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#328985 - 09/22/20 10:52 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: rporter314]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: rporter314
So let's ask a group of colored folks whether systemic racism exists. The answer is yes. Let's ask a group of conservatives if systemic racism exists and the answer is no. Democrats want to try to "fix" the problem. So where is the middle ground with which conservatives can compromise? If they think there is no problem, there is no middle ground.

This is an example of actual differences between the parties and the result of extremism on the right. But I ask, could you provide examples of where liberals are not willing to compromise?


I think there is more room for overlap and agreement than is generally understood. Combative, accusatory rhetoric promotes defensiveness and tribalism, however, and covers it up.
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#328986 - 09/22/20 10:57 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: perotista
It seems both sides are asking for it, wanting it, neither side willing to step back a bit. All we get is tit for tat escalation until there will be a point where compromise and stopping at the brink isn't an option.

I agree that "both sides" are involved in the downward spiral, but I do not agree with the idea that responsibility is divided equally. Speaking for myself personally, I have long felt the sucking pull of the right to descend into the mud pit. I want to "stay high when they go low", but the "other side" has no rules, ethics, or honesty. Without rules there is no game, only chaos.


Interestingly, the right tends to think the exact same thing about the left that you, here, are ascribing to them. It is, in fact, not a small part of why many folks in 2015 and 2016 supported Trump. I lost count of how many times I had explained to me that we had tried the nice and kind and professional and statesmanlike route with Romney, and they'd run around accusing him of vicious racism, of wanting to put black people back in chains, and all kinds of deliberate lies and smears (remember Harry Reid smugly responding to the point that he had lied about Romney's taxes with "well, we won, didn't we?"), so, F It, If They Won't Obey The Rules, Then Neither Will We. "You're Gonna Hate The New Rules" is a common rightwing tag when it comes to applying what they see as the "Lefts" tactics to leftists.

Both sides tend to minimize or pass over their own abuses, and focus on those of the other, resulting in wildly skewed impressions of relative responsibility and levels of civility.


Quote:
My signature line used to be "You can't solve a problem until you understand what the problem is". I don't think that the problem sources from "both sides do it and must compromise". What if one side takes that as a sign of weakness and doubles down (think of the ACA).


Oh, the problem is the American people. We suck at this, and are easily led by loud and boistrous idiots who promise us that Our Tribe Is The Goodies But Their Tribe Is The Baddies.
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#328987 - 09/22/20 11:00 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: perotista]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
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Originally Posted By: perotista
Perhaps this modern era of polarization and ultra high partisanship began in 1994 while Lott and Daschle were still the leaders in the senate. A bunch of new, young, Republican turks were elected in what some call the Gingrich revolution. A revolution it was as the Democrats had controlled the house for 40 straight years. These young, Republican turks were much more ideological. They replaced a bunch of more moderate Democrats. The GOP gained 54 seats that year angry at Bill Clinton and company over the tax increased, especially raising federal income tax on social security, Hillary's failed healthcare along with some more.

I think the big blow came with Dennis Hastert when he instituted the Hastert rule. Before that the minority party could introduce their legislation on the house floor, get enough of the majority party to go along with it and have it passed even if less than half of the majority party, the Republicans in this case opposed it. The Hastert rule basically stated no Democratic legislation would be introduced for a vote on the house floor unless a majority of Republicans went along with it. Follow this up with the impeachment of Bill Clinton, that is the beginning in my opinion.

Elections do have consequences. You had most Democrats opposing close to everything Bush did. Then the election of 2006 when 33 young, ideological bent Democrats replaced what was left of the moderate, willing to work across the aisle Republicans in that blue wave election. Follow up 2006 with 2010 when 54 of the 63 seats the Democrats lost in 2010 were moderate blue dog Democrats replaced with the more ideological young Republican turks.

Now you have basically nothing but ideologues in both chambers. Reid and McConnell replaced Lott and Daschle. Lott and Daschle respected each other and were more than willing to work things out, work together to solve problems, compromise with each other. Not Reid and McConnell. Both were what I call party firsters. Hence Reid's first use of the nuclear option, something neither Lott and Daschle, Mitchell and Dole, Baker and Byrd would have even dreamed about, let alone use.

Stalemate, we're at a point where the minority party just wants to stop everything the majority party suggests or tries to do with no thought to the merits of the legislation or idea or suggestion. If an R proposes something, the Democrats in mass are against it. If the Democrats propose something, the Republicans circle their wagons against it.

Short story on how I see where we have got to the current polarization and mega, ultra high partisanship of today.


I hadn't even thought of the Hastert rule. That's a darn good point.... but I suspect that elections tend to be lagging indicators. I'm not so sure that the wave elections replacing moderates with ideologues that you describe are necessarily causes so much as effects (which can then, agreeably exercise feedback and enhance the original cause).
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#328988 - 09/22/20 11:05 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: CPWILL]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Anywho, it looks sort of like the Republicans have wrapped up enough votes to get a Senate Confirmation vote.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/politics/scotus-nomination-congress-latest-mitt-romney/index.html
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#328989 - 09/22/20 11:39 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Both sides tend to minimize or pass over their own abuses, and focus on those of the other, resulting in wildly skewed impressions of relative responsibility and levels of civility.

Perhaps you would try explaining why neither Trump nor the GOP has a 2020 platform or agenda for addressing America's problems, yet Biden has a very comprehensive platform. "Both sides" are definitely not doing due diligence in solving the issues of the day, but one side is.

I don't see the meat in the righties' righteous baloney sandwich.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#328990 - 09/22/20 11:58 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Here's another "both sides" conundrum, CP. Trump has been documented in some 20,000 significant lies during his term.

Is there a president on "the other side" who has done the same thing?

Those righties who say the same things about the lefties when bitching about politics, do they admit that Trump is a serial liar? (Hint: they deny it, i.e., they lie about his lying).

Is there a comparable "both sides do it" to that little un-meeting of the minds?

You may not agree with me on this, but it is possible to analyze and evaluate the degree to which "both sides do it". Merely saying that righties believe the same thing about lefties is not a data point with any usefulness beyond opinion.

Scale and relativity matter. So far you have presented Harry Reid as a "both sides" example (who is he, anyway?). You got anything else, like a timeline of significant events leading up to today's crazy division? I'd recommend starting with the Nixon administration.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#328995 - 09/23/20 01:33 AM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: CPWILL]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7345
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:

I think there is more room for overlap and agreement than is generally understood. Combative, accusatory rhetoric promotes defensiveness and tribalism, however, and covers it up.

Let's see .... omnibus budget bills ... yep to a certain extent and this should be a case n point.

DoD budget ... lot's of room to compromise but consider any bill which includes language on social issues i.e healthcare, SS, Medicare, equal rights, etc., there is no room to compromise since conservatives do not believe it is the obligation of government to provide services to it's citizenry other than protect them from foreign dangers (except in the case of Mr Trump and Russia). What would be the common ground for privatizing SS or the PO. or gun control? or pick an issue.

So ... can you provide examples of common ground?

BTW. It is implicit in my statement that if conservatives only believe the federal government should provide protection and not services then liberals would believe it is implied in the contractual agreement to provide for the general welfare of the citizenry.
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#329006 - 09/23/20 05:58 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: CPWILL]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3694
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
i think you are exactly right and that is, exactly, the problem. Everybody is viewing people instead of thoughts and beliefs. When was the last time anybody heard a conservative, for instance, state his/her opposition to Social Security by saying, right loud, "I am against Social Security because it doesn't allow people to make their own decisions". Instead the blather is about socialism, how its a huge mistake, etc. The left too has the same problem. Its always an attack instead of a wonder (I wonder, A LOT!)

In the good old days, when politicians were able to sit down and state where they stand on a specific issue they were able to hammer out something that both sides could live with. This does not mean that anybody had to give away anything or sacrifice their view. It just meant that there was an agreement that something needed fixing and then they could sit down and produce something that both sides could agree on. Nobody won, nobody lost. Then can the time time when everybody was encouraged to "give in" (forget the word), and sacrifice for the common good. Then it went on from there.

I think that just about everybody agrees that rape is not a good thing. So, folks get together to try and fix the problem. Today the fixing would be called yelling and screaming and attacking each other. In the good old days they would first agree there was a problem then each side would say how they might fix it. Unless folks were from different planets its likely that both sides would find solutions in common. Those would be put together and the solution presented.

This is the way it should work! Now, however, everybody is at each others' throats, nothing gets done, and its always the other side's fault. These days solutions must be completely what one side wants and this is, exactly, how things should not be nor were they designed this way. Nobody wants to really fix anything - they just wanna win! (and that is just plain crazy).

How about this. We hire shrinks that specialize in stopping conflicts to sit in all supposed meeting to solve anything. When conflict starts everything stops until the shrink has sessions with both sides to cure them of their dedicated bullsh*t.

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#329031 - 09/24/20 08:23 AM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10489
Loc: North San Diego County
I think those "conflict resolution" shrinks are going to need some remote controlled shock collars. But that's just an implementation detail...

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#329036 - 09/24/20 05:44 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3694
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
To get the attention of the group the shrink should also probably have whips, chains, and gags given that one would be working with a lot of crazed, incredibly self important, narcissists.

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