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#326838 - 06/21/20 05:10 PM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17271
Loc: Florida
Once again we roll around to the topic of capitalism and its devastating impact on humanity.

Never in the history of man have so many had so much.

And never in the history of man have so many had so little.

And never have all those who have so much cared less for those who have little.
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#326841 - 06/21/20 05:57 PM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: Ken Condon]
pdx rick Offline
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CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43272
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon

Libertarians are good with the effects of capitalism. Hmm
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#326853 - 06/21/20 07:47 PM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 435
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Is there an ethical component to your Capitalist ideology?


Indeed.

There are, generally speaking, two modern ways to organize the economics of a society in such a way as to attempt to influence people to serve and look out for the interests of others:

1. You can try to mandate it through coercion and violence. Socialism invested a lot of effort in this, punishing economic traitors, imposing work and production mandates with penalties for failure against individuals, facilities, and sectors. This approach works to an extent, and, you can achieve amazing progress sometimes with the right amount of terror and violence. Keeping that hyped up generally isn't sustainable, however, and, the model suffers in the long run as each individual contributes only the minimum necessary to avoid punishment.

or

2. You can link the well-being and interests of others to the well-being and interests of the individual. This is Capitalism's position and, in capitalism, the system rewards you to the extent that you serve others. As individuals can generally be relied upon to seek their own interests, this alignment means that they seek others well-being and interests in order to achieve their own. Because each individual and group of individuals is constantly seeking to serve others better for their own self-interest, you get constant innovation and growth in our ability to serve others (which means corresponding sustained economic growth and exponentially improving wealth and living conditions).


I think option 2 is by far morally superior. You don't need Gulags, you don't need to liquidate the Kulaks as a class, and you don't need to attempt to impose terror across an entire population in order to get them to work to other's benefit. Instead, they do it themselves of their own volition, they do it to the extent and in the manner that they wish to, and they do so more and better.

Capitalism's ethical component comes from the fact that it represents the decision to give over the decision to take, the decision to serve over the decision to terrorize, and the ability to produce sustainable growth in living conditions over the inability to do so.
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#326855 - 06/21/20 09:11 PM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43272
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

1. You can try to mandate it through coercion and violence. Capitalism invested a lot of effort in this, white-skinned humans punishing black humans for not producing enough or demanding their freedom. This approach works to an extent, and, you can achieve amazing progress sometimes with the right amount of terror and violence. Keeping that hyped up generally isn't sustainable, however, and, the model suffers in the long run as free individuals let up on the necks of those producing only the minimum necessary to avoid punishment.

There I fixed the paragraph for you. smile

Capitalism's unethical component comes from the fact that it represents the decision to greedily take more than it gives in penance to its worker, and to keep the inability to produce sustainable wage growth for living conditions over the long-run.

Fixed that paragraph too.

You...are...welcome. smile
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#326858 - 06/21/20 11:22 PM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10328
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
There are, generally speaking, two modern ways to organize the economics of a society in such a way as to attempt to influence people to serve and look out for the interests of others:

You presented a couple of possible theories of organization, but I don't think Capitalism is organized in any way in reality. I don't even think that any rational form of Capitalism is dominant in our chaotic economic system. And I really don't see that any form of ethical bounds are in play. Free will, choice, etc., are the property of them with the capital. That's how it's currently "organized".
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326859 - 06/21/20 11:23 PM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43272
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Another example of the immortality of capitalism: Wage theft through misclassifying employees as independent contractors and denying workers the overtime pay they are due.

Shall I post more examples? smile
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#326863 - 06/22/20 12:56 AM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10328
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I am coming to think that most peoples' concept of what defines Capitalism is, "Anything that makes money".

That's not much to work with. After all, money is just a tool for facilitating complex exchanges of goods and services between humans. Barter is also an excellent tool for that, but its usefulness is limited to more or less direct trades, and it's hard to tax.

What it isn't, is an economic system.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#326866 - 06/22/20 04:53 PM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: logtroll]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17271
Loc: Florida
Good grief.

Capitalism is when everything is privately owned.

Socialism is where everything is owned collectively by those same private individuals and controlled by their duly elected representatives.

Neither capitalism nor socialism "does" anything.
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#326874 - 06/22/20 06:39 PM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3595
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Well, not exactly. Most of the time they tend to work together to produce what we actually are fairly happy with. The problem always boils down to one side going a bit too far. The disaster is when both sides go to far.

With both sides working together the product is something both sides can work and live with. Sometimes with enthusiasm. I believe that this is what the founders wanted. The trick is to elect those that can do that. The problem that many of those stand for election are lying.

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#326875 - 06/22/20 06:49 PM Re: What is the purpose of Capitalism? [Re: jgw]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17271
Loc: Florida
Quote:
A few days ago, temperatures within the Arctic Circle topped 100 degrees, shattering records. With so many unprecedented crises facing this nation and the world, we must never lose sight of the biggest existential threat facing the planet: climate change.Bernie Sanders


So show me where runaway socialism has created this.


I think it's runaway capitalism.
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