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#328859 - 09/18/20 07:06 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Originally Posted By: Greger
LOL...You're more conservative than me, Pero, but I don't think I'd call you a "righty".

Near as I can tell Rick isn't even a "lefty". He's a liberal who trends progressive. You, Pero, I'd judge to be a moderate who trends liberal.



Yeah, that's why I got a big kick out of that. There's no doubt I'm left on most social issues. I used to call myself a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. But the GOP isn't fiscal conservative anymore, other than rhetoric which is meaningless. Their actions are the same as the Democrats, only the Democrats are honest about it. I suppose I would classify it as Republicans, low taxes and spend, spend, spend. Democrats raise taxes and spend, spend, spend.

So I'm slowly moving over toward the Democratic side on fiscal policy. I was one who adamantly opposed Trump's tax cuts. But for me, being fiscally responsible is not spending more than you take in. But since the Democrats comes the closest to that, I'll side with them on most fiscal issues also. I'm all for Biden's proposed tax increase.

I think one of the big differences between us is I like to go slow, trying to keep as many people in their comfort zone as possible. You seem to like gigantic leaps which throws a lot of folks out of their comfort zone and in the next election, you pay the price by losing it.

Since I'm also involved in election forecasts, I tend to look at things, issues, more as a political strategist than any normal person would. Slow and steady was pretty much the Democratic Party's mantra between 1955-1994 when they controlled the house for 40 straight years. Even in 1964, civil rights bill and the 1965 voting rights act, the Democrats had a 115 seat majority and could afford to lose 50 seats, which they did and still have a 65 seat majority.

Let's say a time for everything.
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It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#328863 - 09/18/20 08:40 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17390
Loc: Florida
I dunno about giant leaps...I'm generally happy to see any progress at all. The only movement I've seen for many years has been backwards.

My ultimate goals are giant leaps from where we are today...but I'd settle for a few small steps forward.

Living wage.

Education.

Healthcare.
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#328867 - 09/18/20 09:36 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
I have no problem with that. Using the ACA as an example, it took way too many people out of their comfort zone and hence a red wave occurred in 2010 to the tune of 63 seats lost. I think if Obama and the Democrats took more time to explain instead of just jumping in, it would have went smoother with lot less loses. Or did some this year, some next year, a little more the year after etc. without losing the house.

But that's the political strategist talking here. When you look at, on average a 55-40 opposition to it, perhaps it was the wrong time. Who knows what other issues could have been tackled successfully with a little at a time approach or putting the ACA on the back burner for a year or two. Immigration, infrastructure, your living wage, education, all could have been addressed with the democrats in firm control of the house and the senate.

The way things are these days, in the era of polarization and mega, ultra high partisanship, all it takes is the lost of the House or the senate to put a stop to any forward movement. With the ACA it was a one and done for Obama. That is outside of what he could do with his phone and a pen.

Of course I have an entirely different outlook on these things than most and perhaps everyone else. Was the ACA worth it with everything else put on hold and or not addressed at all. I think most Democrats would answer that in the affirmative, not me though. I look on it as a 2 year gain, then a 6 year loss of opportunity. A six year loss of high hopes because the Republican House was going to stop everything Obama tried to do.

Take folks out of their comfort zone, that makes them angry and they rebel. I just hope Biden and company learned this lesson from 2010. If not, we'll see a Republican House in 2022. Again, that the strategist inside me speaking. Give the people what they want in the amount they want I suppose is the bottom line.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#328870 - 09/18/20 10:34 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17390
Loc: Florida
Republicans never seem to take people out of their comfort zone....

No matter how many die, or how many go hungry, or how many are denied the basic dignities of life. If Democrats attempt to do anything at all for the good of the nation and the people it will be deemed to radical and will take too many people out of their comfort zone.

Honestly...The clown show that has been the Trump administration has not taken enough people out of their comfort zone to make this race close enough to call? But if you offer them affordable healthcare they freak out and elect Republicans who don't want you to have it.

That right there is sad.
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#328876 - 09/19/20 02:33 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10477
Loc: North San Diego County
Republicans did not respond to ACA by denying Obama everything, good for the country or not. They announced that total partisan opposition on Day 1. They used ACA to raise the stink and get the voters riled up about Obama. If he hadn't signed ACA, it just would have been something else. After all, ACA was almost identical to RomneyCare but with a smaller non-participation tax. I think the Democrats biggest mistake was not calling it RomneyCare right up front. Republicans invented the label "ObamaCare" in an attempt to make it a partisan issue, even though they wrote a lot of the bill.

Funny, Romney participated a lot more in the creation of RomneyCare, and there was very little backlash at all.

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#328877 - 09/19/20 03:03 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7342
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Republicans invented the label "ObamaCare" in an attempt to make it a partisan issue, even though they wrote a lot of the bill.

They could have called it "HusseinCare" to really PO the ignorant
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#328881 - 09/19/20 11:36 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
I think the main point or my main point is in order to accomplish something one first must win an election. To keep accomplishing things, one must then win reelection or control of the House and senate.

I think one of the Democrats fault was they pushed things that a majority of Americans weren't ready for yet. Either that went went too far, beyond what the people were ready to accept and support at the time and things like 1994 and 2010 happen.

Of course that is their decision. I am pretty sure the Democrats in congress never thought when they passed the ACA it would be a one and done for them even though they knew a good size majority of Americans were against it. That they would immediately lose control of the House and lose 8 senate seats immediately following its passage.

That stopped progress on every other issue in its tracks. sometimes it may be wise to listen to the American people. That is if you want to make progress on other issues and not only one.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#328882 - 09/19/20 11:45 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: pondering_it_all]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Republicans did not respond to ACA by denying Obama everything, good for the country or not.

Funny, Romney participated a lot more in the creation of RomneyCare, and there was very little backlash at all.


Only political junkies knew anything at all about RomneyCare in Massachusetts since it didn't have any effect at all on the other 49 states. It was totally irrelevant to those living in all other states than Massachusetts. Obamacare effected all 50. Huge difference.

Your average American Joe knew nothing about Romneycare and if they did, they could care less because it had no effect on them. I would wager 90% of all Americans at the time didn't even know what it was outside of Massachusetts. Those that did were the highly political active and very heavily in politics and campaigns.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#328883 - 09/19/20 01:13 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos


'Wait, our state has mail voting. The forms are literally on the kitchen table.' 'Not now, I'm busy researching which channels have sharks in them.'
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#328893 - 09/19/20 06:21 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17390
Loc: Florida
Maybe it wasn't about Obamacare at all.

Maybe it was entirely a racist reaction.

The same racist reaction that might put Trump back in the WH for another term.
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