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#324789 - 04/26/20 03:25 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 481
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


What tax is voluntarily paid? Hmm We just pay it and grumble.


It was simply the most obvious and immediate example of how Bernie, yes, is absolutely willing to force his policy changes on people.
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#324790 - 04/26/20 03:49 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 481
Firstly, thanks for this well-thought-out piece.

I think, however, that you may be inaccurately describing capitalism.

Originally Posted By: logtroll
So what's this Capitalism vs inheritance stuff got to do with the question about a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? Here are my thoughts:

It is my observation that "capitalism" and "free markets" are theories in chaos - nobody knows what they mean with any degree of precision or consistency. Our colleague CPWill gave a crystal clear example in his Lawn Mower Man Gives Large Inheritance To His Children vignette. The first part (though lacking in sufficient context to be really sure) depicts Lawn Mower Man as a the classic self-made entrepreneur - sounds like classic meritocracy at work.


:shrug: it was the ability to live on less than you make and save and invest over long periods of time to build up real wealth and achieve financial independence - including on a low income. It's actually a fairly typical story for the modern American millionaire.

Quote:
In the second part, LMM undermines free market Capitalism by giving his children an unfair boost in the merit race of life.


.....No. Nothing is undermined by my friend receiving $5K a year for the next 5 years from his grandfather's estate, or, for that matter, if he was receiving $5 million (other than, perhaps, the increased risk to my friend in the latter scenario).

Quote:
I am inclined to explain this inconsistency as an indication that most people actually think that Capitalism means accumulating and controlling as much wealth as you can, and doesn't really have any coherent, consistent functional philosophy driving it.


I can't argue that this seems to be a popular underpinning fallacy among it's opponents, but, that is not the theory of Capitalism.

Quote:
If we truly had a governing system of Capitalism, we would strive to make sure that all people had an equal opportunity at the start


That is also not the theory of Capitalism. Not only can you NOT make sure that all people have an equal opportunity at the start (people will always have different IQ's, different EQ's, some will be taller or more attractive than others, some will have two parents while others are raised by one, etc.), but there is nothing inherent in Capitalism that suggests we should want to try.

Quote:
- ensure that the rules of the game of a meretricious life were the same for everybody, and to provide a cushion for when things go wrong through no fault of the player.


This can (and probably should) be bolted on to Capitalism, but, it is not the same as "making sure everyone has equal opportunity at the start".

Quote:
I think that this view of things gives a great deal of credibility to the "wacky" socialistic notions of a universal basic income, to government provided education, and to universal healthcare. That would be Capitalism with a heart and soul.


....no. That would be the engine of Capitalism trying to pull a massively heavy load of UBI and Single Payer. And, for what it's worth, probably failing.

Quote:
The present chaotic version of free market Capitalism where the goal is the achievement of "financial independence", independent of the rest of the world and insulated against the spectre of cooperation, is soulless and heartless.


Not at all. In fact, Capitalism has produced more voluntary cooperation than any other system in human history, and more global cooperation across cultures, nations, religions, and races than any other system in human history. Free Trade aligns the individual interests of each of us against the task of serving the others.

Quote:
Such a "system" has no interest in solving the pandemic or in avoiding economic collapse, since the winners expect that they have risen above it all - "I got mine, it's your responsibility to get yours!"


This is also a false picture of Capitalism. If you had the ability to develop and sell a cure, that is precisely what you want to do. If you have the ability to get a cure into the marketplace so you can go back to production, that is precisely what you want to do. If you can re-secure our supply chains so that we can continue to maximize our ability to increase the standard of living of the American working and middle class by providing them with goods and services at lower costs, then that is precisely what you want to do.

The "I Got Mine!" approach is something I've heard many leftists hurl as a slur, and that I've heard zero people who actually have wealth ever evince.

Quote:
In closing, I offer you exhibit A: Donald Trump.


Trump isn't a Capitalist or a Free Trade proponent.


Edited by CPWILL (04/26/20 03:52 PM)
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#324791 - 04/26/20 03:50 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10779
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Guess you didn't read the linked paper.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#324793 - 04/26/20 03:56 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 481
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Guess you didn't read the linked paper.


Not only did I not read it, I didn't see it linked. :p
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#324797 - 04/26/20 06:36 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3948
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its always been interesting to me when somebody says that the Scananavians are all socialist countries. This is just not true. Basically they have all said that they are not socialist countries. At least one is actually a monarchy! Here is a reference:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorf...t/#622c135974ad

I would add that Bernie lost, in part, because he continued to claim to be a Socialist. For me this means that there is more agreement for my side than the other. It doesn't mean I win, or lose, simply that there is a voting public that is not all that entranced with "Socialism" regardless of mitigating words like "Democratic". In this particular instance the American Voting Public got it right (something they tend to eschew, more and more, as time passes).

As far as I know there are NO socialist countries. There are, however, a lot of countries that have legislated services that are paid for with taxes that serve the common good. This should not be confused with socialism. Socialism, by dictionary is said to control ALL means of production by the state. Now, however, there are degrees of 'socialism' which is, basically, a quibble. There are socially beneficial services that can be supplied by the state. The United states have a number of these like; police, fire department, Social Security, etc. That does not make the United States a Socialist country. A Socialist country, as far as I can tell is one where the government controls EVERYTHING claiming that EVERYTHING needs to be run by the state for the citizens of that nation.

We have been through this innumerable times, over and over again. Minor term quibbles do not change the simple fact of what a Socialist State is. Communism is, basically, what happens to a Socialist State in the end.

I also know that many disagree and that's just fine with me. I am not convinced that this can ever be agreed on by everybody. That too is dandy for me - sometimes that happens. Life goes on.............


Edited by jgw (04/26/20 06:40 PM)

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#324816 - 04/26/20 09:25 PM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10779
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Guess you didn't read the linked paper.


Not only did I not read it, I didn't see it linked. :p


Look again...
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#324821 - 04/27/20 12:00 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43812
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


What tax is voluntarily paid? Hmm We just pay it and grumble.


It was simply the most obvious and immediate example of how Bernie, yes, is absolutely willing to force his policy changes on people.

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I offer a trade. All the True Blue MAGA Believers gargle bleach if all the True Blue Socialists agree to immigrate to North Korea, Venezuela, or Cuba, where they can live out their fantasy in paradise laugh

Conflating democratic socialism with dictatorial socialism is a fool's errand. Hmm

You have to admit that democratic socialism was the only tool to get us Americans through the pandemic, capitalism certainly failed us.

smile

Still ***crickets*** coffee
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#324822 - 04/27/20 12:09 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: pdx rick]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 481
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


What tax is voluntarily paid? Hmm We just pay it and grumble.


It was simply the most obvious and immediate example of how Bernie, yes, is absolutely willing to force his policy changes on people.

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I offer a trade. All the True Blue MAGA Believers gargle bleach if all the True Blue Socialists agree to immigrate to North Korea, Venezuela, or Cuba, where they can live out their fantasy in paradise laugh

Conflating democratic socialism with dictatorial socialism is a fool's errand. Hmm

You have to admit that democratic socialism was the only tool to get us Americans through the pandemic, capitalism certainly failed us.

smile

Still ***crickets*** coffee


based on what? I have to admit no such thing as no such thing is self-evident. Quite the contrary - several government's and governmental organizations appear to have screwed this pandemic up spectacularly.
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#324824 - 04/27/20 12:15 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: CPWILL]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43812
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


What tax is voluntarily paid? Hmm We just pay it and grumble.


It was simply the most obvious and immediate example of how Bernie, yes, is absolutely willing to force his policy changes on people.

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I offer a trade. All the True Blue MAGA Believers gargle bleach if all the True Blue Socialists agree to immigrate to North Korea, Venezuela, or Cuba, where they can live out their fantasy in paradise laugh

Conflating democratic socialism with dictatorial socialism is a fool's errand. Hmm

You have to admit that democratic socialism was the only tool to get us Americans through the pandemic, capitalism certainly failed us.

smile

Still ***crickets*** coffee


based on what? I have to admit no such thing as no such thing is self-evident. Quite the contrary - several government's and governmental organizations appear to have screwed this pandemic up spectacularly.

Nice deflection.

Based on so many businesses closed and 26M Americans ou of work. How's that for a starter?

How is capitalism working out for you today? Are you working? Have you cashed your Trump check yet? coffee
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#324825 - 04/27/20 12:16 AM Re: Is there a free market solution for the pandemic and economic collapse? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 481
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Guess you didn't read the linked paper.


Not only did I not read it, I didn't see it linked. :p


Look again...


Okedoke. Went and read it - the guy likes to assume his conclusions, and it changes nothing I wrote. So.....
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