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#326022 - 05/24/20 07:16 PM The Maximum Wage
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Years ago there was a debate over the United States should have a maximum wage. If you google "maximum Wage" you will find a lot of stuff. Here is a wikipedia on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_wage

You might also google:
would a maximum wage work in the united states?

A maximum wage is, basically, how much one can earn every year. There are suggested maximum wages from around 1.2 million to 10 million dollars.

I would like to see a maximum wage for any number of reasons but, in this instance, I will just say I am for one and it makes sense to me. How about this. If you make over 10 million annually, after taxes, you will be forced to donate any excess earnings to charitable causes. If you choose not to donate said overage gov would step in and tax your income at 100% for all income, after taxes, of 10 million dollars.

Just thought I would throw this one out there.


Edited by jgw (05/24/20 07:26 PM)

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#326031 - 05/24/20 09:39 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: jgw
Years ago there was a debate over the United States should have a maximum wage. If you google "maximum Wage" you will find a lot of stuff. Here is a wikipedia on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_wage

You might also google:
would a maximum wage work in the united states?

A maximum wage is, basically, how much one can earn every year. There are suggested maximum wages from around 1.2 million to 10 million dollars.

I would like to see a maximum wage for any number of reasons but, in this instance, I will just say I am for one and it makes sense to me. How about this. If you make over 10 million annually, after taxes, you will be forced to donate any excess earnings to charitable causes. If you choose not to donate said overage gov would step in and tax your income at 100% for all income, after taxes, of 10 million dollars.

Just thought I would throw this one out there.


No capitalist country has such provision (your link seems to indicate that only Cuba has such legislation, and if failed to pass in the capitalist country that tried to have it, Switzerland). What you'd accomplish is that all rich people in America would renounce American citizenship and move their domicile to a more tax-friendly country. Internal Revenue would drop, not increase.

Eight European Countries tried hyper-taxation of the rich (none as extreme as what you are proposing) and a few years later cancelled the legislation, when they realized that due to flight of capital, they were losing more money than they were collecting.
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#326033 - 05/24/20 11:48 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
No capitalist country has such provision (your link seems to indicate that only Cuba has such legislation, and if failed to pass in the capitalist country that tried to have it, Switzerland). What you'd accomplish is that all rich people in America would renounce American citizenship and move their domicile to a more tax-friendly country. Internal Revenue would drop, not increase.

Eight European Countries tried hyper-taxation of the rich (none as extreme as what you are proposing) and a few years later cancelled the legislation, when they realized that due to flight of capital, they were losing more money than they were collecting.

How about a maximum tax rate?

_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326095 - 05/26/20 02:05 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Actually, that wouldn't work because almost nobody takes a wage in excess of 10 million dollars. Why would they volunteer to pay that much income tax? They take things like stock options, company benefits, etc. Or they just have all the money go to the corporation they control.

A top tier rate of 70% would be great, though. Lots of economists have looked at it, and even the ones who thought the Laffer Curve was valid said 70% was optimal.

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#326116 - 05/26/20 08:42 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Agreed. I'm a big fan of tiny targeted taxes too. A tax on stock market transactions, a small fuel tax increase, wherever a tax can be digitally collected and made so small that no one really notices it.

There's a lot of expensive sh*t that we need right now. We can borrow more money to do it or we can put taxes in place. I'm one of those tax and spend Democrats.
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#326119 - 05/26/20 10:34 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
whoever takes over after the election is going to face SERIOUS debt problems. The last one was after WWII. The one coming, however, is going to be a LOT more than paying off WWII. The only real way to accomplish that is with taxation. If the very rich don't like it and move then EVERYTHING they own gets taken. There are going to be some very real problems that can only be fixed by taxing them with. I am not even sure, when it all shakes out, that anybody will buy our bonds until our numbers are better.

I watched the governor of New York this morning. He is suggesting a full on attack to fix the infrastructure, which really needs to be done. This is what most countries do when facing a debt disaster and it actually tends to bail them out in the end. I just don't see our politicians doing that, however.

In the fullness of time...............


Edited by jgw (05/26/20 10:37 PM)

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#326139 - 05/27/20 05:40 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Whoever takes over after the election is going to face SERIOUS debt problems.

If it's a Democrat then Republicans will fight tooth and nail to stop them from increasing the debt, blame them for every penny ever spent, prevent spending on any necessary programs, and refuse to raise the debt ceiling because deficit spending.

Been there done that.
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#326141 - 05/27/20 05:57 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Hopefully, if the Dems win they win it ALL! Then, the Lord willing, they will do the right things which will include rebuilding government, and re-instituting environmental rules with environmental legislation. Basically, this time, legislate it ALL instead of using proclamations. Proclamations can be rescinded by other proclamations - legislation take the entire congress.

There are something over 400 pieces of legislation, laying in the Senate too.

If the Dems win it all its gonna get REALLY interesting I think?

Oh, and doing something about the national infrastructure would also be a good thing to do as well.
https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/

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#326150 - 05/28/20 03:02 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Saw an interesting piece on YouTube the other day about states going bankrupt. The bottom line is the Constitution does not permit it. Even if they could, the bankruptcy courts would just tell them to raise taxes, cut spending, and pay all of their creditors. Politicians don't like to do those things, of course, but the court would overrule them.

But they also said almost all states have excellent credit ratings. Moody's has said the outlook is poor because of Covid-19 but they have not downgraded ANY state bonds because states use bonds to build things, not for normal operation.
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#326152 - 05/28/20 03:11 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
There are something over 400 pieces of legislation, laying in the Senate too.


Those get tossed at the end of the session. But the House knew they'd never get a vote, that wasn't the point. Each time they pass a bill it get's reported in the news. Impossible bills are good PR. That's just a game they play. Often the House Speaker can be shamed into giving a popular bill a hearing. McConnell has no shame.

Do you non-Marxists even realize that we have a perfect Bougie vs Prole election underway? The Workers vs the Bosses? It's so classic it's hilarious. Working Class Joe vs The Billionaire
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#326157 - 05/28/20 07:03 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Working Class Joe vs The Billionaire


If only that was true: The workers would vote for Joe and the billionaires for Donald.

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#326163 - 05/28/20 05:47 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
You're not a Marxist and don't recognize the lumpenproles.

The Republican blue collar boys that think Trump has their best interest at heart, the evangelicals, the 40%....

Quote:
Lumpenproletariat is a term used primarily by Marxist theorists to describe the underclass devoid of class consciousness.


They're at the heart of every revolution.
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#326172 - 05/28/20 10:30 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
You're not a Marxist and don't recognize the lumpenproles.


Not really a Marxist (other than Groucho), but I certainly do recognize the lumpenproletariat. I'm just wondering what Trump has to do to get some pitchforks and tar in front of the White House. He's like a Pied Piper leading his followers into the KoolAid line these days. How many have to die before they figure out not wearing a mask isn't brave: It's stupid.

Apparently he's so demented he can't see he needs these folks to vote for him in November, which they can't do if they are dead.
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#326185 - 05/29/20 03:47 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: jgw
Years ago there was a debate over the United States should have a maximum wage. If you google "maximum Wage" you will find a lot of stuff. Here is a wikipedia on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_wage

You might also google:
would a maximum wage work in the united states?

A maximum wage is, basically, how much one can earn every year. There are suggested maximum wages from around 1.2 million to 10 million dollars.

I would like to see a maximum wage for any number of reasons but, in this instance, I will just say I am for one and it makes sense to me. How about this. If you make over 10 million annually, after taxes, you will be forced to donate any excess earnings to charitable causes. If you choose not to donate said overage gov would step in and tax your income at 100% for all income, after taxes, of 10 million dollars.

Just thought I would throw this one out there.


It's a poor idea practically because you put the state into another race it cannot win - trying to stay ahead of the different ways in which people receive compensation. It's also a poor idea ideologically, because why in the hell should the state be putting caps on our ability to serve each other?
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#326186 - 05/29/20 03:49 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Lumpenproletariat is a term used primarily by Marxist theorists to describe the underclass devoid of class consciousness.


They're at the heart of every revolution.


Having dealt with a couple of revolutions and studied them somewhat professionally, I would have to non-concur. If you are looking for a group that is more reliably (though not Always) at the heart of Revolutions, that would be rising middle class segments who face unmet expectations.


Edited by CPWILL (05/29/20 03:49 PM)
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#326189 - 05/29/20 04:48 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7212
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I believe that is the standard belief. The poor are too poor to care about anything other than survival and the rich like the status quo. It is for the most part the people who have been teased with a taste of what could be possible, but remain under the boot heel of oppression/tyranny, who appear to be more likely to risk everything to get the full measure of what has eluded them.
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#326231 - 05/31/20 01:18 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
that would be rising middle class segments who face unmet expectations.
Nope, that's the petit-bourgeoisie. Similar but of a slightly higher social order. Middle class in the Marxian sense is the class below the ruling class but above the proletariat.
The lumpenproles are a part of the proletariat but side with the king rather than the revolution.
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#326232 - 05/31/20 01:42 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
. It's also a poor idea ideologically, because why in the hell should the state be putting caps on our ability to serve each other?

Please clarify. Are you equating how much money a person makes with ability to serve each other?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326239 - 05/31/20 07:22 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
. It's also a poor idea ideologically, because why in the hell should the state be putting caps on our ability to serve each other?

Please clarify. Are you equating how much money a person makes with ability to serve each other?


Well I suppose it's possible to make money by stealing art, or by some other form of extractive criminal activity, but, yes, under our system of economic organization, the way we tend to make money (especially large sums of money) tends to be by serving each other.

Bezos, for example, is catching a lot of heat right now because Amazon has done so well during the Lockdowns. Which, is to say, people are upset with him because they wanted people to stay more in their homes, and he was able to provide a fantastic way to help people stay more in their homes. Bill Gates is pretty rich, because he gave me (and millions of others) the ability to do things like write on this website and put out the occasional word document or power point.

If you don't serve people's needs or wants, in this economy, then they won't give you any money. If you not only serve their needs and wants, but, serve the needs or wants of millions or tens of millions of people in a particularly helpful way, they will give you a lot of money.


Now I'm not going to say that's an absolute rule - you have corrupt political deals that throw public money into politically connected economic enterprises (and, the more that government is able to steer economic outcomes, the more corruption you will see of that nature), and you have criminal organizations. But, generally? Yeah.


Edited by CPWILL (05/31/20 07:23 PM)
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#326240 - 05/31/20 07:26 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
that would be rising middle class segments who face unmet expectations.
Nope, that's the petit-bourgeoisie. Similar but of a slightly higher social order. Middle class in the Marxian sense is the class below the ruling class but above the proletariat.
The lumpenproles are a part of the proletariat but side with the king rather than the revolution.


:looks around:

We don't gotta king. smile


Regardless of humor, the point stands. Rising middle class who see large scale unmet expectations for which they blame the state tend to be the heart of revolutionary movements, not less-educated steady-state poor or working-class.
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#326255 - 06/01/20 12:24 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Ookay... that is clearly an unhinged view of what makes the world go 'round, in my opinion.

Everything is judged in monetary terms, got it!

_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326273 - 06/01/20 03:16 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Ookay... that is clearly an unhinged view of what makes the world go 'round, in my opinion.


Inertia and Gravity make the world go around.

Quote:
Everything is judged in monetary terms, got it


Nope. But economic exchanges tend to be, ever since we left barter behind.
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#326278 - 06/01/20 05:05 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
You might find this to be interesting, unless your confirmation bias is stronger that your inquisitive mind. Enjoy!

_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326280 - 06/01/20 05:35 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Please clarify. Are you equating how much money a person makes with ability to serve each other?

If you don't serve people's needs or wants, in this economy, then they won't give you any money. If you not only serve their needs and wants, but, serve the needs or wants of millions or tens of millions of people in a particularly helpful way, they will give you a lot of money.

Seems quite theoretical to me. I like real life examples (my experience, or your experience).
One example that I know of is lawyers - it is beyond my comprehension, based on my experience, why they can charge so much and do so little of value. In fact, they often do a great deal of damage.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326283 - 06/01/20 06:24 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
The concept of service deserves some discussion - and this, I think, is what most causes me to respond to your comments.

The idea that service to others is best measured by dollars spent, or acquired... I'm tempted to post that fun video again.

I am a fancier of the triple-bottom-line economic theory, where social benefits and environmental benefits are accounted for along with direct monetary benefits.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326296 - 06/01/20 10:18 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Please clarify. Are you equating how much money a person makes with ability to serve each other?

If you don't serve people's needs or wants, in this economy, then they won't give you any money. If you not only serve their needs and wants, but, serve the needs or wants of millions or tens of millions of people in a particularly helpful way, they will give you a lot of money.

Seems quite theoretical to me. I like real life examples (my experience, or your experience).
One example that I know of is lawyers - it is beyond my comprehension, based on my experience, why they can charge so much and do so little of value. In fact, they often do a great deal of damage.


Fair enough. Next time you find yourself in a court case, or dealing with a complex legal subject, where you have a lot riding on the line, go without legal advice and see how you do. smile

One of the beauties of the free market, after all, is that, if you don't think that the good or service being sold is worth the price being charged, you don't have to buy it smile


Edited by CPWILL (06/01/20 10:19 PM)
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#326297 - 06/01/20 11:13 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
You obviously don't have much life experience. For instance, if you don't get good service from a lawyer, how do you not buy it?

(Hint: you always pay in advance.)
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326311 - 06/02/20 05:20 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
You obviously don't have much life experience.


(shrug) I'm in the second half of my 30s.

Quote:
For instance, if you don't get good service from a lawyer, how do you not buy it?

(Hint: you always pay in advance.)


If you think that the lawyer isn't giving you good advice, fire them and get another. Lawyers that are terrible at serving their client's won't do as well as those who are great at it (shrug), and the former can charge more than the latter as a result of the difference in how well they serve their clients.

Or, if you don't think you need someone to serve you in that way, don't hire a lawyer. But they are being paid for providing you a service, not because they hunted you down, stuck a gun in your face, and demanded money.
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#326351 - 06/03/20 07:02 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its very strange. People don't seem to understand that if they are paying somebody to do something, and they don't perform you just get another one. This is particularly true of Attorneys, Accountants, and Doctors. I had a bill collection agency for years. It was one of the best jobs I ever had. Nobody was ever angry with us. It was really quite simple. If they owed the money we files a suit in court. I went through a LOT of attorneys. My main problem was that they all, eventually, wanted more money. I always settled that with just hiring another. There is ALWAYS another attorney! Never got rich but it worked. All the attorney had to do was sign stuff. The computer did all the pleadings and we only rarely went to court. If the debtor had anything we bumped it to superior court. The name of the company was Final Notice.

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#326357 - 06/04/20 12:32 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you think that the lawyer isn't giving you good advice, fire them and get another. Lawyers that are terrible at serving their client's won't do as well as those who are great at it (shrug), and the former can charge more than the latter as a result of the difference in how well they serve their clients.

This is a good example of what I meant by limited life experience. I'm guessing you haven't ever had to hire a lawyer.

My point, which you have dodged fairly completely, is that lawyers can charge an exorbitant amount of money, whether they are good or not. You naively think that the "free market" will separate the good from the bad, but it doesn't. I have engaged too many lawyers in my life, and I have yet to find a single one that does a good, competent, and earnest job. Part of this I blame the legal system for, as I have also never experienced a good judge. They are all interested in "resolution", not "justice" (this has been said to me directly by several). And, if one of them should put the proper effort into prosecuting your case, you'd soon be out of money, before finding justice, much less resolution. They generally do not care one whit about the merits of your case, at least not until the final hours before a court hearing, and then probably still not.

So your "advice" sounds ludicrous to me, the fantasies of someone who has not experienced the reality of it. For that I forgive you, but you might try a bit more introspection before dispensing worthless advice based on hollow ideological beliefs.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326369 - 06/04/20 06:13 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
Hamish Howl Offline
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Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
All you need to do to follow CP Will's advice is be affluent enough to cover a few retainers at a time.

As everyone knows, the average American can totally do that.

This post may contain sarcasm.
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#326370 - 06/04/20 09:16 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Hamish Howl]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
All you need to do to follow CP Will's advice is be affluent enough to cover a few retainers at a time.

As everyone knows, the average American can totally do that.

This post may contain sarcasm.

I suppose you're right... it hadn't occurred to me that a necessary attribute to being a Capitalist is having enough capital on hand to test the free markets for the best deals!
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326383 - 06/05/20 03:15 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
All you need to do to follow CP Will's advice is be affluent enough to cover a few retainers at a time.

As everyone knows, the average American can totally do that.

This post may contain sarcasm.

I suppose you're right... it hadn't occurred to me that a necessary attribute to being a Capitalist is having enough capital on hand to test the free markets for the best deals!


Them what has, gets.
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#326449 - 06/09/20 05:49 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you think that the lawyer isn't giving you good advice, fire them and get another. Lawyers that are terrible at serving their client's won't do as well as those who are great at it (shrug), and the former can charge more than the latter as a result of the difference in how well they serve their clients.

This is a good example of what I meant by limited life experience. I'm guessing you haven't ever had to hire a lawyer.

My point, which you have dodged fairly completely, is that lawyers can charge an exorbitant amount of money, whether they are good or not.


No, they cannot - because other lawyers exist and are in competition with them.

Now, if you want to argue that information is imperfect, then I agree.

But that that is a categorically different question from whether or not they are not serving you, and (again) if you do not want their services, you don't have to purchase them.

So.... yeah. I don't know what you think you are demonstrating other than I-Don't-Like-Lawyers-And-Think-It's-All-A-Racket, but, if you didn't want them to serve you, then you wouldn't hire them.


Quote:
You naively think that the "free market" will separate the good from the bad, but it doesn't. I have engaged too many lawyers in my life, and I have yet to find a single one that does a good, competent, and earnest job. Part of this I blame the legal system for, as I have also never experienced a good judge.


......ever consider that if you've met a lot of lawyers and a lot of judges and you think all of them are bad, maybe it's you?


Edited by CPWILL (06/09/20 05:52 PM)
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#326450 - 06/09/20 05:49 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
All you need to do to follow CP Will's advice is be affluent enough to cover a few retainers at a time.


No. All you need to do to follow cpwill's advice here is be an adult, and recognize that you are responsible for your on actions. If you hire someone to perform a service for you, and agree to pay them X to perform that service because you value that service, going around later claiming it's illegitimate that you paid them to perform a service for you is foolish.


Edited by CPWILL (06/09/20 05:50 PM)
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#326452 - 06/09/20 05:53 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
All you need to do to follow CP Will's advice is be affluent enough to cover a few retainers at a time.

As everyone knows, the average American can totally do that.

This post may contain sarcasm.

I suppose you're right... it hadn't occurred to me that a necessary attribute to being a Capitalist is having enough capital on hand to test the free markets for the best deals!


Them what has, gets.


Thems' as is wise over long periods of time tends to gets. Thems as is foolish tends to lose.
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#326454 - 06/09/20 05:56 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
All you need to do to follow CP Will's advice is be affluent enough to cover a few retainers at a time.

As everyone knows, the average American can totally do that.

This post may contain sarcasm.

I suppose you're right... it hadn't occurred to me that a necessary attribute to being a Capitalist is having enough capital on hand to test the free markets for the best deals!


Them what has, gets.


Thems' as is wise over long periods of time tends to gets. Thems as is foolish tends to lose.


That model does not fit the empirical data.
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#326458 - 06/09/20 06:33 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Please clarify. Are you equating how much money a person makes with ability to serve each other?

If you don't serve people's needs or wants, in this economy, then they won't give you any money. If you not only serve their needs and wants, but, serve the needs or wants of millions or tens of millions of people in a particularly helpful way, they will give you a lot of money.

Seems quite theoretical to me. I like real life examples (my experience, or your experience).
One example that I know of is lawyers - it is beyond my comprehension, based on my experience, why they can charge so much and do so little of value. In fact, they often do a great deal of damage.
Hey now... My favorite saying on the topic is this: next time you're in trouble, ask a comedian for advice.

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#326460 - 06/09/20 06:39 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Actually, that wouldn't work because almost nobody takes a wage in excess of 10 million dollars. Why would they volunteer to pay that much income tax? They take things like stock options, company benefits, etc. Or they just have all the money go to the corporation they control.

A top tier rate of 70% would be great, though. Lots of economists have looked at it, and even the ones who thought the Laffer Curve was valid said 70% was optimal.
I've been advocating that for years. I think at any income status, some level of profit needs to be maintained, but excessive concentration (as we have now) leads to economic instability.

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#326477 - 06/10/20 12:58 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Thems' as is wise over long periods of time tends to gets. Thems as is foolish tends to lose.


That model does not fit the empirical data.


Quite the contrary. A brief overview of American Millionaires (folks who, I think, we can safely say, "has gots") demonstrates precisely that trend.
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#326482 - 06/10/20 06:40 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Thems' as is wise over long periods of time tends to gets. Thems as is foolish tends to lose.


That model does not fit the empirical data.


Quite the contrary. A brief overview of American Millionaires (folks who, I think, we can safely say, "has gots") demonstrates precisely that trend.
I believe that both are true. Them that has, gets more. (Somewhere between 35% and half of multi-millionaires started with an advantage. The problem is that most "studies" of the subject are seriously flawed.) Them that's wise, acquire. To lose, however, one had to have to begin with.

There is a vast gulf, though, between "millionaires" and the super rich. That is poorly understood and shrouded in myths.

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#326484 - 06/10/20 07:28 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Hey now... My favorite saying on the topic is this: next time you're in trouble, ask a comedian for advice.

There have been times I would have been money ahead to have done just that - at least I’d have gotten a laugh out of it!
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326485 - 06/10/20 07:46 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you think that the lawyer isn't giving you good advice, fire them and get another. Lawyers that are terrible at serving their client's won't do as well as those who are great at it (shrug), and the former can charge more than the latter as a result of the difference in how well they serve their clients.

This is a good example of what I meant by limited life experience. I'm guessing you haven't ever had to hire a lawyer.

My point, which you have dodged fairly completely, is that lawyers can charge an exorbitant amount of money, whether they are good or not.


No, they cannot - because other lawyers exist and are in competition with them.

Now, if you want to argue that information is imperfect, then I agree.

But that that is a categorically different question from whether or not they are not serving you, and (again) if you do not want their services, you don't have to purchase them.

So.... yeah. I don't know what you think you are demonstrating other than I-Don't-Like-Lawyers-And-Think-It's-All-A-Racket, but, if you didn't want them to serve you, then you wouldn't hire them.


Quote:
You naively think that the "free market" will separate the good from the bad, but it doesn't. I have engaged too many lawyers in my life, and I have yet to find a single one that does a good, competent, and earnest job. Part of this I blame the legal system for, as I have also never experienced a good judge.


......ever consider that if you've met a lot of lawyers and a lot of judges and you think all of them are bad, maybe it's you?

Yes, I have considered that. In the course of consideration I’ve come to see some very human flaws manifesting in how our system of justice is implemented. It’s a rather interesting and deep subject.

There’s a rule in life that I have learned over time - it came from grant writing for innovative approaches to solving problems, but has other applications as well.

If you find that you need to do much in the way of educating the reviewers so they will understand the issues involved, you ain’t gonna get the funding.

See, the reviewers are always experts in the field, else they wouldn’t have been asked to do the reviewing. A very common characteristic of folks who are experts, but who are not innovators, is that they already know everything and are not likely to be open-minded enough to learn anything new, and will morph new concepts into shapes that fit their pre-made world view (ideologies are like that). I believe a couple of famous phrases were coined for this phenomenon; “Never put new wine in old wineskins”, and, “Don’t throw pearls before swine”. A more modern term for it is “confirmation bias”.

In cogitating another response in our “debate“ (nearly as inappropriate a word as “defund” is for a different current popular topic) I’m getting the spidey sense that to get my point across, the expert reviewer requires too much educating, and he just ain’t interested in learning right now.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326490 - 06/10/20 06:35 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you think that the lawyer isn't giving you good advice, fire them and get another. Lawyers that are terrible at serving their client's won't do as well as those who are great at it (shrug), and the former can charge more than the latter as a result of the difference in how well they serve their clients.

This is a good example of what I meant by limited life experience. I'm guessing you haven't ever had to hire a lawyer.

My point, which you have dodged fairly completely, is that lawyers can charge an exorbitant amount of money, whether they are good or not.


No, they cannot - because other lawyers exist and are in competition with them.

Now, if you want to argue that information is imperfect, then I agree.

But that that is a categorically different question from whether or not they are not serving you, and (again) if you do not want their services, you don't have to purchase them.

So.... yeah. I don't know what you think you are demonstrating other than I-Don't-Like-Lawyers-And-Think-It's-All-A-Racket, but, if you didn't want them to serve you, then you wouldn't hire them.


Quote:
You naively think that the "free market" will separate the good from the bad, but it doesn't. I have engaged too many lawyers in my life, and I have yet to find a single one that does a good, competent, and earnest job. Part of this I blame the legal system for, as I have also never experienced a good judge.


......ever consider that if you've met a lot of lawyers and a lot of judges and you think all of them are bad, maybe it's you?

Yes, I have considered that. In the course of consideration I’ve come to see some very human flaws manifesting in how our system of justice is implemented. It’s a rather interesting and deep subject.

There’s a rule in life that I have learned over time - it came from grant writing for innovative approaches to solving problems, but has other applications as well.

If you find that you need to do much in the way of educating the reviewers so they will understand the issues involved, you ain’t gonna get the funding.

See, the reviewers are always experts in the field, else they wouldn’t have been asked to do the reviewing. A very common characteristic of folks who are experts, but who are not innovators, is that they already know everything and are not likely to be open-minded enough to learn anything new, and will morph new concepts into shapes that fit their pre-made world view (ideologies are like that). I believe a couple of famous phrases were coined for this phenomenon; “Never put new wine in old wineskins”, and, “Don’t throw pearls before swine”. A more modern term for it is “confirmation bias”.

In cogitating another response in our “debate“ (nearly as inappropriate a word as “defund” is for a different current popular topic) I’m getting the spidey sense that to get my point across, the expert reviewer requires too much educating, and he just ain’t interested in learning right now.


smile and how well do ad hominems usually do for you?

If you don't think a lawyer is providing you a service, don't hire one (shrug).
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#326501 - 06/10/20 08:57 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Sometimes metaphors work better than straight talk and facts, especially when there is too much context to share.

Obviously, sometimes they don't.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326506 - 06/11/20 02:13 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Sometimes metaphors work better than straight talk and facts, especially when there is too much context to share.

Obviously, sometimes they don't.


If you don't think that someone is providing you a good or service, don't pay them. Thankfully, with some few exceptions, that's how our system is organized - they only get paid if you, the consumer, think that what they provided is worth the cost.
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#326510 - 06/11/20 02:30 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you don't think that someone is providing you a good or service, don't pay them. Thankfully, with some few exceptions, that's how our system is organized - they only get paid if you, the consumer, think that what they provided is worth the cost.

It's so simple!
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326515 - 06/11/20 03:02 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Thems' as is wise over long periods of time tends to gets. Thems as is foolish tends to lose.


That model does not fit the empirical data.


Quite the contrary. A brief overview of American Millionaires (folks who, I think, we can safely say, "has gots") demonstrates precisely that trend.


Okay. Citation?
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#326525 - 06/11/20 03:53 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Thems' as is wise over long periods of time tends to gets. Thems as is foolish tends to lose.

That model does not fit the empirical data.


Quite the contrary. A brief overview of American Millionaires (folks who, I think, we can safely say, "has gots") demonstrates precisely that trend.


Okay. Citation?


smile Happy to do so.

A 2017 survey from Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of millionaires are self-made, as opposed to inheriting their wealth. They worked most of their lives, lived below their means, saved their money and invested wisely.

That's a slight shift from a few decades ago. When Stanley came out with his study of American millionaires based on research from the late 80s and early to mid 90s, he found that about 80% of millionaires were first-generation rich.

In an update to his work, Ramsey Solutions conducted the largest study of American Millionaires to date (10,000 participants). They found:

  • 79% received no inheritance whatsoever, and an additional 5% received an inheritance that was less than $100K (and so was not responsible for their wealthy status). Only 3% of current millionaires were made so by inheritance.

    8 out of 10 millionaires come from middle at or below the middle class - 48% of millionaires were raised in middle class households, 27% in lower-middle class, and 4.25% in working class.

    Millionaires tend to hold regular-people jobs. You get your Fortune 500 CEOs, but, when you break down the populace of American millionaires by profession, what you find is that the top 3 jobs are Engineer, Accountant, and Teacher (which, I will admit, really threw me for a loop).

    Most don't make massive sums of money. Only 31% averaged $100K or more in income, and only 7% averaged over $200K a year. Most did reach six figure income at some point in their career, but fully a third never did... and are millionaires nonetheless.

    Instead of inheritance or massive income, the number-one contributing factor to net worth was saving and investing over a long period of time. 79% reached millionaire status primarily through employer-sponsor retirement plans, and the average millionaire hit that status at age 49, after living on less than they made and saving for decades. Only 5% reached millionaire status in a decade or less.


They were wise. Over a long period of time. smile


If you like, I do some basic financial counseling on the side. If you want to PM me, I'd be more than happy to go over some numbers with you, get you set up, on a plan, etc - no charge, and, if you don't have a plan at current, it'll be the most profitable time you spend in your life wink.


Edited by CPWILL (06/11/20 03:56 PM)
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#326545 - 06/11/20 09:42 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I note that the survey threshold is millionaires, which is not a very high bar today. Depending on where you live, that could be the value of a not very extravagant home. A person could get there with a normal sort of job and a practical head. They wouldn't necessarily have had to live below their means, or have invested wisely. I'm not arguing that this state of financial affairs wouldn't be comfortable and above the average, but it's not really in the "rich" class.

I also note that the study showed that 12% of millionaires didn't have to work for it. That could be quite a large number of people.

When I was a kid, I recall in the comic strip "Li'l Orphan Annie" a character whose great aspiration to wealth was the princely sum of $10,000.

In summary, I don't believe your citations make much of a point.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326550 - 06/11/20 10:12 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I note that the survey threshold is millionaires, which is not a very high bar today. Depending on where you live, that could be the value of a not very extravagant home.


Which, if you have paid off (which you would have to for all of it to count towards your net worth), means you have managed to store away a million dollars into real-estate; no mean feat.

Quote:
A person could get there with a normal sort of job and a practical head.


That is exactly how most millionaires do so.

Quote:
They wouldn't necessarily have had to live below their means, or have invested wisely.


Well, yes, in fact - firstly, they would have had to avoid living above their means so that they could continue to pay down that mortgage (and that would be one heckuva mortgage). A 30 year million dollar mortgage for someone with a 3.8% interest rate would require a monthly payment of about 5,359 a month, which, even if that was half someone’s income, would mean that, for 30 years straight, their take-home pay was a little under $11K a month, or, $132K a year. Take-home pay is usually around 60% of salary, so, this would mean that the individual in this example (who is still spending 50% of their money on a house!) is earning about $220,000 a year. However, again, we know (see above) that only about 7% of millionaires average earnings this high. So…. You are a bit off, there.

Additionally, as I pointed out, the “It’s-All-In-The-House” path is not - actually - what we find in the finances of most Millionaires, who tend to live in more modest neighborhoods than that. Instead, 79% of them reached millionaire status primarily through employer-sponsor retirement plans, which is exactly the ability to consistently save over a long period of time.

So….. no. This explanation likely only applies to a very, very, small percentage of millionaires.


Quote:
I also note that the study showed that 12% of millionaires didn't have to work for it. That could be quite a large number of people.


No, it stated that 3% of millionaires did not have to work to reach that status.


Edited by CPWILL (06/11/20 10:15 PM)
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#326551 - 06/11/20 10:18 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326552 - 06/11/20 10:25 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you like, I do some basic financial counseling on the side. If you want to PM me, I'd be more than happy to go over some numbers with you, get you set up, on a plan, etc - no charge, and, if you don't have a plan at current, it'll be the most profitable time you spend in your life wink.

Why would I want a free consultation with somebody who doesn't understand how things work?

I have more than a million $$ in assets. I have never had a mortgage payment over $1100 a month. The most taxable income I ever had in a year was $40,000. I don't have any debt. And yes, it's all been legal with no inheritance jumpstart.

Perhaps you would like to schedule a consultation? I'm sorry, but it won't be free.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326556 - 06/11/20 10:57 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
A 2017 survey from Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of millionaires are self-made, as opposed to inheriting their wealth.


Most anyone who isn't a moron has accumulated a million dollars in assets by retirement age. A million dollars just isn't what it used to be now days. "Millionaires" are not the rich. The rich are people netting a million per year in income, and I bet a great many of them inherited a lot of money to begin with.

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#326561 - 06/12/20 12:12 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
A 2017 survey from Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of millionaires are self-made, as opposed to inheriting their wealth.

Most anyone who isn't a moron has accumulated a million dollars in assets by retirement age. A million dollars just isn't what it used to be now days. "Millionaires" are not the rich. The rich are people netting a million per year in income, and I bet a great many of them inherited a lot of money to begin with.

Even an ordinary policeman who is accused of murdering a black man, resulting in yooge race protests all around the country, has a pension worth a million bucks. Hmm
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326562 - 06/12/20 01:47 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
6.71% (or 8,386,508 out of 125,018,808 total U.S. households) can now claim millionaire status.

Free market Capitalism doesn't seem to be working very well at all for 93.29% of Americans.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326568 - 06/12/20 03:42 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you like, I do some basic financial counseling on the side. If you want to PM me, I'd be more than happy to go over some numbers with you, get you set up, on a plan, etc - no charge, and, if you don't have a plan at current, it'll be the most profitable time you spend in your life wink.

Why would I want a free consultation with somebody who doesn't understand how things work?

I have more than a million $$ in assets. I have never had a mortgage payment over $1100 a month. The most taxable income I ever had in a year was $40,000. I don't have any debt. And yes, it's all been legal with no inheritance jumpstart.

Perhaps you would like to schedule a consultation? I'm sorry, but it won't be free.


smile Way to go, man!!! laugh

You made wise decisions over a long period of time, delayed gratification, lived on less than you made, and are an excellent description of precisely what I'm talking about. Well done indeed, sir smile.


Edited by CPWILL (06/12/20 03:42 PM)
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#326569 - 06/12/20 03:43 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
6.71% (or 8,386,508 out of 125,018,808 total U.S. households) can now claim millionaire status.

Free market Capitalism doesn't seem to be working very well at all for 93.29% of Americans.


"Free Market Capitalism Isn't Working Very Well For Most Americans" he typed. Into an affordable computer. That allowed him to communicate instantly around the globe and offered him access to almost the entirety of human knowledge. For roughly the price of a week's work.


Americans enjoy a level of wealth and standard of living today unmatched in human history thanks to Free Market Capitalism smile But, if you don't like it, there are plenty of countries around the globe trying out different options. smile


Edited by CPWILL (06/12/20 03:45 PM)
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#326571 - 06/12/20 04:12 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 601
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
6.71% (or 8,386,508 out of 125,018,808 total U.S. households) can now claim millionaire status.

Free market Capitalism doesn't seem to be working very well at all for 93.29% of Americans.


"Free Market Capitalism Isn't Working Very Well For Most Americans" he typed. Into an affordable computer. That allowed him to communicate instantly around the globe and offered him access to almost the entirety of human knowledge. For roughly the price of a week's work.


Americans enjoy a level of wealth and standard of living today unmatched in human history thanks to Free Market Capitalism smile But, if you don't like it, there are plenty of countries around the globe trying out different options. smile


What's amazing is that the internet was created by the military and universities, and is not the result of capitalism.
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#326573 - 06/12/20 05:08 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Americans enjoy a level of wealth and standard of living today unmatched in human history thanks to Free Market Capitalism

I reckon you will be posting some thoughts over in the "Wealth" topic? Since you are using the word, you must have something in mind about what it means.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326574 - 06/12/20 05:10 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Quote:
You made wise decisions over a long period of time, delayed gratification, lived on less than you made, and are an excellent description of precisely what I'm talking about. Well done indeed, sir smile.

You have a very infertile imagination, but a super solid ideology, it appears.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326609 - 06/14/20 03:48 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Quote:
You made wise decisions over a long period of time, delayed gratification, lived on less than you made, and are an excellent description of precisely what I'm talking about. Well done indeed, sir smile.

You have a very infertile imagination, but a super solid ideology, it appears.


"Ideology" is simply a word that roughly covers "how you think things work". I've provided supporting evidence and citations for my ideology - math, history, and social science are pretty much on my side on this one.

The question isn't whether or not one has an ideology - we all do - it is whether or not your ideology conforms best to the available evidence.


Edited by CPWILL (06/14/20 03:49 PM)
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#326610 - 06/14/20 03:50 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Americans enjoy a level of wealth and standard of living today unmatched in human history thanks to Free Market Capitalism

I reckon you will be posting some thoughts over in the "Wealth" topic? Since you are using the word, you must have something in mind about what it means.


I intend to, but - props - it's a really good question, and I want to sit and think for a bit first before I respond.
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#326638 - 06/15/20 11:14 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Quote:
You made wise decisions over a long period of time, delayed gratification, lived on less than you made, and are an excellent description of precisely what I'm talking about. Well done indeed, sir smile.

You have a very infertile imagination, but a super solid ideology, it appears.

"Ideology" is simply a word that roughly covers "how you think things work". I've provided supporting evidence and citations for my ideology - math, history, and social science are pretty much on my side on this one.

The question isn't whether or not one has an ideology - we all do - it is whether or not your ideology conforms best to the available evidence.

This definition comports with my understanding of the word:
Quote:
An ideology is a set of beliefs or philosophies attributed to a person or group of persons, especially as held for reasons that are not purely epistemic, in which "practical elements are as prominent as theoretical ones."

Everyone does not necessarily have a particular ideology about a thing, especially if they remain open to new evidence and rationales.

It has been my intent in attempting to discuss Capitalism with you to present some novel evidence and rationales for you to use for re-evaluating your Capitalist ideology, if you are not too set in its theoretical bonds. So far I perceive that your Capitalist ideology is pretty well concreted in.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326641 - 06/16/20 04:55 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Capitalist ideology


It's an ideology that has begun to change the very climate of this planet. It has created vast seas of plastic. It has begun the melting of the ice caps at the poles and raising the sea levels.

It's a powerful ideology.

Given free reign it will utterly destroy us.

Change my mind.
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#326642 - 06/16/20 07:33 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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It's like fire: A great tool if you limit and control it. A huge disaster if you don't.
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#326644 - 06/16/20 12:19 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
It's like fire: A great tool if you limit and control it. A huge disaster if you don't.

I wonder why some folks insist that a complex system of human interactions be named by one of its sub-systems, one that can’t even be accurately defined? It appears that reason for this irrational action is for the purpose of denying the existence of other components of the complete system that also can’t be accurately defined!
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326650 - 06/16/20 05:46 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Remember, Republicans/Conservatives believe that ALL regulation is stealing freedom from those being regulated. That is why they hate government and want it gone. Politics have degrees and the current crop of Republicans/Conservatives have gone full right, for the most part. That is, basically, the problem with politics, there are degrees. The Democrats too have problems in that regard, in their case they go to far to the left if given half a chance. They do have, however, one step up on the other side in that regulation is built into their system of belief so that going that far tends to get regulated automatically.

I find it interesting that our media loves to cover the extremes, on both sides, with vigor and blather. I think that the middle just bores them - on either side.

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#326662 - 06/17/20 03:08 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: jgw
Remember, Republicans/Conservatives believe that ALL regulation is stealing freedom from those being regulated. That is why they hate government and want it gone.


Uh. That is not even close to what they argue or want.

Quote:
I find it interesting that our media loves to cover the extremes, on both sides, with vigor and blather. I think that the middle just bores them - on either side.


How interesting, then, that you believed them about the other side, but not your own. wink


Edited by CPWILL (06/17/20 03:09 PM)
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#326663 - 06/17/20 03:12 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
It has been my intent in attempting to discuss Capitalism with you to present some novel evidence and rationales for you to use for re-evaluating your Capitalist ideology, if you are not too set in its theoretical bonds. So far I perceive that your Capitalist ideology is pretty well concreted in.


If you are attempting to present novel evidence or rationales, respectfully, I've not seen them. The idea that you have to pay for a service rendered is not, exactly, novel or something that would require a reevaluation of Capitalism.
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#326664 - 06/17/20 03:13 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
It's like fire: A great tool if you limit and control it. A huge disaster if you don't.


One of Washington's better quotes smile
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#326665 - 06/17/20 03:17 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Capitalist ideology


It's an ideology that has begun to change the very climate of this planet. It has created vast seas of plastic. It has begun the melting of the ice caps at the poles and raising the sea levels.

It's a powerful ideology.

Given free reign it will utterly destroy us.

Change my mind
.



(shrug) up until now it has done the exact opposite - lifted more people out of poverty than anything else in human history, and allowed us to support more people living than anything else in human history. It has created advancements that allow us to live longer, better, more fruitful lives.

That won't change your mind. People tend to take what we have for granted smile But I do find the idea that that which has proven least destructive to us will in fact destroy us to be sort of faith-based, rather than evidentiary.


Edited by CPWILL (06/17/20 03:28 PM)
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#326666 - 06/17/20 04:31 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16930
Loc: Florida
So you deny the evidence of climate change?

You deny the evidence of plastic pollution?

You deny the evidence that capitalism is responsible?

It has not lifted people out of poverty. There are more hungry people today than ever before in history. There are more poverty stricken communities than ever before in history.

You maintain your faith in capitalism because you are one of the few who has profited from it.

What success capitalism has achieved among the few has cost the rest dearly.
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#326669 - 06/17/20 04:53 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Interesting. For the first, its not what they want its what they do not want.

Second, what is my side? I am not sure what you think I am believing. Actually I believe they like to cover extremes, on both sides! I never inferred otherwise.

I have noticed that you goals seem to piss everybody off. Sorry about that. You go right ahead and have a nice time. Fine with me but pardon me if I ignore you from now on out.

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#326680 - 06/18/20 12:22 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Sorry old man, those things are not allowed to be brought into the sacred chapel of the Capitalist ideology. I'm not sure if it is because of the "you makes yer choices" chapter, or the "regulations are badness in true free markets" passages.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326681 - 06/18/20 12:27 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
(shrug) up until now it has done the exact opposite - lifted more people out of poverty than anything else in human history, and allowed us to support more people living than anything else in human history. It has created advancements that allow us to live longer, better, more fruitful lives.

Couple of things...

1) What is your proof that those things are true and that they are solely the product of free-market Capitalism?

2) Have you done an accounting to see if the 'wealth' created is worth more than the cost of the raw materials and externalized costs?

Show us that your Capitalist ideology is more than undocumented beliefs, if you will.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326682 - 06/18/20 12:31 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you are attempting to present novel evidence or rationales, respectfully, I've not seen them. The idea that you have to pay for a service rendered is not, exactly, novel or something that would require a reevaluation of Capitalism.

That has been covered in the 'pearls before swine' post. It's very difficult for people with hard ideologies to see things that threaten their ideology. There is another metaphysical aphorism that says, 'the lower cannot see the higher'.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326784 - 06/20/20 08:06 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Greger
So you deny the evidence of climate change?


I think that those who have - with certainty - proclaimed Doom, DOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM for years are hyperbolic fools, and will continue to be proven incorrect. We vastly overestimate our ability to produce certainty in this highly complex (not complicated - complex) area.

Quote:
You deny the evidence of plastic pollution?


Nope. But I think the doomsdayers here are no wiser than their forefathers, and likely to be proven just as accurate.

Quote:
You deny the evidence that capitalism is responsible?


Feel free to check out the environmental record of the USSR. It is the later stage capitalist countries who have the wealth to care about niceties like environmental concerns, and, generally, it is the capitalist system (which abhors waste of potentially useful resources) that is best situated and equipped to make advances and discoveries that serve them.

Quote:
It has not lifted people out of poverty.


On the contrary - free trade has lifted billions of people out of poverty and is, thus far, the only sustainable mechanism we have found for doing so.

Quote:
There are more hungry people today than ever before in history.


This is ultimately a self-defeating argument - it depends on the fact that there are more people than ever before in history because we can feed them and keep them alive so they don't starve or fall to preventable disease. It depends, in fact, on the success of capitalism in order to critique it smile.


In addition to being logically self-defeating, it is also factually incorrect:

  • TO PEOPLE who believe that the world used to be a better place, and especially to those who argue that globalisation has done more economic harm than good, there is a simple, powerful riposte: chart 1, below. In 1981 some 42% of the world’s population were extremely poor, according to the World Bank. They were not just poorer than a large majority of their compatriots, as many rich countries define poverty among their own citizens today, but absolutely destitute. At best, they had barely enough money to eat and pay for necessities like clothes. At worst, they starved.

    Since then the number of people in absolute poverty has fallen by about 1bn and the number of non-poor people has gone up by roughly 4bn. By 2013, the most recent year for which reliable data exist, just 10.7% of the world’s population was poor (the modern yardstick for destitution is that a person consumes less than $1.90 a day at 2011 purchasing-power parity). Poverty has almost certainly retreated further since 2013: the World Bank’s finger-in-the-wind estimate for 2016 is 9.1%....




Quote:
You maintain your faith in capitalism because you are one of the few who has profited from it.


If by one of the few you mean one of the majority of humans.


Edited by CPWILL (06/20/20 08:16 PM)
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#326786 - 06/20/20 08:12 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
If you are attempting to present novel evidence or rationales, respectfully, I've not seen them. The idea that you have to pay for a service rendered is not, exactly, novel or something that would require a reevaluation of Capitalism.

That has been covered in the 'pearls before swine' post. It's very difficult for people with hard ideologies to see things that threaten their ideology. There is another metaphysical aphorism that says, 'the lower cannot see the higher'.


Uhuh. Let me know if you ever actually come across with any actual evidence or rational other than "I don't like having to pay for a service I nonetheless wish to consume". Are we to assume, here on the celebration of Juneteenth, that you wish we had a system of laws such that would force a class of people to perform labor for you for free?


Edited by CPWILL (06/20/20 08:17 PM)
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#326800 - 06/20/20 10:23 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Loc: One of the Mexicos
Deep end. You apparently think that Capitalism means using money to buy things, and that constitutes a some kind of a governing system that produces endless good and bounty?
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326807 - 06/21/20 01:04 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Deep end. You apparently think that Capitalism means using money to buy things


No, that's simply trade using money. That is a requirement of Capitalism and part and parcel of it, sure, but hardly the whole of hte system.

Quote:
and that constitutes a some kind of a governing system that produces endless good and bounty?


Certainly not. As an economic system of organization it is the least bad we've found thus far, and the only one that produces an ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty, which is generally well to the good.


Edited by CPWILL (06/21/20 01:05 AM)
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#326814 - 06/21/20 03:10 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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There has never existed a system of Capitalism that wasn’t tempered by many other systems at the same time. Ergo, it is impossible to credit the ideology of Capitalism for anything. It is a chimera, a fantasy, a delusion. An ideology that tries to present itself as a golden solution.

Reality is much more interesting.
_________________________
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326846 - 06/21/20 07:04 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty


Most scientists qualified to know. say we hit the limits a while back, and now are destroying our only planet by the externalization of costs that are an ever-present side effect of overly unregulated capitalism.

Obvious cases are global warming and the presence of micro-plastic fragments everywhere. But it's been coming for a long time: Industrial water and air pollution, mine tailings, and strip mining come to mind.

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#326851 - 06/21/20 07:29 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty


Most scientists qualified to know. say we hit the limits a while back, and now are destroying our only planet by the externalization of costs that are an ever-present side effect of overly unregulated capitalism.

Obvious cases are global warming and the presence of micro-plastic fragments everywhere. But it's been coming for a long time: Industrial water and air pollution, mine tailings, and strip mining come to mind.


I have seen variations of this argument made many times. What I have not seen it do is make predictions that turn out to be correct, whether it's the Peak Oil cause or the periodic warnings that We Only Have 10 Years Before It Is Too Late (only to find out, ten years later, that now We Only Have Ten Years....)

Instead, late-stage capitalism has turned out to be the only system in which we are able to prioritize things like taking care of the environment and develop the technology that allows us to do so (compare, if you like, air pollution in major U.S. Cities in 1990 to air pollution there now, or, if you like, air pollution in current major U.S. cities to air pollution in major Chinese or Indian cities). Nations who seriously struggle with entrenched poverty don't care if they wreck portions of the environment - they are trying to deal with brutal poverty. Nations desperately trying to escape poverty care a lot less because their focus of effort, naturally, is on reducing the numbers of people still trapped in the mire. Nations who are wealthy, however? We have the space and the cash to care, and so we do.

Thanks to Capitalism and the innovation it spawns, we aren't "running out of resources" - our ability to leverage existing resources and discover and utilize new resources is growing.
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#326852 - 06/21/20 07:30 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
There has never existed a system of Capitalism that wasn’t tempered by many other systems at the same time. Ergo, it is impossible to credit the ideology of Capitalism for anything. It is a chimera, a fantasy, a delusion. An ideology that tries to present itself as a golden solution.

Reality is much more interesting.


People who make that argument often tend to have "Capitalism" confused with "No Laws".

But, no. Like the No True Socialism debate, Capitalism doesn't conveniently exist when we want to blame it for something and then cease to exist when we wish to avoid giving it credit.


Edited by CPWILL (06/21/20 07:31 PM)
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#326860 - 06/21/20 11:25 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty


Most scientists qualified to know. say we hit the limits a while back, and now are destroying our only planet by the externalization of costs that are an ever-present side effect of overly unregulated capitalism.

Obvious cases are global warming and the presence of micro-plastic fragments everywhere. But it's been coming for a long time: Industrial water and air pollution, mine tailings, and strip mining come to mind.


I have seen variations of this argument made many times. What I have not seen it do is make predictions that turn out to be correct, whether it's the Peak Oil cause or the periodic warnings that We Only Have 10 Years Before It Is Too Late (only to find out, ten years later, that now We Only Have Ten Years....)

Instead, late-stage capitalism has turned out to be the only system in which we are able to prioritize things like taking care of the environment and develop the technology that allows us to do so (compare, if you like, air pollution in major U.S. Cities in 1990 to air pollution there now, or, if you like, air pollution in current major U.S. cities to air pollution in major Chinese or Indian cities). Nations who seriously struggle with entrenched poverty don't care if they wreck portions of the environment - they are trying to deal with brutal poverty. Nations desperately trying to escape poverty care a lot less because their focus of effort, naturally, is on reducing the numbers of people still trapped in the mire. Nations who are wealthy, however? We have the space and the cash to care, and so we do.

Thanks to Capitalism and the innovation it spawns, we aren't "running out of resources" - our ability to leverage existing resources and discover and utilize new resources is growing.

Such a lot of magical thinking.

Please explain how Capitalism is what spawns innovation.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326921 - 06/26/20 01:46 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
ever-growing (which is not the same as endless) bounty


Most scientists qualified to know. say we hit the limits a while back, and now are destroying our only planet by the externalization of costs that are an ever-present side effect of overly unregulated capitalism.

Obvious cases are global warming and the presence of micro-plastic fragments everywhere. But it's been coming for a long time: Industrial water and air pollution, mine tailings, and strip mining come to mind.


I have seen variations of this argument made many times. What I have not seen it do is make predictions that turn out to be correct, whether it's the Peak Oil cause or the periodic warnings that We Only Have 10 Years Before It Is Too Late (only to find out, ten years later, that now We Only Have Ten Years....)

Instead, late-stage capitalism has turned out to be the only system in which we are able to prioritize things like taking care of the environment and develop the technology that allows us to do so (compare, if you like, air pollution in major U.S. Cities in 1990 to air pollution there now, or, if you like, air pollution in current major U.S. cities to air pollution in major Chinese or Indian cities). Nations who seriously struggle with entrenched poverty don't care if they wreck portions of the environment - they are trying to deal with brutal poverty. Nations desperately trying to escape poverty care a lot less because their focus of effort, naturally, is on reducing the numbers of people still trapped in the mire. Nations who are wealthy, however? We have the space and the cash to care, and so we do.

Thanks to Capitalism and the innovation it spawns, we aren't "running out of resources" - our ability to leverage existing resources and discover and utilize new resources is growing.

Such a lot of magical thinking.


None of that is magical thinking - it's a rough history of the past 50 years. It's what we've already seen.

Quote:
Please explain how Capitalism is what spawns innovation.


It provides both the incentives and the means. It wasn't foreknowledge of Covid or a desire to make it easier for all mankind to stay in their homes that caused Jeff Bezos to found Amazon, or Steve Jobs to come up with a handheld device through which I can download apps that will deliver restaurant food to my door - it was because they were in the business of making a profit. Capitalist societies are far and away the most innovative - that's not magic, that's simple fact.


Edited by CPWILL (06/26/20 01:49 AM)
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#326924 - 06/26/20 04:09 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
...it was because they were in the business of making a profit...

Um...no. Amazon didn't turn a profit for nearly 20 years. Steve Job wanted to invent cool things. More rightwing revisionist history being pushed here at Reader Rant pimping two of conservatives favorite things in life: money and greed.

Hmm , rolleyes
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#326929 - 06/26/20 05:42 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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I don't really think Capitalism is the enemy here: It's externalization. When somebody or some company can turn a profit by delivering goods or services we all want at a reasonable price, that's a good thing. When they can only do that by sticking somebody else with part of their costs by externalization, thats a bad thing. It's just like theft.

That's the problem with Walmart. They depend on the government to supplement their workers' salaries with "free" medical care and food stamps. Of course, those things are not really free. They just get taxpayers to pay them.

The oil and gas industry is rife with externalization, often their victims are everybody on Earth.

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#326930 - 06/26/20 06:02 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42977
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
..When somebody or some company can turn a profit by delivering goods or services we all want at a reasonable price, that's a good thing...

Sounds like Costco. Funny thing about Costco - it's the epitome of socialism. Everyone gets the same pay, everyone does the same work, everyone gets cross-trained to do two or more jobs.

Hourlies all make the same: Starting is $15.00/hr, top-out is $25.65/hr
Supervisors all make $27.15/hr
Managers start at $30.00
Administrative Managers start at $35.00

Everyone gets the same health plan.
Everyone gets 9 days a year of sick leave

Everyone gets a minimum of 2 weeks vacation.
One week is added for every 5 years of service topping off at 5 weeks a year.

Everyone with over 12,000 service hours gets a $2,500 bonus twice a year.


smile
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#326931 - 06/26/20 11:41 AM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
None of that is magical thinking - it's a rough history of the past 50 years. It's what we've already seen.

So correlation is causation in your ideology? Can you think of any other correlations for the same period of history?

Cancer causes cellphones

Quote:
Please explain how Capitalism is what spawns innovation.

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
It provides both the incentives and the means.

My business is innovation. In my experience (let’s call that a verified data point), Capitalism isn’t what spawns innovation.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#326945 - 06/26/20 09:00 PM Re: The Maximum Wage [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10000
Loc: North San Diego County
Wow, Costco sounds like a great place to work. I'm going to quote you to my nieces.

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