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#328813 - 09/16/20 12:10 PM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
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CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43449
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Has Boy Blunder Jared Kushner brought world peace to the Pepsi/Coke cola wars yet? coffee
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#328834 - 09/17/20 04:20 AM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43449
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Herd mentality...herd immunity. Six of one, half a dozen of another to the a stellar thinker like dumbass Trump.

smile
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#328836 - 09/17/20 05:52 PM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
As someone who has never belonged to, affiliated, identified with either major party, the term herd mentality seems to apply to both.

But if one thinks about it, those of like mind, ideology, political philosophy seem to bind together. I think history shows this when 90% of those who identify themselves as either Republican and or Democrat, on average votes for their candidates regardless of who their candidates are.

In 2016 89% of Democrats voted for Hillary, 88% for Trump. Was their vote based on either one making the ideal president, really liking and wanting either one to win? Or could it be just wanting the other to lose? If the polls were right, only 55% of Democrats really liked and wanted Hillary, 47% of Republicans felt the same about Trump.

Now the numbers go way up when we get to those voting against. 87% of Democrats definitely didn't want Trump to win, 88% of republicans were totally against Hillary. What we had is 41% of Republican voting for Trump, not that they were for him, they were against Hillary. 34% of Democrats voted for Hillary, not that they wanted her, they didn't want Trump more. Hence what I call 2016 the anti election. This isn't even counting independents, just the party faithful. Independents is harder to come up with figures like the above since we had 54% of all independents disliking both and not wanting either major candidate to become their next president.

So for someone like me being a free agent all his life, the term herd mentality applies to both party's faithful. Hence, our view of the political world can be entirely different on some things and identical on others. We all seem to agree here, that Trump must go. If Biden wins, I'd like to say when, but this far out, if is the word that applies. If he wins, I think you'll see more of the different political views from me than you have so far. I don't automatically back any president in everything he tries to do or oppose any president in everything he tries to do. I pick and choose my opposition to and my support for based on what the issue is.
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#328841 - 09/17/20 08:05 PM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10476
Loc: North San Diego County
I'm not a member of the Democratic Party, though I do usually vote for them. But I was totally against the Vietnam war when both Democrats and Republicans were pursuing it. I would vote for a Republican if they had a platform I could support. They just never seem to do that.

I'm actually in the Republican demographic: White, old, well-off. I've just hated bullies and exclusion all my life.

Integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is watching. -- CS Lewis

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#328842 - 09/17/20 08:05 PM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43449
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Why would any decent person choose to associate with people who categorize humans in a hierarchical social order? Rightwingers are famous for doing so...looking down at others as if the others are socially inferior. Rightwingers seethe with anger when they see someone from outside of their social group benefiting and the Rightwinger is not.

Those like Megan McCain who claim the "both sides" argument are being intellectually lazy and dishonest. The both sides argument, from my observation, seem to originate from the right side of the political spectrum. Just sayin'. Hmm
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#328845 - 09/17/20 09:07 PM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: pondering_it_all]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
I served in Vietnam and in Laos. I was all for the war while there, as I believed we were fighting to win. That turned out not to be the case. Unlike WWII, we didn't have the will to win that war. Nonetheless, my perspective on Vietnam today is that it was a battle in the cold war. A battle we lost in the larger cold war which we won. I don't think without fighting it we could have won the cold war the way and when we did. But everyone has their own perspectives about that.

What Vietnam taught me is that the U.S. should never get into a war that it isn't willing to do what it takes to win.

As for Trump, you know my feelings on him. He has to go. He reminds me of a third grade schoolyard bully. With his name calling and throwing of temper tantrums, a four year old spoiled brat who's parents forgot to teach him any manners. I could throw a thousand other adjectives in front of his name, but you guys do a good job on that.

I am glad and extremely happy to see the U.S. and Vietnam as good friends and cooperating militarily in Southeast Asia.
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It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#328846 - 09/17/20 11:28 PM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10476
Loc: North San Diego County
I think it was actually an impossible war to win. You would have to have killed a lot of the Vietnamese, and the more you killed, the more would have been recruited. It's pretty telling that a few years after leaving, Vietnam became a popular tourist destination and not a gigantic gulag filled with miserable starving prisoners. The only thing that was wrong with the country was that the French and then the US were there tearing the place up and killing people.

And I really doubt that fight had anything to do with the Cold War ending. Russia just was not that involved. The Chinese were, but promptly decided they wanted our markets and bonds a lot more than our defeat in the political struggle. The Cold War ended because of money, not fighting.

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#328847 - 09/18/20 12:41 AM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Each to his own, but winning that war could have been accomplished by cutting the Ho Chi Minh trail. I think everyone knew that. But for political reasons, it was never done. That's a long story, way too long for here and it had everything to do with the 1961 Geneva Accords.

I forget the exact numbers, but after the war, 3 million Cambodians were killed or died at the hands of or because of Pol Pot. DOD puts the estimates at 1.5 million South Vietnamese killed and who knows how many into reeducation camps. Laos got off light, only 150,000. But that was 150,000 out of a country of 3 million. 7 million in Cambodia.

This is totally forgotten. The after effects. Now I came to applaud the NVA for their intervention in Cambodia in 1978 putting an end to the Killing Field. Then Carter because of the Vietnamese invasion began backing and supplying the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot. That was an awakening moment.

It was in 1995 when Bill Clinton normalized relation with Vietnam and then the tourism began. That war is over and I have many Vietnamese friends, mostly ex-military. Strange as it seems and probably impossible for a civilian to understand, we may have tried to kill each other during the war, but now would do anything for each other. Go figure.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#328848 - 09/18/20 01:53 AM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: Greger]
Ujest Shurly Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 673
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
The Vietnam War started in 1918 at Versailles France, when Ho Chi Min tried to get help from President Woodrow Wilson to get the French out. Vietnam did not have to happen (First episode of Ken Burns' The Vietnam War).

Vietnam has a thousand years of history of fighting each other and China, then the Colonial powers came in. The Vietnamese history tells anybody that cared to dig into it, that the Vietnamese will fight as long as it takes. The Ho Chi Min Trail was bombed to ruin, and every time they repaired it in a matter of days. After all it was just dirt trails. They had maintenance battalions stationed all along the trail in Laos and Cambodia. The North Vietnamese had a smarter logistics system.

Could we have won that police action? Yes, if our government, beginning with Eisenhower, would have just not shackled us and not supported a puppet (Diem)

A little history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vietnam

first Vietnamese states approximately 2879 BC.

1000 year of occupation by the Chinese. Last thousand years of Vietnamese history was wars (civil and foreign occupation).

Personal philosophical opinion: If you do not learn your enemy's history and culture you will lose the fight. That is why our troubles with China worry me. They think in generations and centuries. We're lucky if we can think through tomorrow.
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#328851 - 09/18/20 12:30 PM Re: RoundTable for Summer 2020 [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Yeah, I tend to agree with all of that. Time had a different meaning for the Vietnamese than us. We didn't know our enemy.
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It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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