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#326807 - 06/21/20 01:04 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Deep end. You apparently think that Capitalism means using money to buy things


No, that's simply trade using money. That is a requirement of Capitalism and part and parcel of it, sure, but hardly the whole of hte system.

Quote:
and that constitutes a some kind of a governing system that produces endless good and bounty?


Certainly not. As an economic system of organization it is the least bad we've found thus far, and the only one that produces an ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty, which is generally well to the good.


Edited by CPWILL (06/21/20 01:05 AM)
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#326814 - 06/21/20 03:10 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10279
Loc: One of the Mexicos
There has never existed a system of Capitalism that wasn’t tempered by many other systems at the same time. Ergo, it is impossible to credit the ideology of Capitalism for anything. It is a chimera, a fantasy, a delusion. An ideology that tries to present itself as a golden solution.

Reality is much more interesting.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326846 - 06/21/20 07:04 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10128
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty


Most scientists qualified to know. say we hit the limits a while back, and now are destroying our only planet by the externalization of costs that are an ever-present side effect of overly unregulated capitalism.

Obvious cases are global warming and the presence of micro-plastic fragments everywhere. But it's been coming for a long time: Industrial water and air pollution, mine tailings, and strip mining come to mind.

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#326851 - 06/21/20 07:29 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty


Most scientists qualified to know. say we hit the limits a while back, and now are destroying our only planet by the externalization of costs that are an ever-present side effect of overly unregulated capitalism.

Obvious cases are global warming and the presence of micro-plastic fragments everywhere. But it's been coming for a long time: Industrial water and air pollution, mine tailings, and strip mining come to mind.


I have seen variations of this argument made many times. What I have not seen it do is make predictions that turn out to be correct, whether it's the Peak Oil cause or the periodic warnings that We Only Have 10 Years Before It Is Too Late (only to find out, ten years later, that now We Only Have Ten Years....)

Instead, late-stage capitalism has turned out to be the only system in which we are able to prioritize things like taking care of the environment and develop the technology that allows us to do so (compare, if you like, air pollution in major U.S. Cities in 1990 to air pollution there now, or, if you like, air pollution in current major U.S. cities to air pollution in major Chinese or Indian cities). Nations who seriously struggle with entrenched poverty don't care if they wreck portions of the environment - they are trying to deal with brutal poverty. Nations desperately trying to escape poverty care a lot less because their focus of effort, naturally, is on reducing the numbers of people still trapped in the mire. Nations who are wealthy, however? We have the space and the cash to care, and so we do.

Thanks to Capitalism and the innovation it spawns, we aren't "running out of resources" - our ability to leverage existing resources and discover and utilize new resources is growing.
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#326852 - 06/21/20 07:30 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423
Originally Posted By: logtroll
There has never existed a system of Capitalism that wasn’t tempered by many other systems at the same time. Ergo, it is impossible to credit the ideology of Capitalism for anything. It is a chimera, a fantasy, a delusion. An ideology that tries to present itself as a golden solution.

Reality is much more interesting.


People who make that argument often tend to have "Capitalism" confused with "No Laws".

But, no. Like the No True Socialism debate, Capitalism doesn't conveniently exist when we want to blame it for something and then cease to exist when we wish to avoid giving it credit.


Edited by CPWILL (06/21/20 07:31 PM)
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#326860 - 06/21/20 11:25 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10279
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty


Most scientists qualified to know. say we hit the limits a while back, and now are destroying our only planet by the externalization of costs that are an ever-present side effect of overly unregulated capitalism.

Obvious cases are global warming and the presence of micro-plastic fragments everywhere. But it's been coming for a long time: Industrial water and air pollution, mine tailings, and strip mining come to mind.


I have seen variations of this argument made many times. What I have not seen it do is make predictions that turn out to be correct, whether it's the Peak Oil cause or the periodic warnings that We Only Have 10 Years Before It Is Too Late (only to find out, ten years later, that now We Only Have Ten Years....)

Instead, late-stage capitalism has turned out to be the only system in which we are able to prioritize things like taking care of the environment and develop the technology that allows us to do so (compare, if you like, air pollution in major U.S. Cities in 1990 to air pollution there now, or, if you like, air pollution in current major U.S. cities to air pollution in major Chinese or Indian cities). Nations who seriously struggle with entrenched poverty don't care if they wreck portions of the environment - they are trying to deal with brutal poverty. Nations desperately trying to escape poverty care a lot less because their focus of effort, naturally, is on reducing the numbers of people still trapped in the mire. Nations who are wealthy, however? We have the space and the cash to care, and so we do.

Thanks to Capitalism and the innovation it spawns, we aren't "running out of resources" - our ability to leverage existing resources and discover and utilize new resources is growing.

Such a lot of magical thinking.

Please explain how Capitalism is what spawns innovation.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326921 - 06/26/20 01:46 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty


Most scientists qualified to know. say we hit the limits a while back, and now are destroying our only planet by the externalization of costs that are an ever-present side effect of overly unregulated capitalism.

Obvious cases are global warming and the presence of micro-plastic fragments everywhere. But it's been coming for a long time: Industrial water and air pollution, mine tailings, and strip mining come to mind.


I have seen variations of this argument made many times. What I have not seen it do is make predictions that turn out to be correct, whether it's the Peak Oil cause or the periodic warnings that We Only Have 10 Years Before It Is Too Late (only to find out, ten years later, that now We Only Have Ten Years....)

Instead, late-stage capitalism has turned out to be the only system in which we are able to prioritize things like taking care of the environment and develop the technology that allows us to do so (compare, if you like, air pollution in major U.S. Cities in 1990 to air pollution there now, or, if you like, air pollution in current major U.S. cities to air pollution in major Chinese or Indian cities). Nations who seriously struggle with entrenched poverty don't care if they wreck portions of the environment - they are trying to deal with brutal poverty. Nations desperately trying to escape poverty care a lot less because their focus of effort, naturally, is on reducing the numbers of people still trapped in the mire. Nations who are wealthy, however? We have the space and the cash to care, and so we do.

Thanks to Capitalism and the innovation it spawns, we aren't "running out of resources" - our ability to leverage existing resources and discover and utilize new resources is growing.

Such a lot of magical thinking.


None of that is magical thinking - it's a rough history of the past 50 years. It's what we've already seen.

Quote:
Please explain how Capitalism is what spawns innovation.


It provides both the incentives and the means. It wasn't foreknowledge of Covid or a desire to make it easier for all mankind to stay in their homes that caused Jeff Bezos to found Amazon, or Steve Jobs to come up with a handheld device through which I can download apps that will deliver restaurant food to my door - it was because they were in the business of making a profit. Capitalist societies are far and away the most innovative - that's not magic, that's simple fact.


Edited by CPWILL (06/26/20 01:49 AM)
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#326924 - 06/26/20 04:09 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43115
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...it was because they were in the business of making a profit...

Um...no. Amazon didn't turn a profit for nearly 20 years. Steve Job wanted to invent cool things. More rightwing revisionist history being pushed here at Reader Rant pimping two of conservatives favorite things in life: money and greed.

Hmm , rolleyes
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#326929 - 06/26/20 05:42 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10128
Loc: North San Diego County
I don't really think Capitalism is the enemy here: It's externalization. When somebody or some company can turn a profit by delivering goods or services we all want at a reasonable price, that's a good thing. When they can only do that by sticking somebody else with part of their costs by externalization, thats a bad thing. It's just like theft.

That's the problem with Walmart. They depend on the government to supplement their workers' salaries with "free" medical care and food stamps. Of course, those things are not really free. They just get taxpayers to pay them.

The oil and gas industry is rife with externalization, often their victims are everybody on Earth.

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#326930 - 06/26/20 06:02 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43115
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
..When somebody or some company can turn a profit by delivering goods or services we all want at a reasonable price, that's a good thing...

Sounds like Costco. Funny thing about Costco - it's the epitome of socialism. Everyone gets the same pay, everyone does the same work, everyone gets cross-trained to do two or more jobs.

Hourlies all make the same: Starting is $15.00/hr, top-out is $25.65/hr
Supervisors all make $27.15/hr
Managers start at $30.00
Administrative Managers start at $35.00

Everyone gets the same health plan.
Everyone gets 9 days a year of sick leave

Everyone gets a minimum of 2 weeks vacation.
One week is added for every 5 years of service topping off at 5 weeks a year.

Everyone with over 12,000 service hours gets a $2,500 bonus twice a year.


smile
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