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#327700 - 07/31/20 03:49 AM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7275
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
But for months, the MATH+ protocol was getting MUCH better results
So ... you are saying he is stupid.

So with 40 years of experience as a leading epidemiologist Dr Fauci should be able to read a clinical study and understand what it says and does not say. Now with that in mind, he would also know if there is anything which should be considered when designing a study he should make those recommendations i.e. early use etc.

My take is he does not see that any constraint you have in mind would make a difference based on current results, ergo he must be stupid. But then so is Dr Birx and Dr Redfield ... as well as WHO. I can only conclude all of these folks are either stupid (because they have not considered anecdotal evidence as relevant) or they are all bought off by Big Pharma.
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#327705 - 07/31/20 04:38 AM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10355
Loc: North San Diego County
Well, we know WHO is run by politicians. I'm not saying they are stupid, but they did cancel all their hydroxychloroquine trials because of the very dubious Lancet paper that was retracted a few days later for using fake data. Maybe these other doctors have seen some study data I haven't seen. They are certainly way more qualified than me. All I'm saying is I can read journal and preprint papers and understand them, I know basic statistics, and I have a pretty good grasp of the situation. And I have not seen proof.

But there are a huge number of ongoing trials. Sooner or later one of those will give us a definite answer. But hydroxychloroquine is such a politicized topic, I bet it doesn't happen until after the election.

It may be moot anyway: Quercetin plus zinc may be just as effective, and quercetin is an over-the-counter food supplement. Seems HCQ takes a few days to become available after you start taking it, so you might miss the time window in which it did some good. Quercetin has no dangerous side effects. I've been taking it every day for months now.

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#327709 - 07/31/20 04:59 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3605
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
This morning I heard that there is evidence that some have a built in immunity to Covid-19 that is related to T-cells. Apparently this is known but not tested for so nobody really knows how many have this immunity.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/30/health/t-cells-coronavirus-study-wellness/index.html
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-immunity

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#327715 - 07/31/20 07:47 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10355
Loc: North San Diego County
As I hypothesized months ago, the researchers who looked at T-cell activation thought it was from previous exposure to one or more of those other four corona viruses that circulate around the world as common colds. They don't have the SARS-COV2 spike protein, but they do have other antigens very similar or identical to SARS-COV2 antigens. The reason I hypothesized that is because early antibody test makers warned users a positive test could mean they had been exposed to antigens on one of the other four corona viruses. There is no reason to assume somebody could react to those antigens and NOT have some immunity to SARS-COV2.

So that means all the so-called "false positive" antibody tests are not really false. They do mean you have some immunity. They just don't tell you it was SARS-COV2.

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#327729 - 08/01/20 06:46 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3605
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I suspect, when this is over, that we will know a lot more about this stuff than we thought we knew before it. So, all in all, if we survive, there will have been a lot of contributions to it all. The trick is in the surviving, I think.

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#327759 - 08/02/20 06:30 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3605
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have been thinking about this. Why is the work of Harvey A. Risch, MD, PhD simply being ignored. He explained, for instance, why the tests didn't work - they didn't understand how to do it right! (at least that's what I got from the article).

So, does this mean that the anti-Trumps are so dedicated that they would simply ignore the drug because Trump likes it? If that is true then the left should examine the old phrase that goes something like; "cutting of your nose to spite your face".

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#327786 - 08/03/20 09:45 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10355
Loc: North San Diego County
I'm not sure anybody's work is being ignored, so much as just being swamped by so much information on the internet. The gold standard of medical knowledge is the random double-blind trial peer-reviewed and then published in a major scientific journal. That all takes about as long as we have even known about the virus, much less how long it has actually been here in the US as a pandemic.

Considering the urgency, good and bad information is being published on pre-print servers, the internet, the TV and cable news, tweets, facebook, etc. Usually with no peer review, and often it's just hypothesis or based on in vitro experiments.

FDA has had a "compassionate use" program that permits the use of experimental unproven drugs for dying patients for years. They did authorize use for drugs like remdesivir and HCQ, but until a couple of months in nobody realized that giving antivirals to dying patients is useless. This is because nobody recognized that Covid-19 is actually two different diseases: The viral infection, and then the sometimes lethal autoimmune response to it.

So those early trials were designed around that compassionate-use idea that giving antiviral drugs to dying patients was reasonable. When they were done, they gave proof that the drug did not work! Because of the inherent selection bias of candidates who were sickest for the trials, it looked like HCQ was actually doing harm. Now we know that the autoimmune clots do the harm by blocking coronary arteries.

The trial process is like a supertanker: Huge momentum. It takes a lot of time and energy to get one going and they can't turn quickly.

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#327801 - 08/04/20 07:33 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17282
Loc: Florida
Right now, isolation is the best medicine.

There's enough evidence that vitamin D and zinc might favorably affect the outcome. Blood thinners might help too.

But you need to be taking them before you catch the virus.
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#327813 - 08/05/20 12:32 AM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10355
Loc: North San Diego County
If you have no medical reason for blood thinners, it's better not to take them. Or maybe just one baby aspirin per day. You only need them (badly) if you get Covid-19 and then go into cytokine storm.

Vitamin D, quercetin, and zinc I would recommend highly for everybody every day. Even if you don't catch Covid-19, those are going to help against the flu and colds. Oh and the Vitamin D is good for little stuff like cancer, heart attacks, autoimmune diseases, etc.

You are absolutely right about isolation: Even young asymptomatic cases can get permanent lung damage.

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#327825 - 08/05/20 06:40 PM Re: Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2 [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17282
Loc: Florida
I have a medical reason for taking the blood thinners, I use Xarelto for DVT and have been hospitalized with pulmonary embolisms.
if I catch the 'rona it could help prevent the cytokine storm.

Damage to the lungs of those young asymptomatic victims is likely also caused by clotting destroying some of the lung tissue...I have no idea, but we are aware that clotting is one of the dangerous symptoms.

As for Vitamin D, quercetin, and zinc I get plenty in my diet. Coffee alone provides sufficient quercetin but I also eat plenty of other foods which contain it. Since I'm a meat eater I get abundant zinc as well.

But I'm no fool. So I went looking for a supplement with vitamin D and zinc. I found an osteo care product with calcium magnesium zinc and vitamin D. No megadoses of any of them, which is a thing about supplements that touches a nerve with me.

It turns out that when I fell last October, I fractured two vertebrae and should probably be taking an osteo care supplement anyway. L1 and L2 are somewhat wedge shaped now with no disc between them to speak of and my life will never be quite the same...but tomorrow is never the same as yesterday anyway and today is a pretty good day.
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