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#324919 - 04/28/20 02:53 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: logtroll
If there is, I’m not seeing it. Maybe somebody here with a better understanding of such things can map it out for me? Thanks.


No, at least not in the short term.

Pandemics, volcanoes, and hurricanes don't care about economics. These are real things that don't go away when you stop believing in them, whereas the economy is a construct that exists only in our heads and is subject to actions on our part.

I'm aware that there are people who won't agree with me on this, but they also tend to be the people who insist that taxation is theft and that if we all adhered to the NAP, everything would be sunshine and roses.

Here's the funny bit: A plague should not be a black swan (or "outside context event"), but it IS, not because we couldn't foresee it, but because it became a political liability to foresee it, or even admit that it was possible.
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#324920 - 04/28/20 02:55 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse?

The title of this topic is pretty specific, but very ignored in the associated debate/discussion/holding-forth. Is that because the answer is simply “no”?


No? I laid out several things the free market was doing for this pandemic and economic collapse, and people generally ignored them.

Does that tell you anything?


That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.
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#324923 - 04/28/20 04:16 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Hamish Howl]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7486
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Mr Trump is a Black Swan Event
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#324928 - 04/28/20 05:10 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 481
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: cpwill
That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.


Looks like it is to me. Government isn't delivering food to the doors of the immuno-compromised: DoorDash and GrubHub are. Government isn't keeping people locked in their houses in work meetings - Zoom, Google, and Skype are. Government in my state took about two weeks to figure out how they were going to go about locking down. Businesses effected took about a day and a half to re-orient and re-structure.

Government's reactions have been (as is typical) characterized by Delay, Incompetence, and Working at Cross-Purposes, where it wasn't characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape.


Edited by CPWILL (04/28/20 06:10 PM)
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#324930 - 04/28/20 06:17 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: cpwill
That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.


Looks like it is to me. Government isn't delivering food to the doors of the immuno-compromised: DoorDash and GrubHub are. Government isn't keeping people locked in their houses in work meetings - Zoom, Google, and Skype are. Government in my state took about two weeks to figure out how they were going to go about locking down. Businesses effected took about a day and a half to re-orient and re-structure.

Government's reactions have been (as is typical) characterized by Delay, Incompetence, and Working at Cross-Purposes, where it wasn't characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape.


You are watching Trump channel Eddie Lampert in real time, and you're pretending you don't think it's happening? Amazing.
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#324933 - 04/28/20 07:23 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: cpwill
That a free and self-organizing economy is more nimble and capable of swiftly shifting to meet new requirements, needs, and situations than government institutions?


Except that it's not.


Looks like it is to me. Government isn't delivering food to the doors of the immuno-compromised: DoorDash and GrubHub are. Government isn't keeping people locked in their houses in work meetings - Zoom, Google, and Skype are. Government in my state took about two weeks to figure out how they were going to go about locking down. Businesses effected took about a day and a half to re-orient and re-structure.

Government's reactions have been (as is typical) characterized by Delay, Incompetence, and Working at Cross-Purposes, where it wasn't characterized by Deception, Willful Ignorance, Sclerotic Infighting, and Bureaucratic Red Tape.


Maybe in your state.

You are correct that the federal government has been useless.
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#324934 - 04/28/20 07:30 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3948
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is, as far as I can tell, NO solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? What is happening has NEVER happened before! There are often references to the Spanish Flue in this regard. There were no real solutions to that one either, but this one is actually worse! We have, basically, shut down our economy. If we had a socialist economy that too will have been shut down. it is, basically, a complete disaster and will undoubtedly last through 2020 and probably 2021. Things are never going to go back to what it was. Anybody who thinks that is going to happen is dealing with professional level wishful thinking. Just not gonna happen.

I have no idea what we are going to end up with. I do know that, before its all over, we are going to be using a LOT of social solutions to problems. The problems themselves will be in every facet of society as a whole and stuff is going to be tried which will fail, greed is going to try control and will fail, but, hopefully, we will come out the other side without either killing one another or being invaded by somebody whilst we try and deal with it all.

I doubt, very much, that much will actually be accomplished whilst Jackass Trump remains in office (denying any responsibility and demonstrating a complete lack of leadership). My fond hope that those that support Trump go down in defeat for their total lack of any kind of integrity, competence or support for the nation.

All that being said I have no idea how this is going to turn out and, as far as I can tell, neither does anybody else. I do, however, believe its going to eventually end. I also believe that, as far as Covid-19 is concerned, that we will get medicine to treat those in the grips of it, that we will eventually, actually get adequate tests as well as the defensive equipment needed by those who are trying, very hard, to deal with our healthcare. Eventually I even think we are going to get a vaccine for Covid-19. India, incidentally, is starting to produce something like 40 million shots of an untested vaccine, for Covid-19 developed by Oxford University (UNTESTED!). All that being said we have a complete and utter mess, right now. Claims, counter claims, politics, no politics, and a LOT of crazies! Before its all over there are going to be more mistakes, and the crazies are going to continue doing crazy things that make absolutely no sense at all.

Through it all we are just onlookers in it for the ride. We have no choices and there is noplace to run. Staying home is probably the best solution as it will give those of us doing that, a place to hide until those in healthcare find functional solutions to this one. My main problem is that the United States is lacking a leader, this is the first time I can remember when that has happened and all of us are going to pay the price for that. The mythic American Voting Public needs a serious education! (and it doesn't look like they are going to get one. Those who survive might take time out from crazy to, at least, give what has happened a little thought?)

Here is the solution of billionaires and scientists:
http://archive.is/ThYKA


Edited by jgw (04/28/20 08:57 PM)

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#324965 - 04/29/20 01:26 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10779
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Interesting article. I hope they are successful.
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#324967 - 04/29/20 03:21 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: Hamish Howl]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43812
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
You are correct that the federal government has been useless.

That all depends on the Administration. Of course, government is useless as designed by Republican Administration. The entire premise of Republicanism is to make government useless and bankrupt it so that social services cannot be afforded - all so greedy Republicans can keep more tax money for their own money-grubbing little hands.

Hmm
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#324971 - 04/29/20 03:59 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
You are correct that the federal government has been useless.

That all depends on the Administration. Of course, government is useless as designed by Republican Administration. The entire premise of Republicanism is to make government useless and bankrupt it so that social services cannot be afforded - all so greedy Republicans can keep more tax money for their own money-grubbing little hands.

Hmm


I meant "at this time."

The last administration did very well during the ebola mess. So well that nobody remembers there was a threat in the first place.
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