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#325691 - 05/15/20 04:06 AM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Peak Prosperity "This Generation's Polio" 15 minutes into the video, they report on a multihospital retrospective study in which patients received HCN + Azithromycin with zinc or without zinc. A lot of the comparison factors did not show much difference. But these did:

..................Zinc.................No Zinc...........p
..................N=411................N=521

needed ICU........9.2%..................15.7%...........0.004
needed vent.......8.0%..................16.5%...........0.014
Expired/hospice..13.1%..................22.8%..........<0.0001
Exp/hos in ICU...73.6%..................74.4%...........0.934
Exp/hos sans ICU..6.9%..................13.2%...........0.004


This shows pretty conclusively that the combination of HCN + zinc makes a huge difference when you give it to patients not sick enough to need the ICU yet. It also shows that it has very little effect on patients that need the ICU.
===============================================================

At 25 minutes into the video, they also report on a paper on Ivermectin:

Administered once at 150 mcg/kg compared to patients with no Ivermectin. N=704 in each arm, matched for everything they could think of.

''''''''''''''''Ivermectin..........Control..........p
Dead with Vent.....7.3%...............21.3%
Overall Death......1.4%................8.5%.......<0.0001

They show the original paper URLs on the left, so you can go read the papers if that's your desire.

HCN+zinc and Ivermectine have totally different mechanisms, so it would probably be possible to use them together. Both are extremely cheap and widely available, especially in the Third World where one is a common anti-malarial and the other is an anti-parasite drug.


Edited by pondering_it_all (05/15/20 04:07 AM)

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#325695 - 05/15/20 05:08 AM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: pondering_it_all]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
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Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Peak Prosperity "This Generation's Polio" 15 minutes into the video, they report on a multihospital retrospective study in which patients received HCN + Azithromycin with zinc or without zinc. A lot of the comparison factors did not show much difference. But these did:

..................Zinc.................No Zinc...........p
..................N=411................N=521

needed ICU........9.2%..................15.7%...........0.004
needed vent.......8.0%..................16.5%...........0.014
Expired/hospice..13.1%..................22.8%..........<0.0001
Exp/hos in ICU...73.6%..................74.4%...........0.934
Exp/hos sans ICU..6.9%..................13.2%...........0.004


This shows pretty conclusively that the combination of HCN + zinc makes a huge difference when you give it to patients not sick enough to need the ICU yet. It also shows that it has very little effect on patients that need the ICU.
===============================================================

At 25 minutes into the video, they also report on a paper on Ivermectin:

Administered once at 150 mcg/kg compared to patients with no Ivermectin. N=704 in each arm, matched for everything they could think of.

''''''''''''''''Ivermectin..........Control..........p
Dead with Vent.....7.3%...............21.3%
Overall Death......1.4%................8.5%.......<0.0001

They show the original paper URLs on the left, so you can go read the papers if that's your desire.

HCN+zinc and Ivermectine have totally different mechanisms, so it would probably be possible to use them together. Both are extremely cheap and widely available, especially in the Third World where one is a common anti-malarial and the other is an anti-parasite drug.


Well, but then, you have this:

https://ard.bmj.com/content/early/2020/05/07/annrheumdis-2020-217690

For me, THAT's the nail in the coffin. If patients with lupus or RA who were already on HCQ are not faring any better when they catch COVID-19, so much for your theory that early use is beneficial.

Quote:
Notably, 21.1% (121/573) of all reported patients with rheumatic disease in the registry were treated with an antimalarial prior to onset of COVID-19, yet 49.6% (60/121) required hospitalisation. In patients with SLE, frequency of hospitalisation with COVID-19 did not differ between individuals using an antimalarial versus non-users (55% (16/29) vs 57% (29/51), p=ns; &#967;2 test). In patients with lupus, escalation to maximum level of care (non-invasive ventilation, invasive ventilation or extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO)) was required regardless of HCQ use


As I suspected, HCQ is NOT effective for COVID-19, regardless of the phase of the illness. It is not prophylactic and it does not help even in early phases.

Maybe what is helping in your data is the zinc.

What, in your data, guarantees that HCQ is making any difference whatsoever? It's a combination treatment...

The paper I just posted indicates pretty CLEARLY that this medication doesn't help (which is consistent with what we're saying pretty much everywhere).

I suspect that the Columbia study will confirm it.

Quote:
patients with lupus—even if they are using an antimalarial such as HCQ as baseline therapy—can develop SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe COVID-19 at similar frequency as lupus patients not on antimalarials.


And here is what I've been telling you forever, that in-vitro doesn't translate to in-vivo, automatically:

Quote:
a putative role for HCQ in the treatment of COVID-19 has been suggested by its antiviral effect in cell culture systems. Given the assumptions made when moving from a cell-based model to a complex in vivo system, in vitro potency cannot be expected to translate into in vivo efficacy,


And in vivo HCQ doesn't seem to inhibit viral replication, either:

Quote:
Notably, results from an open-label, randomised, controlled trial using doses as high as HCQ 1200mg for 3 days (followed by a maintenance dose of 800mg daily for 2–3 weeks) did not suggest efficacy of HCQ in suppressing viral replication.


My friend, I've been telling you... hydroxychloroquine just doesn't work for COVID-19, regardless of the phase of the illness. The overwhelming majority of data coming in more and more, indicates that it is a total fiasco.

This thing came from the most flawed "study" I've ever read in my professional life (which was never successfully replicated), by that idiot Professor Raoult in Marseille (who says that he doesn't believe in RCTs, LOL). Politicians jumped on it... but it doesn't work. Period, full stop.

Maybe ivermectin will help. Remdesivir certainly does modestly helps. HCQ? Nah.


Edited by GreatNewsTonight (05/15/20 05:29 AM)
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#325715 - 05/15/20 07:28 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
This shows pretty conclusively that the combination of HCN + zinc makes a huge difference when you give it to patients not sick enough to need the ICU yet. It also shows that it has very little effect on patients that need the ICU.


How do we know that HCQ lets zinc in through the cell membrane and that blocks virus replication? Because that has been proved with human cells in vitro, and sure enough it also works in vivo as shown in the study I quoted with p = 0.004

It's the combination of HCQ + zinc that is effective early with p = 0.004. To bad those poor lupus and RA sufferers weren't taking any zinc. BTW, I'm not taking HCQ because it's prescription and a bit dangerous. I'm taking quercetin and zinc (below the recommended zinc safe dose) because quercetin is a zinc ionophore like HCQ, but very safe.

(Sorry, used HCN as abbreviation for hydroxychloroquine at times)


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#325730 - 05/15/20 10:23 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: pondering_it_all]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
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Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
This shows pretty conclusively that the combination of HCN + zinc makes a huge difference when you give it to patients not sick enough to need the ICU yet. It also shows that it has very little effect on patients that need the ICU.


How do we know that HCQ lets zinc in through the cell membrane and that blocks virus replication? Because that has been proved with human cells in vitro, and sure enough it also works in vivo as shown in the study I quoted with p = 0.004

It's the combination of HCQ + zinc that is effective early with p = 0.004. To bad those poor lupus and RA sufferers weren't taking any zinc. BTW, I'm not taking HCQ because it's prescription and a bit dangerous. I'm taking quercetin and zinc (below the recommended zinc safe dose) because quercetin is a zinc ionophore like HCQ, but very safe.

(Sorry, used HCN as abbreviation for hydroxychloroquine at times)



I'm not sure about pretty conclusive, buddy.

Show me a study with:

One arm with HCQ alone.
One arm with HCQ + zinc.
One arm with zinc alone.
One arm with placebo.

THEN and only then, we'd have a pretty conclusive answer, if the arm with HCQ + Zinc performed better than all other three, to a statistically significant level.

----------

But we are doing the same. I'm taking quercetin 250mg twice a day and zinc 30mg once a day, and Vitamin D 5,000 units per day, vitamin C 500mg twice a day.

And I'll not be taking HCQ either. I'm totally and utterly unconvinced that HCQ has any effect whatsoever against the SARS-CoV-2, and it sure can prolong the QTc. I believe that the risks (significant) outweigh the benefits (none).

Look, these lupus and RA patients who were on HCQ and contracted COVID-19 at exactly the same rates of those who were not on it, and progressed to severe cases at exactly the same rates of those without it, do have zinc in their bodies. Most people have normal levels of zinc. So wouldn't you expect at least some advantage of HCQ in that situation? The fact that none has been found, now in multiple studies, doesn't bode well for its efficacy against COVID-19.

Just today, the Health Minister of Brazil, a doctor, quit because the idiotic president there, Bolsonaro a.k.a. the Tropical Trump, tried to force him to recommend HCQ, and he refused saying there is no scientific evidence of its efficacy.

I mean, if YOU are so convinced of HCQ's efficacy, shouldn't you be taking it as prophilactic?

I won't. I don't think it confers a prophilactic protection, and I don't think it helps mild, moderate, or severe cases. The overwhelming majority of the evidence so far points to it being useless. I'd even question the agenda of the very few studies that indicate some hint of usefulness when all the others unanimously show that it doesn't work.

You do know that this has now evolved into a politically-charged issue, right? Now, President Maduro of Venezuela is pushing it too.

It reminds me of issues such as research on racial differences. You find right wing-biased papers insisting with racial differences in the human species, while left wing papers will show that the human species doesn't really have races, biologically speaking, but just cosmetic differences (a position I believe in, based on histocompatibility data, in the fact that your black neighbor can be a better kidney donor for you than one of your white relatives.


Edited by GreatNewsTonight (05/15/20 10:30 PM)
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Please take COVID-19 seriously; don't panic but don't deny it; practice social distancing (stay 6ft from people); wash your hands a lot, don't touch your face, don't gather with too many people, so that you help us contain it.

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#325735 - 05/16/20 12:25 AM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

NOVA did a great show on Covid-19 this week. Worth an hour of your time. smile
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#325746 - 05/16/20 02:35 AM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
I would love to see that study done right. All of these retrospective studies are just data mining. As I said before, if nobody did the effective thing, then you can't find it by data mining. But in that study quoted in my first table, they DID do the effective thing. And when they mined the data, they DID find it.

That effective thing was to divide patients into not so sick versus very sick groups when first seen, then they gave one group within those HCQ + zinc, versus the other arm who did not receive zinc supplements. For people who were not so sick when first given treatment, those who got zinc with their HCQ were around half as likely to die as the people who got no zinc. p = 0.004 means something really happened. You can't ignore p = 0.004. It is not proof, but it's highly suggestive.

Is there any such suggestive data for quercetin? Just in vitro data that shows it is an effective zinc ionophore, as far as I know.

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#325759 - 05/16/20 12:03 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: pondering_it_all]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
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Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I would love to see that study done right. All of these retrospective studies are just data mining. As I said before, if nobody did the effective thing, then you can't find it by data mining. But in that study quoted in my first table, they DID do the effective thing. And when they mined the data, they DID find it.

That effective thing was to divide patients into not so sick versus very sick groups when first seen, then they gave one group within those HCQ + zinc, versus the other arm who did not receive zinc supplements. For people who were not so sick when first given treatment, those who got zinc with their HCQ were around half as likely to die as the people who got no zinc. p = 0.004 means something really happened. You can't ignore p = 0.004. It is not proof, but it's highly suggestive.

Is there any such suggestive data for quercetin? Just in vitro data that shows it is an effective zinc ionophore, as far as I know.


Yes, you can ignore it if you have no control and no paired randomization. It's possible that it is just a fluke or due to some other still unknown intervening factor.

Like I said, proof only comes from RCTs. Nothing short of that delivers proof.

Like I said, what you are saying could be explained if the active principle is the zinc rather than the HCQ.


Edited by GreatNewsTonight (05/16/20 12:05 PM)
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Please take COVID-19 seriously; don't panic but don't deny it; practice social distancing (stay 6ft from people); wash your hands a lot, don't touch your face, don't gather with too many people, so that you help us contain it.

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#325780 - 05/16/20 09:11 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
what you are saying could be explained if the active principle is the zinc rather than the HCQ.


Quite true. I don't think anybody has looked at that. That would be hilarious, if it was true. Zinc is even cheaper than HCQ, and probably far less dangerous. I'd love to see a four-way random double blind study: Placebo, zinc, HCQ + zinc, and quercetin + zinc. That would be incredible. And also start treatment upon first symptoms.

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#325845 - 05/18/20 04:45 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
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Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Best news ever! Moderna's vaccine resulted in effective antibody levels in all 45 human participants in their trial. They are planning phase III for July. We may have a winner, folks! The mRNA route is showing robust efficacy, with the higher dose stimulating a level of antibodies superior to even the people who have recovered from the live virus!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/moderna-vaccine-human-trial-produces-133828334.html


Edited by GreatNewsTonight (05/18/20 04:55 PM)
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Please take COVID-19 seriously; don't panic but don't deny it; practice social distancing (stay 6ft from people); wash your hands a lot, don't touch your face, don't gather with too many people, so that you help us contain it.

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#325857 - 05/18/20 07:48 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
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I think I am interested in the lysol, UV and bleach trials. I mean Mr Trump has to be right. After all he knows more than the doctors.
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