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#326157 - 05/28/20 07:03 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10355
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Working Class Joe vs The Billionaire


If only that was true: The workers would vote for Joe and the billionaires for Donald.

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#326163 - 05/28/20 05:47 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17282
Loc: Florida
You're not a Marxist and don't recognize the lumpenproles.

The Republican blue collar boys that think Trump has their best interest at heart, the evangelicals, the 40%....

Quote:
Lumpenproletariat is a term used primarily by Marxist theorists to describe the underclass devoid of class consciousness.


They're at the heart of every revolution.
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#326172 - 05/28/20 10:30 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10355
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
You're not a Marxist and don't recognize the lumpenproles.


Not really a Marxist (other than Groucho), but I certainly do recognize the lumpenproletariat. I'm just wondering what Trump has to do to get some pitchforks and tar in front of the White House. He's like a Pied Piper leading his followers into the KoolAid line these days. How many have to die before they figure out not wearing a mask isn't brave: It's stupid.

Apparently he's so demented he can't see he needs these folks to vote for him in November, which they can't do if they are dead.
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#326185 - 05/29/20 03:47 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 451
Originally Posted By: jgw
Years ago there was a debate over the United States should have a maximum wage. If you google "maximum Wage" you will find a lot of stuff. Here is a wikipedia on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_wage

You might also google:
would a maximum wage work in the united states?

A maximum wage is, basically, how much one can earn every year. There are suggested maximum wages from around 1.2 million to 10 million dollars.

I would like to see a maximum wage for any number of reasons but, in this instance, I will just say I am for one and it makes sense to me. How about this. If you make over 10 million annually, after taxes, you will be forced to donate any excess earnings to charitable causes. If you choose not to donate said overage gov would step in and tax your income at 100% for all income, after taxes, of 10 million dollars.

Just thought I would throw this one out there.


It's a poor idea practically because you put the state into another race it cannot win - trying to stay ahead of the different ways in which people receive compensation. It's also a poor idea ideologically, because why in the hell should the state be putting caps on our ability to serve each other?
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#326186 - 05/29/20 03:49 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 451
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Lumpenproletariat is a term used primarily by Marxist theorists to describe the underclass devoid of class consciousness.


They're at the heart of every revolution.


Having dealt with a couple of revolutions and studied them somewhat professionally, I would have to non-concur. If you are looking for a group that is more reliably (though not Always) at the heart of Revolutions, that would be rising middle class segments who face unmet expectations.


Edited by CPWILL (05/29/20 03:49 PM)
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#326189 - 05/29/20 04:48 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
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I believe that is the standard belief. The poor are too poor to care about anything other than survival and the rich like the status quo. It is for the most part the people who have been teased with a taste of what could be possible, but remain under the boot heel of oppression/tyranny, who appear to be more likely to risk everything to get the full measure of what has eluded them.
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#326231 - 05/31/20 01:18 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17282
Loc: Florida
Quote:
that would be rising middle class segments who face unmet expectations.
Nope, that's the petit-bourgeoisie. Similar but of a slightly higher social order. Middle class in the Marxian sense is the class below the ruling class but above the proletariat.
The lumpenproles are a part of the proletariat but side with the king rather than the revolution.
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#326232 - 05/31/20 01:42 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10346
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Originally Posted By: CPWILL
. It's also a poor idea ideologically, because why in the hell should the state be putting caps on our ability to serve each other?

Please clarify. Are you equating how much money a person makes with ability to serve each other?
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#326239 - 05/31/20 07:22 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 451
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
. It's also a poor idea ideologically, because why in the hell should the state be putting caps on our ability to serve each other?

Please clarify. Are you equating how much money a person makes with ability to serve each other?


Well I suppose it's possible to make money by stealing art, or by some other form of extractive criminal activity, but, yes, under our system of economic organization, the way we tend to make money (especially large sums of money) tends to be by serving each other.

Bezos, for example, is catching a lot of heat right now because Amazon has done so well during the Lockdowns. Which, is to say, people are upset with him because they wanted people to stay more in their homes, and he was able to provide a fantastic way to help people stay more in their homes. Bill Gates is pretty rich, because he gave me (and millions of others) the ability to do things like write on this website and put out the occasional word document or power point.

If you don't serve people's needs or wants, in this economy, then they won't give you any money. If you not only serve their needs and wants, but, serve the needs or wants of millions or tens of millions of people in a particularly helpful way, they will give you a lot of money.


Now I'm not going to say that's an absolute rule - you have corrupt political deals that throw public money into politically connected economic enterprises (and, the more that government is able to steer economic outcomes, the more corruption you will see of that nature), and you have criminal organizations. But, generally? Yeah.


Edited by CPWILL (05/31/20 07:23 PM)
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#326240 - 05/31/20 07:26 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 451
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
that would be rising middle class segments who face unmet expectations.
Nope, that's the petit-bourgeoisie. Similar but of a slightly higher social order. Middle class in the Marxian sense is the class below the ruling class but above the proletariat.
The lumpenproles are a part of the proletariat but side with the king rather than the revolution.


:looks around:

We don't gotta king. smile


Regardless of humor, the point stands. Rising middle class who see large scale unmet expectations for which they blame the state tend to be the heart of revolutionary movements, not less-educated steady-state poor or working-class.
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