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#326482 - 06/10/20 06:40 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17403
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Thems' as is wise over long periods of time tends to gets. Thems as is foolish tends to lose.


That model does not fit the empirical data.


Quite the contrary. A brief overview of American Millionaires (folks who, I think, we can safely say, "has gots") demonstrates precisely that trend.
I believe that both are true. Them that has, gets more. (Somewhere between 35% and half of multi-millionaires started with an advantage. The problem is that most "studies" of the subject are seriously flawed.) Them that's wise, acquire. To lose, however, one had to have to begin with.

There is a vast gulf, though, between "millionaires" and the super rich. That is poorly understood and shrouded in myths.

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#326484 - 06/10/20 07:28 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10279
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Hey now... My favorite saying on the topic is this: next time you're in trouble, ask a comedian for advice.

There have been times I would have been money ahead to have done just that - at least I’d have gotten a laugh out of it!
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326485 - 06/10/20 07:46 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10279
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you think that the lawyer isn't giving you good advice, fire them and get another. Lawyers that are terrible at serving their client's won't do as well as those who are great at it (shrug), and the former can charge more than the latter as a result of the difference in how well they serve their clients.

This is a good example of what I meant by limited life experience. I'm guessing you haven't ever had to hire a lawyer.

My point, which you have dodged fairly completely, is that lawyers can charge an exorbitant amount of money, whether they are good or not.


No, they cannot - because other lawyers exist and are in competition with them.

Now, if you want to argue that information is imperfect, then I agree.

But that that is a categorically different question from whether or not they are not serving you, and (again) if you do not want their services, you don't have to purchase them.

So.... yeah. I don't know what you think you are demonstrating other than I-Don't-Like-Lawyers-And-Think-It's-All-A-Racket, but, if you didn't want them to serve you, then you wouldn't hire them.


Quote:
You naively think that the "free market" will separate the good from the bad, but it doesn't. I have engaged too many lawyers in my life, and I have yet to find a single one that does a good, competent, and earnest job. Part of this I blame the legal system for, as I have also never experienced a good judge.


......ever consider that if you've met a lot of lawyers and a lot of judges and you think all of them are bad, maybe it's you?

Yes, I have considered that. In the course of consideration I’ve come to see some very human flaws manifesting in how our system of justice is implemented. It’s a rather interesting and deep subject.

There’s a rule in life that I have learned over time - it came from grant writing for innovative approaches to solving problems, but has other applications as well.

If you find that you need to do much in the way of educating the reviewers so they will understand the issues involved, you ain’t gonna get the funding.

See, the reviewers are always experts in the field, else they wouldn’t have been asked to do the reviewing. A very common characteristic of folks who are experts, but who are not innovators, is that they already know everything and are not likely to be open-minded enough to learn anything new, and will morph new concepts into shapes that fit their pre-made world view (ideologies are like that). I believe a couple of famous phrases were coined for this phenomenon; “Never put new wine in old wineskins”, and, “Don’t throw pearls before swine”. A more modern term for it is “confirmation bias”.

In cogitating another response in our “debate“ (nearly as inappropriate a word as “defund” is for a different current popular topic) I’m getting the spidey sense that to get my point across, the expert reviewer requires too much educating, and he just ain’t interested in learning right now.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326490 - 06/10/20 06:35 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you think that the lawyer isn't giving you good advice, fire them and get another. Lawyers that are terrible at serving their client's won't do as well as those who are great at it (shrug), and the former can charge more than the latter as a result of the difference in how well they serve their clients.

This is a good example of what I meant by limited life experience. I'm guessing you haven't ever had to hire a lawyer.

My point, which you have dodged fairly completely, is that lawyers can charge an exorbitant amount of money, whether they are good or not.


No, they cannot - because other lawyers exist and are in competition with them.

Now, if you want to argue that information is imperfect, then I agree.

But that that is a categorically different question from whether or not they are not serving you, and (again) if you do not want their services, you don't have to purchase them.

So.... yeah. I don't know what you think you are demonstrating other than I-Don't-Like-Lawyers-And-Think-It's-All-A-Racket, but, if you didn't want them to serve you, then you wouldn't hire them.


Quote:
You naively think that the "free market" will separate the good from the bad, but it doesn't. I have engaged too many lawyers in my life, and I have yet to find a single one that does a good, competent, and earnest job. Part of this I blame the legal system for, as I have also never experienced a good judge.


......ever consider that if you've met a lot of lawyers and a lot of judges and you think all of them are bad, maybe it's you?

Yes, I have considered that. In the course of consideration I’ve come to see some very human flaws manifesting in how our system of justice is implemented. It’s a rather interesting and deep subject.

There’s a rule in life that I have learned over time - it came from grant writing for innovative approaches to solving problems, but has other applications as well.

If you find that you need to do much in the way of educating the reviewers so they will understand the issues involved, you ain’t gonna get the funding.

See, the reviewers are always experts in the field, else they wouldn’t have been asked to do the reviewing. A very common characteristic of folks who are experts, but who are not innovators, is that they already know everything and are not likely to be open-minded enough to learn anything new, and will morph new concepts into shapes that fit their pre-made world view (ideologies are like that). I believe a couple of famous phrases were coined for this phenomenon; “Never put new wine in old wineskins”, and, “Don’t throw pearls before swine”. A more modern term for it is “confirmation bias”.

In cogitating another response in our “debate“ (nearly as inappropriate a word as “defund” is for a different current popular topic) I’m getting the spidey sense that to get my point across, the expert reviewer requires too much educating, and he just ain’t interested in learning right now.


smile and how well do ad hominems usually do for you?

If you don't think a lawyer is providing you a service, don't hire one (shrug).
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

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#326501 - 06/10/20 08:57 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10279
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Sometimes metaphors work better than straight talk and facts, especially when there is too much context to share.

Obviously, sometimes they don't.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326506 - 06/11/20 02:13 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Sometimes metaphors work better than straight talk and facts, especially when there is too much context to share.

Obviously, sometimes they don't.


If you don't think that someone is providing you a good or service, don't pay them. Thankfully, with some few exceptions, that's how our system is organized - they only get paid if you, the consumer, think that what they provided is worth the cost.
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

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#326510 - 06/11/20 02:30 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10279
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you don't think that someone is providing you a good or service, don't pay them. Thankfully, with some few exceptions, that's how our system is organized - they only get paid if you, the consumer, think that what they provided is worth the cost.

It's so simple!
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

Top
#326515 - 06/11/20 03:02 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Thems' as is wise over long periods of time tends to gets. Thems as is foolish tends to lose.


That model does not fit the empirical data.


Quite the contrary. A brief overview of American Millionaires (folks who, I think, we can safely say, "has gots") demonstrates precisely that trend.


Okay. Citation?
_________________________
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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#326525 - 06/11/20 03:53 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Thems' as is wise over long periods of time tends to gets. Thems as is foolish tends to lose.

That model does not fit the empirical data.


Quite the contrary. A brief overview of American Millionaires (folks who, I think, we can safely say, "has gots") demonstrates precisely that trend.


Okay. Citation?


smile Happy to do so.

A 2017 survey from Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of millionaires are self-made, as opposed to inheriting their wealth. They worked most of their lives, lived below their means, saved their money and invested wisely.

That's a slight shift from a few decades ago. When Stanley came out with his study of American millionaires based on research from the late 80s and early to mid 90s, he found that about 80% of millionaires were first-generation rich.

In an update to his work, Ramsey Solutions conducted the largest study of American Millionaires to date (10,000 participants). They found:

  • 79% received no inheritance whatsoever, and an additional 5% received an inheritance that was less than $100K (and so was not responsible for their wealthy status). Only 3% of current millionaires were made so by inheritance.

    8 out of 10 millionaires come from middle at or below the middle class - 48% of millionaires were raised in middle class households, 27% in lower-middle class, and 4.25% in working class.

    Millionaires tend to hold regular-people jobs. You get your Fortune 500 CEOs, but, when you break down the populace of American millionaires by profession, what you find is that the top 3 jobs are Engineer, Accountant, and Teacher (which, I will admit, really threw me for a loop).

    Most don't make massive sums of money. Only 31% averaged $100K or more in income, and only 7% averaged over $200K a year. Most did reach six figure income at some point in their career, but fully a third never did... and are millionaires nonetheless.

    Instead of inheritance or massive income, the number-one contributing factor to net worth was saving and investing over a long period of time. 79% reached millionaire status primarily through employer-sponsor retirement plans, and the average millionaire hit that status at age 49, after living on less than they made and saving for decades. Only 5% reached millionaire status in a decade or less.


They were wise. Over a long period of time. smile


If you like, I do some basic financial counseling on the side. If you want to PM me, I'd be more than happy to go over some numbers with you, get you set up, on a plan, etc - no charge, and, if you don't have a plan at current, it'll be the most profitable time you spend in your life wink.


Edited by CPWILL (06/11/20 03:56 PM)
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

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#326545 - 06/11/20 09:42 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10279
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I note that the survey threshold is millionaires, which is not a very high bar today. Depending on where you live, that could be the value of a not very extravagant home. A person could get there with a normal sort of job and a practical head. They wouldn't necessarily have had to live below their means, or have invested wisely. I'm not arguing that this state of financial affairs wouldn't be comfortable and above the average, but it's not really in the "rich" class.

I also note that the study showed that 12% of millionaires didn't have to work for it. That could be quite a large number of people.

When I was a kid, I recall in the comic strip "Li'l Orphan Annie" a character whose great aspiration to wealth was the princely sum of $10,000.

In summary, I don't believe your citations make much of a point.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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