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#326219 - 05/30/20 05:27 PM Burn and Destroy
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3604
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Last night the White Supremists AND the Anarchists were out in force. This happened in, as far as I can tell, just about every city int he United States! So, we had the folks who were upset about the murder by a policeman who should have been fired a very long time ago. I have no doubt that every march started with those upset about something that deserved to be upset about.

Its pretty much agreed, by the talking heads of TV, that when an opportunity to raise hell occurs the Supremists and Anarchists will be there in force. I can remember the good old days when those groups also brought their flags with them. (the Anarchist flag is black, the Supremists have many as they are a conglomerate of haters) Its gonna get interesting. You can count on videos being gone over and faces remembered by computer. The problem is that recognition software may, or may not, be able to do that when the person is wearing a mask. But, given the capacities of some of this software I suspect almost anything is possible.

The people who are actually marching, and not real interested in burning and destruction, don't do anything to stop the burning and destruction (other than taking videos). That is a shame. When the burning and destruction starts their message is lost and they have wasted their time. Along with that they are also being associated with them that would burn and destroy so they not only have lost chance to send a message but are now also being thought of as part of the burn and destroy folks. At the risk of offending I would add that burn and destroy actually hurts the cause of the march itself as well as those who do the marching. it would be easy to go a lot further about this but the point is made.

The Burn and Destroy folks are already, for the most part, known to the FBI and are considered to be seriously dangerous to the well being of the nation.

However, what if those who march partnered with the police (I know - unlikely). BUT, if they could do that, thereby giving the police a chance to deal with the burn and destroy folks, things might get different fast. The police, for instance, could mark the miscreants and then search them out (they could, for instance, attach a location pin to each one) later for attention. They could also join with the police to stop ANY burn and destroy that might occur. If the two could work together I think a LOT of good could come of it. What comes to mind, of course, is; "when pigs fly"........

I was going to put this into another posting but, on reflection, it probably deserves its own.

One last. Its often said that two extremes can tend to meet at the same place. White Supremists are Anarchists are a really good example of that one.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pkyb9...a-new-civil-war


Edited by jgw (05/30/20 06:02 PM)

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#326223 - 05/30/20 07:35 PM Re: Burn and Destroy [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17282
Loc: Florida
It all could have been stopped if they'd arrested him as soon as the videotape emerged.

It could have been prevented if they had fired him because of the other 18 complaints against him. Does he handle all routine stops like this?

Or is this an outright murder? Possibly a hate crime. He knew Douglas.
He worked with the man he killed.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#326225 - 05/30/20 07:48 PM Re: Burn and Destroy [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 444
Originally Posted By: Greger
It all could have been stopped if they'd arrested him as soon as the videotape emerged.


Eh, if that were true, there would have been no riots after his arrest. Those are ongoing - I don't think, honestly, that the killing of Floyd is the main driver of the riots, though it is the immediate precipitating event of the protests.

Quote:
It could have been prevented if they had fired him because of the other 18 complaints against him. Does he handle all routine stops like this?

Or is this an outright murder? Possibly a hate crime. He knew Douglas.
He worked with the man he killed.


I understand he's been charged with Murder 3rd Degree.
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

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#326228 - 05/30/20 09:05 PM Re: Burn and Destroy [Re: CPWILL]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7271
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
if that were true, there would have been no riots after his arrest
One does not follow the other.

The riots have their own inertia separate from the protests.

Quote:
I don't think, honestly, that the killing of Floyd is the main driver of the riots, though it is the immediate precipitating event of the protests.
This could be very accurate.

Conservatives have long failed to recognize the underlying problems by either burying their collective heads in the sand or simply denying it exists. Liberals have never found an "easy" fix for the problem, and so fumble from one "solution" to another. When I was young I thought 3 generations would fix it. Man was I ever wrong. I see the fundamental problem as conservatives (and especially Trump supporters) believe there will always be a problem with blacks as long as they do not become white.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
Get off the crazy train!!! ... dump Trump

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#326246 - 05/31/20 08:53 PM Re: Burn and Destroy [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10351
Loc: North San Diego County
One thing I worry about is all the protesters AND police who are now infected with the virus. The usual police tactic of tackling and wrestling people to the ground may be a death sentence for either the protester or the cop. It's like protesters may be wearing suicide vests right now. You DO NOT want to be wrestling with them, much less touching them. Even if you are wearing a mask, they do more to protect others from you than protecting you. The worst thing you can do, health-wise, is to touch anybody or especially to tear off their mask.

I expect a big surge in hospital admissions in a week or two, and then the deaths in about a month.

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#326248 - 05/31/20 09:34 PM Re: Burn and Destroy [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3604
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Last night, and this morning, we watched the looting of downtown Seattle. This has never happened in the history of that city. We also watched the looting of Portland Oregon and a variety of different other cities. This morning my wife watched Sunday politics and I watched some of it.

The Seattle thing was absolutely amazing. We watched groups of police watch groups of looters loot whilst they stood by. TV folk told us that was because the police were outnumbered. This seemed to be true as they always seemed to do something if they outnumbered the looters. Basically, at least in Seattle, that them in charge watched this happen for two nights before. This was the 3rd night so they called out something like 200 national guard folk - unarmed. What obviously happened was two things. First, they basically ignored the looting of the first two nights and, second, they REALLY underestimated the criminal elements of the first two nights, ie. White Supremacists and Anarchists. Oh, I also suspect a little bit of; "they wouldn't dare!".

We also watch the looting, etc. of cities in Minnesota. After two night the governor of that state had had enough and turned out something like 16,000 national guard. I don't know what the result is but I have to assume that with 16,000 national guard, the state patrol, and the police they probably had stuff under control. If they didn't then they have a REALLY serious problem.

Anyway, the Sunday politics was very strange indeed. Major cities, in the United States, were looted last night. As far as I know this is the first time this has happened. Sunday politics, however, seemed to be ignoring that completely and were centered on bad police and a variety of black causes. Apparently, for our media the looting of cities is not so important as black causes. I am not saying black causes don't count but, again basically, our police got out manned, apparently out gunned, and seemed to just give up. I find this absolutely incredible. Let me say it again in a slightly different way. In the United States of America those public forces (police, national guard, FBI, etc) LOST! They lost, as far as I am concerned, to two organizations; White Supemacists and Anarchists. Our FBI has been telling us, for years, that those two are dangerous and need serious attention. Our response was to elect a president who not only likes those two operations but counts on them for his support. This tends to make me a little nervous, but, apparently, everything is dandy, or media, and the news, are kinda ignoring anything even happened!

I watched on Sunday show where they were congratulating the defeated for not shooting anybody as they were all, as far as I could see, saying that what happened was just a bunch of wayward teenagers on a lark. In Seattle Nordstrom's headquarters and flagship store was looted! The simple fact is that Seattle is no longer a safe city and it has a LOT of company in that regard. In spite of that our news seems to be ignoring that one.

I know, it all started because of the really bad behavior of 5 policemen, four of which have yet to be charged in spite of LOTS of video showing that they were supporting the murder of an unarmed, and docile black man. That is a real good reason to march but its not a good reason to, again basically, destroy the safety of major cities of the United States.

I only heard one person, on Sunday politics, even ask; "How could something like this happen?" and that was Donald Jackass Trump! Trump! What the hell? I think we are, right now, experiencing a complete breakdown of our national security. We don't have to fear Russia, or China, or anybody else, we are, led by our ignoramus president, going to do it all on our our with no help from anybody else. To this end we have now have had 3 nights of looting. Anybody who has seen the pictures are, I assume, getting some small humor out of the ongoing description of the problems as a "small group of bad people". There was NOT just a small group of people going in and out of Nordstrom (it was VERY strange. Whilst the store was being robbed Nordstrom had hired carpenters to go in and install plywood over all broken/busted windows. They actually showed this on TV! Oh, and the police were absent, the national guard was absent, the state patrol wasn't there, etc.

So, please don't tell me about these very few bad people. Hell, they said it, right on TV! The police are out manned and outgunned and is getting no help from anybody. There were a few people who tried to stop the looting. They got beat up for their efforts whilst our law enforcers looked on and probably quaking in their collective boots. Again, the FBI, for years has been warning us about White Supremacists and Anarchists (who, incidentally really work well together). Perhaps this might be a sign of something? Remember too, these folks seem to be Trump supporters and there are enough of them to go national given half a chance (which they have proven).

If Trump loses the election, and you wake up, look outside and there are strange men, on every street corner, with rifles looking serious, its gonna be too late to do something about the problem. We got something less than 6 months to fix this mess or wake up to something not real nice. In case I am not clear. I think what is going on is no longer just a little political problem cased by a small group of confused teenagers. It could easily be something entirely different and REALLY bad!


Edited by jgw (05/31/20 09:55 PM)

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#326252 - 05/31/20 10:38 PM Re: Burn and Destroy [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10351
Loc: North San Diego County
Black people have plenty to be outraged about, but I wonder how much of this is actually just anti-mask and anti-public health rules revolt. Everybody is frustrated, and a good chunk of the population has very poor impulse control. Is the average department store looter just somebody who is pissed-of in general and isn't going to take it any more?

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#326272 - 06/01/20 03:07 PM Re: Burn and Destroy [Re: rporter314]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 444


Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
if that were true, there would have been no riots after his arrest
One does not follow the other.

The riots have their own inertia separate from the protests.


That is correct, which, again, suggests that arresting the cop involved would not have stopped the riots, given that (again) we have arrested the cop involved... and it hasn't stopped (or even slowed) the riots.

Quote:
Quote:
I don't think, honestly, that the killing of Floyd is the main driver of the riots, though it is the immediate precipitating event of the protests.
This could be very accurate.

Conservatives have long failed to recognize the underlying problems by either burying their collective heads in the sand or simply denying it exists. Liberals have never found an "easy" fix for the problem, and so fumble from one "solution" to another. When I was young I thought 3 generations would fix it. Man was I ever wrong. I see the fundamental problem as conservatives (and especially Trump supporters) believe there will always be a problem with blacks as long as they do not become white.


a few points where I think we may not be in accord:

1. Painting all Trump supporters with a broad brush that (conveniently) pants your Other as Evil and You as Good generally isn't going to get you results any better than when anyone else does it (for example, a Trump supporter loudly talking about how "The problem with black people is...."). Some Trump supporters are racist, some viciously so. Approximately half of the voting public isn't.

2. Your "Main Problem" is one that conveniently reinforces your Othering of those who aren't like you. They would probably respond that the Main Problem was libtard weenies who refused to take responsibility for any of their actions, or something similarly reinforcing to their own preferred depiction of themselves as morally superior.

3. I don't know if I would say there is a "the problem" here. I think there are problems that interrelate and can overlap, often in ways that are difficult to distinguish.

Cops kill unarmed whites about twice as often as unarmed blacks, and minority Cops are just as likely as white Cops to use lethal force on minority citizenry but, available evidence suggests Police disproportionately use NON-lethal violence against blacks. So racism appears to play a role, but not the controlling one when it comes to violent-and-potentially-deadly interactions between minority communities and law enforcement.

Police officers often avoid accountability for abuses of citizen's rights due to public sector union agreements and the way that qualified immunity is structured, meaning that immediate over-dependence on coercion and force (which may seem efficacious to cops) has no counter incentive militating against it. Our current policing structure encourages police forces to use coercion, bullying, and force more than necessary and more than is wise. In addition to incentivizing regular cops to lean more heavily on coercive tactics, this structure also protects cops who are willful abusers of the citizenry

Police officers (especially in cities) live highly stressful lives, where they are under regular threat of physical harm, and the only people they can really depend upon is each other. This scenario creates intense tribalism and feeds a dark callousness to suffering (which is, to be fair, often a defensive mechanism – our minds will often try to cure horror with humor). I remember in Iraq a car swung around a corner and, ignoring our attempts to wave it off, charged one of our squads, who (in accordance with the ROE’s) proceeded to blast the driver apart. Turned out it was a guy not paying attention because he was yelling at his kids in the back seat. His kids were covered in bits of their dad. How did we deal with that? We made (bad) jokes, our hearts hardened, and we didn’t go insane. A friend of mine had a cop buddy call him the other day – that guy’s day had consisted of taking apart a scene in which a man had killed his daughter, his daughter’s friend, his granddaughter, and finally himself. It turned out the man was also the father of his granddaughter, and had raped all the bodies prior to suicide. That’s a scene and a story that he’s never going to get out of his mind, and, he and his buddies will probably go through a process similar to the one we did.


So, then you get a cop killing a black man by kneeling on his neck. Did he do it because he was racist? Did he do it because that’s how he’s always handled people he was arresting, how he was taught by other street cops, and how “everyone does it” because no one see’s much of a reason not to? Did he stay on the neck because civilians started complaining about it, making it funny, and F’ Them Anyway, because they are the Other? Was it a combination of two or all three or something else?

frown I don’t know. It’s not given to me to see into his heart. But it leads me to suspect strongly that there isn’t A Problem or even a The Problem, and certainly not a The Problem we are likely to change through simple slogans that feed sweeping changes, or the mere passage of time.
_________________________
Winter Is Coming

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#326281 - 06/01/20 05:59 PM Re: Burn and Destroy [Re: CPWILL]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7271
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
arresting the cop involved would not have stopped the riots
Again you gloss over this.

What you have done is assume blacks will riot regardless of what happened. What that means is you believe blacks would have rioted if he gotten a traffic citation i.e. the riots were looking for an excuse. I much rather suspect, had he been detained immediately, it would have deescalated the racist concerns and made it a matter for the judicial system. I rather suspect riots occur when nothing is done in the eyes of the aggrieved.

Quote:
Painting all Trump supporters with a broad brush that (conveniently) pants your Other as Evil and You as Good generally isn't going to get you results any better than when anyone else does it (for example, a Trump supporter loudly talking about how "The problem with black people is...."). Some Trump supporters are racist, some viciously so.

100% of Trump supporters in my neighborhood could easily be members of the KKK. They hate blacks and they hate Democrats because the party tries to do help blacks.

I have to wonder if you believe bigotry is a good thing. I think it is a bad thing, so in that sense yes I am painting myself as something good. So my characterization of Trump supporters as Bad has some validity ... unless you believe otherwise.

The thing about being white. I had never entertained the idea until I heard a rant by Glen Beck on Muslims. He went on for 15 minutes it seemed telling his audience how much he loves Muslims. But what he was saying was he loved them if they were like he was ... a Christian. Then I started hearing the same kind of language from other right wing commentators regarding blacks. So if the people who are molding the thoughts of right wingers are saying it perhaps I should conclude that is what the rank and file also think. Basically that is equivalent to what you typed ... the other. You have conflated two disparate notions i.e. a persons view of race and differences in political belief. The difference between political views is like a difference in which color one likes. The difference between my views on race and a Trump supporters views on race are a direct assault on the fundamental tenets of good and evil. Now if you disagree, please supply me with an argument I can forward to my great grand son for why he should be a bigot.

Quote:
So racism appears to play a role
May I conclude that is an admission of institutionalized racism?

Quote:
but not the controlling one
Unfortunately we do not know why one study would derive that conclusion. You or I could speculate on why and we would probably both be wrong. All I can say is yes that is possible as I could say almost anything is possible.

Quote:
Police officers often avoid accountability for abuses of citizen's rights
Yes. Should the police forces in the South been held accountable during the 50's and 60's there may not have been any police anywhere in the South. Yes

Quote:
a cop killing a black man by kneeling on his neck
I haven't seen the evidence and so have no judgement. The only thing I can type with certainty is the man was in the custody of a PO and died.

Quote:
it leads me to suspect strongly that there isn’t A Problem or even a The Problem,
I guess if you don't believe racism is a problem, then we certainly hold different views of humanity. So I'll ask again, please supply me with an argument (doesn't even have to be convincing) why bigotry and racism is good to tell my grandson and great grandson.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
Get off the crazy train!!! ... dump Trump

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#326286 - 06/01/20 07:30 PM Re: Burn and Destroy [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3604
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Last night we were again treated and honored to be able to watch more stores getting looted. This time in a place called Bellevue which is across a lake from Seattle. Anyway, it was very strange. Both the mayor and the chief of police were giving talks about how well they were doing against a lot of thugs. The problem was that we were being treated to a current video of looters casually walking off with the goods of Macy's whilst the Mayor and Police Chief were claiming victory. After stuff like that one can only wonder if we were getting the TV facts from two realities. The really strange thing is that, apparently, they were talking from approximately 1 block from the looting.

The thing of interest, I thought, was that the Chief of Police had abandoned the "just a small group of bad" to things like; "We had a large group of peaceful marchers, and then several other groups joined up. Then the entire large group began looting right in fron of us. He went on to point out that these looting were well planned and moved around a lot so they were having problems getting to a looting before it had moved on to another location, etc. He also said that they all seemed to be really well trained in what they were doing. He suggested that White Supemacists and Anarchists are into it up to their necks.

I will say it again. It seems that we are husbanding, and training, nationwide, large groups in how to destroy, loot, and burn.

This has now been going on for almost a week yet those who would govern doesn't seem to have a clue.

Kinda scary - we might go out and buy a few guns........... (I was told by somebody I know who sells them that he is VERY busy!)


Edited by jgw (06/01/20 09:55 PM)

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