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#326439 - 06/08/20 10:23 PM How Much Money Police Waste
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Port Angeles, WA


Edited by jgw (06/08/20 10:29 PM)

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#326489 - 06/10/20 06:01 PM Re: How Much Money Police Waste [Re: jgw]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423


Fascinating. When you put that next to the massive growth in per-student expenditures that haven't produced improved student performance, it almost leads one to suspect that areas of government dominated by public sector unions are unlikely to be efficient spenders of the public's money.
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#326499 - 06/10/20 07:37 PM Re: How Much Money Police Waste [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Education - interesting subject.

My understanding goes like. In Europe, for the most part, schools are more like our charter schools and parents can choose depending on who teaches what how. I have been told that schools get reputations as to how well they do. Schools with bad reputations go away. The state makes sure schools are doing what they are supposed to be do and have set standards.

In the United States we have public schools and charter schools. The problem, as far as I can tell, about charter schools, is that the states sometimes do a terrible job regulating them and the students are the ones getting hurt. I remember one charger school, which was supported, and owned, by the teacher's union - it failed.

The schools in the rest of the world seem to all do better than those in the United States - have no idea why. That being said, I travel a bit. I was in Vietnam and met a young girl who was a waitress where we were having dinner and she explained how her high school worked. She said that she started school around 8:00am and was in school (getting educated) until noon. Then they had an hour off for lunch and then returned to the school. This time to do their 'homework'. That lasted until 4:00pm. Homework, for the most part was taught by upper class students (except for senior who got teachers). If a lower class student didn't pass then the upper class students who were in charge of homework also didn't pass (upper classes were responsible to make sure lower classes got it). The schools in Vietnam are considered to have a very good product.

Oh, the girl also told us that their homework was so structured because most of the kids had jobs at night. I also suspect there is a lot about such a school system that makes me admire it.



I am not for, or against, just saying...................

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#326502 - 06/11/20 01:47 AM Re: How Much Money Police Waste [Re: CPWILL]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17034
Loc: Florida
Quote:
government dominated by public sector unions are unlikely to be efficient spenders of the public's money.


Wherever unions "dominate" they twist the system to suit the needs of members but non members get left out in the cold. Just another division.

Workers shouldn't have to beg for a living wage, a safe workplace, insurance and education. Government should simply legislate such.
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#326516 - 06/11/20 03:04 PM Re: How Much Money Police Waste [Re: CPWILL]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: CPWILL


Fascinating. When you put that next to the massive growth in per-student expenditures that haven't produced improved student performance, it almost leads one to suspect that areas of government dominated by public sector unions are unlikely to be efficient spenders of the public's money.


Leaving aside billions spent on standardized tests, I'd like to see some of this "massive growth in expenditures".
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#326531 - 06/11/20 05:36 PM Re: How Much Money Police Waste [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
You are right. However, Police Unions are another thing entirely. They have contracts that allow them to set murderers free, hold off accusations of just about anything for years, tell the union members what to do or lose their protection and give police a free pass and act without fear of consequences.

Government and their unions is interesting. Years ago gov decided to deal with union by creating the Civil Service. Civil Service is everyplace there are government union members and was supposed to replace those unions. Instead what has happened is that, between the Unions and the Civil Service its really VERY hard to just fire a civil servant. Every now and then there is a politician that wants to just get rid of the Civil Service as the unions are performing the same things. When that happens the unions get all upset - they like the Civil Service as it seems to help them deal with gov.


Edited by jgw (06/11/20 06:03 PM)

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#326536 - 06/11/20 06:09 PM Re: How Much Money Police Waste [Re: jgw]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423
Originally Posted By: jgw
You are right. However, Police Unions are another thing entirely. They have contracts that allow them to set murderers free, hold off accusations of just about anything for years, tell the union members what to do or lose their protection and give police a free pass and act without fear of consequences.

Government and their unions is interesting. Years ago gov decided to deal with union by creating the Civil Service. Civil Service is everyplace there are government union members and was supposed to replace those unions. Instead what has happened is that, between the Unions and the Civil Service its really VERY hard to just fire a civil servant. Every now and then there is a politician that wants to just get rid of the Civil Service as the unions are performing the same things. When that happens the unions get all upset - they like the Civil Service as it seems to help them deal with gov.


Where I work we had a guy (government employee) who had so many DUI's, he wasn't even allowed to come to work or to access work. It took them two years to jump through all the hoops necessary to get him fired (all the while he's earning six figures basically for hanging out at home), and, right before they did so, he retired with full benefits. And that guy wasn't even union.


A guy who was union was Philip Brailsford, the Las Vegas cop who shot a sobbing man who was attempting to comply with Brailsford's conflicting directions. Brailsford was re-hired so that he could claim medical retirement from the trauma associated with shooting an innocent man, and now has a tax-free pension for the rest of his life.

From Rubber Rooms to Child Abuse to murder - our public servants are able to abuse the Public they supposedly serve... because their unions are powerful enough to keep them from facing the due consequences of their actions. This should end.


Edited by CPWILL (06/11/20 06:10 PM)
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#326544 - 06/11/20 09:31 PM Re: How Much Money Police Waste [Re: Hamish Howl]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 423
Originally Posted By: Hamish Howl
Originally Posted By: CPWILL

Fascinating. When you put that next to the massive growth in per-student expenditures that haven't produced improved student performance, it almost leads one to suspect that areas of government dominated by public sector unions are unlikely to be efficient spenders of the public's money.

Leaving aside billions spent on standardized tests, I'd like to see some of this "massive growth in expenditures".

Images don't transfer over well, but:

U.S. Education Spending History from 1900

In 2014 the U.S. spent an average of $16,268 per pupil, and, though that number differs a bit depending on how you count, it is well above the OECD average.

  • Many people believe that lack of funding is a problem in public education, but historical trends show that American spending on public education is at an all-time high. Between 1994 and 2004, average per-pupil expenditures in American public schools have increased by 23.5 percent (adjusted for inflation). Between 1984 and 2004, real expenditures per pupil increased by 49 percent. These increases follow the historical trend of ever-increasing real per-student expenditures in the nation's public schools. In fact, the per-pupil expenditures in 1970-1971 ($4,060) were less than half of per-pupil expenditures in 2005-2006 ($9,266) after adjusting for inflation....


  • Over the past half-century, America’s per-pupil spending on K–12 education has nearly tripled, and, despite a dip from decreased tax revenues during the Great Recession, it now stands at an all-time high in most states. The U.S. spends more money per pupil on primary and secondary schools than any other major developed nation, and American teachers earn substantially more than their peers in the private sector. Although local school spending relies heavily on property-tax revenue, state and federal spending ensure that a state’s per-pupil spending is comparable across race and socioeconomic status. Spending varies widely between states, but that variation shows little correlation with academic achievement...



Public monopolies (which is most government institutions) don't have to care about the quality of their product or service - their "customer" is (generally) stuck, and, when the rules regarding the workforce are put into place with public sector unions, the providers are also immune to consequences for anything except the most vile and grossest abuses. Much of that expanded spending went into hiring more teachers relative to the number of students – but the numbers of administrators expanded even faster (and, given that most school systems have agreements in place where no administrator can make less than the teachers, they quickly take up payroll).

  • From 1970 to 2010, student enrollment increased by a modest 7.8 percent, while the number of public-school teachers increased by 60 percent. During the same time, non-teaching staff positions increased by 138 percent, and total staffing grew by 84 percent. Teachers now comprise just half of all public-education employees….


“Just Spend More On Education” isn’t going to work, and it definitely wont’ work until we reform that system, making both school systems and individuals within them accountable for their results, and subject them to actual pressure to perform. Otherwise, any increased expenditures will just be captured by increased administration, vice helping the students, and we will continue to enable cycles of poverty by trapping the children of the poor in failing schools that train them to be and remain impoverished. frown


Edited by CPWILL (06/11/20 09:32 PM)
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#326570 - 06/12/20 03:47 PM Re: How Much Money Police Waste [Re: jgw]
Hamish Howl Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/21/19
Posts: 608
Loc: Tucson, AZ
From your link:

Quote:
The solution is clear, he says. “We have to have more highly educated teachers and we need to pay them more,” he said.


So, yeah, about that.

Also, my question was how much of the increase was directly or indirectly caused by the parasitic "standardized tests"?
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#326576 - 06/12/20 08:02 PM Re: How Much Money Police Waste [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Those sorts of stories, about civil servants, just not cops are rather common. Here is one. I live in Washington state. The state highway department tried to fire a state highway worker. first, the union, agreed. The worker then petitioned the Civil Service and got his job back. Then they fired him again and, this time, he got the Union to sue the state for his job. The state, after that, just gave up. He spent the next 10 years being hired by the state but never did a lick's of work. This was famous up here for what can happen. There was also a man who ran a small Museum at the Bremerton Shipyards. The navy was short of money and shut it down. The man then sued the Navy for firing him. He fought that war for over 5 years and then got a ruling which said he could now be fired but the navy had to pay him back pay from when they first tried to fire him to when he could be fired. These are just two of a plethora of such stories. These particular two I researched to see if they were right or not - they were.

The thing is that if you work for the feds you have serious rights which are watched over by not on the Unions but the Civil Service. Then you have the police. That is an entirely different can of worms. They can actually murder somebody and skate! Up to now they often are never even investigated or charged - they just get to murder somebody and then ignore it all just like the bosses. From what I can tell this is because the police have unions which, again evidently, get to determine just how police are handled and dealth with, or not.

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