff is going to be tried which will fail, greed is going to try control and will fail, but, hopefully, we will come out the other side without either killing one another or being invaded by somebody whilst we try and deal with it all.

I doubt, very much, that much will actually be accomplished whilst Jackass Trump remains in office (denying any responsibility and demonstrating a complete lack of leadership). My fond hope that those that support Trump go down in defeat for their total lack of any kind of integrity, competence or support for the nation.

All that being said I have no idea how this is going to turn out and, as far as I can tell, neither does anybody else. I do, however, believe its going to eventually end. I also believe that, as far as Covid-19 is concerned, that we will get medicine to treat those in the grips of it, that we will eventually, actually get adequate tests as well as the defensive equipment needed by those who are trying, very hard, to deal with our healthcare. Eventually I even think we are going to get a vaccine for Covid-19. India, incidentally, is starting to produce something like 40 million shots of an untested vaccine, for Covid-19 developed by Oxford University (UNTESTED!). All that being said we have a complete and utter mess, right now. Claims, counter claims, politics, no politics, and a LOT of crazies! Before its all over there are going to be more mistakes, and the crazies are going to continue doing crazy things that make absolutely no sense at all.

Through it all we are just onlookers in it for the ride. We have no choices and there is noplace to run. Staying home is probably the best solution as it will give those of us doing that, a place to hide until those in healthcare find functional solutions to this one. My main problem is that the United States is lacking a leader, this is the first time I can remember when that has happened and all of us are going to pay the price for that. The mythic American Voting Public needs a serious education! (and it doesn't look like they are going to get one. Those who survive might take time out from crazy to, at least, give what has happened a little thought?)

Here is the solution of billionaires and scientists:
http://archive.is/ThYKA


Edited by jgw (04/28/20 08:57 PM)

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#324965 - 04/29/20 01:26 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Interesting article. I hope they are successful.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324967 - 04/29/20 03:21 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Hamish Howl]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
You are correct that the federal government has been useless.

That all depends on the Administration. Of course, government is useless as designed by Republican Administration. The entire premise of Republicanism is to make government useless and bankrupt it so that social services cannot be afforded - all so greedy Republicans can keep more tax money for their own money-grubbing little hands.

Hmm
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#324971 - 04/29/20 03:59 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
You are correct that the federal government has been useless.

That all depends on the Administration. Of course, government is useless as designed by Republican Administration. The entire premise of Republicanism is to make government useless and bankrupt it so that social services cannot be afforded - all so greedy Republicans can keep more tax money for their own money-grubbing little hands.

Hmm


I meant "at this time."

The last administration did very well during the ebola mess. So well that nobody remembers there was a threat in the first place.
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#324975 - 04/29/20 06:30 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
AND what you have too. The greedy always want EVERYTHING! (that's why they are called greedy! <g>)

the Republicans basically want government GONE! The only part of government they want is the military. They tend to LOVE the military; what it does, what it spends, what it has, the pretty uniforms (once read a book that said the armies with the prettiest uniforms always lost), etc. They believe that government interferes with the individual's right to do the right thing, or, do the wrong thing and stand as an example so nobody else does that. You know, stuff like the elderly forced to beg on the street for food (didn't put enough aside) or somebody who lost a leg in a war because they didn't move out of the way of the bullet.

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#324979 - 04/29/20 07:50 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
I'm aware that there are people who won't agree with me on this, but they also tend to be the people who insist that taxation is theft and that if we all adhered to the NAP, everything would be sunshine and roses.


Just to point out, if everyone ("we all") adhered to the NAP, everything would be far, far better. It's just that (gosh darn it) we're having to deal with, you know, humans, instead of angels, and so any construct that begins with "assume all humans are good or can be made to be good by government" is about as reasonable as any model that begins with "assume all humans can breathe underwater and shoot lasers from their eyes". smile

Quote:
Here's the funny bit: A plague should not be a black swan (or "outside context event"), but it IS, not because we couldn't foresee it, but because it became a political liability to foresee it, or even admit that it was possible.


frown True. It is in no politician's interest to expend political capital and resources to create a program that is more likely to benefit another politician down the road, who might be of a different party, when that same political capital and basket of resources could be used to benefit him or her in the here and now.


Edited by CPWILL (04/29/20 07:51 PM)
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#324980 - 04/29/20 07:52 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: cpwill
That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.


Looks like it is to me. Government isn't delivering food to the doors of the immuno-compromised: DoorDash and GrubHub are. Government isn't keeping people locked in their houses in work meetings - Zoom, Google, and Skype are. Government in my state took about two weeks to figure out how they were going to go about locking down. Businesses effected took about a day and a half to re-orient and re-structure.

Government's reactions have been (as is typical) characterized by Delay, Incompetence, and Working at Cross-Purposes, where it wasn't characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape.


You are watching Trump channel Eddie Lampert in real time, and you're pretending you don't think it's happening? Amazing.


I don't know offhand who Eddie Lampert is, but if you think that the Trump administration, the CCP, the WHO, and a bevy of State, Local, and other national governments' response to COVID 19 hasn't been characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape... this is gonna be a long conversation smile
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#324983 - 04/29/20 08:26 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

You are watching Trump channel Eddie Lampert in real time, and you're pretending you don't think it's happening? Amazing.


I don't know offhand who Eddie Lampert is, but if you think that the Trump administration, the CCP, the WHO, and a bevy of State, Local, and other national governments' response to COVID 19 hasn't been characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape... this is gonna be a long conversation smile


Then you better read up on him quick, because Trump is doing to his own federal government apparatus exactly what Eddie has been doing with his various internal departments at SEARS, where he is CEO.
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#325003 - 04/30/20 05:37 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Of course they think that taxation is theft. That is the Libertarians talking. - they believe everybody should pay their own way - want to use a road? pay whoever owns it, want the fireman to put out your house onfire? Pay him an insurance fee. Etc, etc, etc. The simple fact is that there are certain things that just don't work. i remember when one southern state decided to have insurance for fire fighters, it didn't work because they let houses that didn't buy the insurance burn but so did the neighbor's that did pay (they went back to having a fire department, socially paid for).

Yet another failed Republican solution.




Edited by jgw (05/01/20 07:18 PM)

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#325100 - 05/03/20 04:01 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

You are watching Trump channel Eddie Lampert in real time, and you're pretending you don't think it's happening? Amazing.


I don't know offhand who Eddie Lampert is, but if you think that the Trump administration, the CCP, the WHO, and a bevy of State, Local, and other national governments' response to COVID 19 hasn't been characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape... this is gonna be a long conversation smile


Then you better read up on him quick, because Trump is doing to his own federal government apparatus exactly what Eddie has been doing with his various internal departments at SEARS, where he is CEO


So are you arguing that Trump, like Eddie Lampert is a model of efficiency and tempered, well-reasoned response to risk and dramatic change?

Or are you concurring with me that, no, government has pretty much screwed a lot of this up?


Edited by CPWILL (05/03/20 04:01 PM)
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#325101 - 05/03/20 04:07 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
CPWILL Offline
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Originally Posted By: jgw
Of course they think that taxation is theft. That is the Libertarians talking. - they believe everybody should pay their own way - want to use a road? pay whoever owns it, want the fireman to put out your house onfire? Pay him an insurance fee. Etc, etc, etc. The simple fact is that there are certain things that just don't work.


I'd concur on that - you do get tragedies of the commons, and non-consumable public goods (Rule of Law, for example). Ultimately, the anarchist-leaning Libertarians fail for the same reason Socialists do - both assume that mankind is or under their preferred system will become Basically Good.

Quote:
i remember when one southern state decided to have insurance for fire fighters, it didn't work because they let houses that didn't buy the insurance burn but so did the neighbor's that did pay (they went back to having a fire department, socially paid for).


That's interesting - I'd not heard of that. Do you remember what state / when?
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#325103 - 05/03/20 05:40 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Ultimately, the anarchist-leaning Libertarians fail for the same reason Socialists do - both assume that mankind is or under their preferred system will become Basically Good.

This thread is about free markets solutions. Perhaps you could share your thoughts on some of the weaknesses of such in the topic context?
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#325106 - 05/03/20 06:23 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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This was pretty poor leadership:

Myor Gives In To Armed Bullies

Quote:
A city in Oklahoma that had required everyone to wear a face mask when going inside a business has decided to change that rule after store employees were threatened with violence by people who refused to cover their nose and mouth. “In the short time beginning on May 1, 2020, that face coverings have been required for entry into stores/restaurants, store employees have been threatened with physical violence and showered with verbal abuse,” Stillwater City Manager Norman McNickle said in a statement. One of those involved a threat using a firearm despite “clear medical evidence that face coverings helps contain the spread of COVID-19.”


Refusing to wear a mask in a store fits the legal definition of manslaughter. They need to arrest and prosecute anybody who threatens store employees with a gun, just like they would if somebody was robbing the store. That threat is assault with a deadly weapon, and finding the perpetrator should be especially easy BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WEAR A MASK!

All they need is a big sign out front that says YOU MUST WEAR A MASK IN THE STORE, and another sign right below it that says VIDEO CAMERAS: YOU WILL BE PROSECUTED. The other useful thing would be to hire some armed security guards. A lot of them are unemployed and could use the work.

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#325122 - 05/03/20 07:53 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I googled: "libertarian south fire department" and found:
https://www.villagevoice.com/2010/10/11/...rket-suffering/

AND a lot more on the subject!

The Libertarian party is not unlike other political parties. I was once a dues paying member of that party. I quit when a retired guy, from California, a member of the Libertarian party, was later to be shown to be a tax evader, actually took it over (along with Jesus and the Old Testament). The Libertarians, at least many of them, commit, exactly, the same sin as other political parties in that they simply go to freaking far! Again - they are not alone in this.

When congress works these kinds of excesses don't happen because a working congress means that ALL members of congress join to write legislation and the result is what all sides can agree to which tends to mitigate extremes. I think we can all recognize our congress doesn't work right now and that is a sad note of what happens when you have an ignorant electorate that support loons, racists, alternate realities, etc.

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#325148 - 05/04/20 01:16 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Word is, a lot of hospitals are on the verge of bankruptcy. What is the free market Capitalist solution?
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#325174 - 05/04/20 03:03 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
Word is, a lot of hospitals are on the verge of bankruptcy. What is the free market Capitalist solution?


How is that possible when (A) Jared Kushner is buying up as many as he can left and right, and (B) aren't they all eligible to get some of the $500 Bn packages being handed out left and right...oh wait, mostly "right" (sorry, forgot...businesses in blue states don't get diddly if Trump gets his way)

Oh wait, you were asking about FREE MARKET SOLUTIONS.
I guess Option A IS the free market solution.
Jared Kushner, who by picking the right vagina owner, is in line to scoop up the spoils of the crashed economy caused by his father in law, and is indeed vacuuming up all the distressed assets at fire sale prices.

Ergo, President Jared Kushner (the de facto president) IS the free market solution!
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#325176 - 05/04/20 04:45 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
Irked Offline
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Here’s are some simple market issues that have failed to be solved by the free market of “the greatest economy ever”.

The demand for these items is extremely high, yet the market has proven incapable of satisfying the demand:

1) Masks
2) Gloves
3) Bleach
4) Rubbing alcohol
5) Disinfecting wipes
6) Flour (Flour! For god’s sake!)

If the Free Market was efficient these items would be readily available.

Is any other evidence required to show the utter failure of the Free Market to deal with any sort of emergency? (Though examples are myriad from health care delivery to transportation and R&D)
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#325177 - 05/04/20 05:57 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Irked]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Irked
Here’s are some simple market issues that have failed to be solved by the free market of “the greatest economy ever”.

The demand for these items is extremely high, yet the market has proven incapable of satisfying the demand:

1) Masks
2) Gloves
3) Bleach
4) Rubbing alcohol
5) Disinfecting wipes
6) Flour (Flour! For god’s sake!)

If the Free Market was efficient these items would be readily available.

Is any other evidence required to show the utter failure of the Free Market to deal with any sort of emergency? (Though examples are myriad from health care delivery to transportation and R&D.

Great post Irked. smile

Capitalists are loathed to admit that Capitalism has failed America for the past six weeks. If it were not for the the $1,200 stimulus checks and Paycheck Protection Program's socialism, we Americans would be really hard-pressed these days. Hmm
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#325180 - 05/04/20 07:10 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Jarid is his father's son and, eventually, his greed will get a little visit in prison, not unlike his father.

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#325198 - 05/05/20 12:48 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Great to hear from you again, Irked! I was afraid we lost you.

The optimal economic model lately has been "just in time" which delivers the greatest profit as long as everything on the supply chain works perfectly. I knew we were in trouble when Trump started screwing with NAFTA.

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#325233 - 05/06/20 02:15 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
Irked Offline
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Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3490
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
Thank you, PIA!

Yes, just in time supply chains are a big part of the problem, but you’d think with such an opportunity for profit, the glorious Free Market would step in and work its miracle.
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#325415 - 05/09/20 02:21 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Irked]
Greger Offline


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Registered: 11/24/06
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Loc: Florida
My ex is raking in the money selling masks and sanitizer, She just sold 15000 hand sanitizers to the Palm Beach County supervisor of elections and 2500 to Lake County. We're all hunkered down with nothing to do and she's camping in her office pushing out orders. She has something like 28 orders from the local mental health infrastructure.

I've a friend down in Miami who has been bottling and selling her own hand sanitizer.

Entrepreneurs are finding solutions where big business moves to slowly to take advantage of a rapidly changing market. Government can generally react more quickly but if it's not about Donald Trump then government isn't interested.
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#325731 - 05/16/20 12:05 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Is a debt based economy actually free-market Capitalism?

I'm guessing no, since debt represents some hoped for future value, not capital.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#325732 - 05/16/20 12:21 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Debt works for Fatass Trump. The guy is extremely leveraged. Hmm
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#325733 - 05/16/20 12:23 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
I've a friend down in Miami who has been bottling and selling her own hand sanitizer.

If your friend can get disinfectant wipes in volume to the market TODAY - she'd be a gazillionaire.

Hand sanitizer is nice, but not a priority like disinfectant wipes. Hmm
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#325967 - 05/22/20 10:27 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
My pharmacist keeps wipes and sanitizer in stock somehow, just a few of each, I think he stocked up early and panic shoppers don't go to his place. When no one else had water he had piles of it for cheap. It's a tiny little store in the quarters and he's a tiny little African man named Ugubu. I love going there instead of the big chain places.
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#325973 - 05/23/20 12:38 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
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Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Greger
I've a friend down in Miami who has been bottling and selling her own hand sanitizer.

If your friend can get disinfectant wipes in volume to the market TODAY - she'd be a gazillionaire.

Hand sanitizer is nice, but not a priority like disinfectant wipes. Hmm


Yes, we have plenty of hand sanitizers but just a small amount of disinfectant wipes.
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#325974 - 05/23/20 03:17 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
My ex probably sells them, would you like them imprinted?


**Here's a link**

Kyle Promotions


Edited by Greger (05/23/20 03:19 AM)
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#325981 - 05/23/20 12:28 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Trump then traveled to a Ford plant in Michigan on Thursday and offered this explanation for the failure of the privately-owned dams: “Perhaps there was a mistake.”

What happened in Michigan this week was no mistake: Infrastructure was privatized for profit — and it’s crumbling



---Perhaps there was a mistake?
Hell yes, there was a mistake, and the mistake is, privatizing vast swaths of public infrastructure for profit.
People like to pretend that government "can't do anything right" but the one thing government does not do is cut safety regulations and procedures in order to squeeze a few dollars into stockholder pockets while ignoring risks to the public that grow at an exponential rate.

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#325982 - 05/23/20 01:57 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
People like to pretend that government "can't do anything right" but the one thing government does not do is cut safety regulations and procedures in order to squeeze a few dollars into stockholder pockets while ignoring risks to the public that grow at an exponential rate.

Externalization of indirect costs = bigger profits!

“Life without healthy profits is not worth living.” -Jesus, before converting to Christianity
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#325988 - 05/23/20 05:32 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I head the governor of Michigan say that she was prepared to go after the owners of those dams. Betcha she means it!

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#326007 - 05/24/20 12:50 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Their insurance companies are in a lot of trouble!
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#326044 - 05/25/20 01:05 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Their insurance companies are in a lot of trouble!


Nope.
Trump will just declare them all immune by EO, or so he thinks.
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#326076 - 05/25/20 08:59 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
If the State of Michigan holds the operators of the privately operated dams accountable it will be the insurance companies that will take a hit. Trump is not going to grant them immunity.

Trump also doesn't give a flying f*ck about the operators of the dams.
They aren't going to buy arms like Saudi Arabia or millions of tons of soy beans and corn. They don't have the kind of moxie to produce the kickbacks and bribes Trump is interested in. Just some small time Michigan businessmen.

It will go to court, insurance companies will shell out millions and we won't hear another word about it.
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