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#329022 - 09/23/20 11:59 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: rporter314
...in 1880 the KKK was predominantly members of the Democrat Party and today, not so much...

Those Democrats were conservative Democrats. Today, conservatives are Republican.

Bigotry and racism is not tied to being a Republican or Democrat, but bigotry and racism is tied to conservatism. That was true 140 years ago, and its true today. Hmm

I'm not sure it is. Although it might be. I remember a saying when I was growing up. The south has overt racism, the north covert racism. Something akin to that. That could still be the case when it comes to conservatives and liberals. I don't know, but possible.
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#329023 - 09/24/20 01:10 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17390
Loc: Florida
It's possible to still be a racist and be a Democrat. But once you become a liberal, it's difficult to justify racism in any form.

When your ideology trends towards the progressive, then racism and bigotry in all forms fall by the wayside.

When you become a socialist is when you realize that it is all class warfare.

Do both sides do what?
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#329025 - 09/24/20 01:38 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Originally Posted By: Greger
It's possible to still be a racist and be a Democrat. But once you become a liberal, it's difficult to justify racism in any form.

When your ideology trends towards the progressive, then racism and bigotry in all forms fall by the wayside.

When you become a socialist is when you realize that it is all class warfare.

Do both sides do what?

I really don't know. I see both sides using a divide and conquer strategy in search for votes. Pitting one group of voters against another. With rhetoric of trying to get the voter hate the other guy more than they hate you and hence will vote for you.

I'm not sure that falls under class warfare, but class warfare is used to try to attract voters. I'm also not sure being a progressive makes your racism fall by the roadside, it may just become more hidden.

You can see just laws passed for sure, but do laws change what's in a person's heart? I seen racism, bigotry in some strange places, southeast Asia. Where the upland Lao looked down on the hill tribes, where the lowland Lao looked down on the upland Lao and the hill tribes and the Thai looking down on all Lao. That I never expected.

Then there were some Americans who looked down on all the people of southeast Asia with their air of superiority. They did more harm than good in my opinion even if they knew their job better than any other.

I'm off on a tangent here. But to be honest, I never understood why civilians place so much emphasis on race. But as I stated, even the military had a problem, not so much with race among the American military. But with the native population not being up to their standards and hence looking down on them as inferior.

People are crazy is the only way I know how to put it.
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It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329026 - 09/24/20 01:39 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43449
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
It's possible to still be a racist and be a Democrat. But once you become a liberal, it's difficult to justify racism in any form.

Bow

Conservative Democrats are called BLUE DOGS. smile
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#329027 - 09/24/20 07:52 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Greger
Do both sides do what?

That’s the problem. It’s one of those blanket broad brush excuses used to smother discussion of difficult subjects. It usually comes out as a defense when “one side” (as though only two sides exist) has done something indefensible. I guess blaming “both sides” lets the bad side off the hook. Sorta like a Get Out of Jail Free card.

I think “both sides do it” shares most of the genetic code with “whattaboutthatguy”, where “one side” says, “your guy lied”, and the “other side” says, “but what about that guy, he lied, too”, and they cancel each other out, leaving nothing to argue about.

Surprisingly, this is not what “cancel culture” means. Hmm

LOL
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#329033 - 09/24/20 01:52 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Greger
It's possible to still be a racist and be a Democrat. But once you become a liberal, it's difficult to justify racism in any form.

Bow

Conservative Democrats are called BLUE DOGS. smile
Blue dogs are moderate Democrats. There seem to be very few left.


Edited by perotista (09/24/20 01:52 PM)
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#329034 - 09/24/20 02:16 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Greger
Do both sides do what?

That’s the problem. It’s one of those blanket broad brush excuses used to smother discussion of difficult subjects. It usually comes out as a defense when “one side” (as though only two sides exist) has done something indefensible. I guess blaming “both sides” lets the bad side off the hook. Sorta like a Get Out of Jail Free card.

I think “both sides do it” shares most of the genetic code with “whattaboutthatguy”, where “one side” says, “your guy lied”, and the “other side” says, “but what about that guy, he lied, too”, and they cancel each other out, leaving nothing to argue about.

Surprisingly, this is not what “cancel culture” means. Hmm

LOL


You seen how Schumer, Ginsberg, McConnell easily reversed themselves from the their 2016 stance. I also pointed out how each side reversed themselves on the debt ceiling votes during Bush and then Obama.

What I'm looking for is for one or the other party to be consistent in their views. Not changing them all the time due to which ever party holds the presidency. Either be for or against raising the debt ceiling or for or against give a vote on a SCOTUS during an election year regardless of who is president. Have some core values, stand for your convictions, not just what is political expedient.

Now does that fall into the category of both side do it? It does when changing one stances on these things all depends whether or not the president if of your party or the other party.

Using executive orders to bypass congress is another that is done by both parties as of late. Changing senate rules during the middle of a session has been done by both parties. I don't think that is what the framers had in mind. In fact they abhorred the idea of political parties as they were afraid once political parties formed, it would be for the good of the party and not the nation.

Now I'm talking modern political parties, not the more or less clubs that existed prior to Andrew Jackson establishing the Democratic Party.

Whichever party becomes consistent with their view and stances regardless of who is president and I agree with their views, then I might join them. Until them I'll remain a free agent, a non-affiliated, making my mind up issue by issue regardless of either party's stances and I'll base my support or opposition to how I view the merits of their suggestion, legislation, stance on that issue. Not which party or president proposed it.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329041 - 09/24/20 09:49 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Seems like the "both sides do it" excuse is trending, so I thought it deserved to be a topic.

Here's a thought that just came to me... I am wondering why you most often see righties wielding the "both sides do it" discussion stopper. The response from lefties is usually, "no, they don't".

You'd think that if it was true that "both sides do it", then lefties would play that card just as much as righties.


That, or it would mean that those on the right had a slightly larger segment of folks who were both self aware and not intimidated by their own tribalists into silence.

Quote:
My suspicion is that lefties don't use it much because lefties aren't being accused of whatever heinous behaviors are at issue as often.

"Both sides do it" is a lame dodge that people use when they don't have a credible argument that they can support with facts.


Both Sides Do X isn't an excuse for any piece of behavior (a refrain of mine sometimes is that if something is Bad, then it is Bad, yes, Even If The Other Side Does It), merely a caution against ascribing as particular to one's opposition a failure that is, in fact, particular to Humans.

I've had some of this painfully brought home over the past few years. As an example, if you'd gone to me in 2013 and said that much of the "Evangelical" portion of the GOP would, in 2015 and 2016, throw in behind the Republican Bill Clinton (in terms of flagrant sexual abuse), I would have told you you were nuts, and I would have had fairly good ideological reasons (adherence to Christian teachings on sexuality, left-wing comfort with sexual libertinism) for thinking so. But, it turns out, that failing (the willingness to chuck moral concerns aside in order to defend the Avatar Of Our Tribe, particularly when we are desperate to win, having come off a loss) is all-too-human, and both sides do it.


Edited by CPWILL (09/24/20 09:56 PM)
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#329042 - 09/24/20 09:57 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17390
Loc: Florida
Quote:
What I'm looking for is for one or the other party to be consistent in their views.


I see plenty of consistency from both parties.

Let's look at some of the major issues...

Guns laws: R's against D's for

Abortion: R's against D's for.

Healthcare: R's against D's for.

Living wages, immigration, environmental regulation, covid safety compliance....the list goes on and the parties are consistently at loggerheads over the same old policies year in and year out and their positions never vary.

I call that consistent.

Both parties play politics, but both parties are POLITICAL Parties and what do you do at a political party...?

You play fecking politics, and yes both parties do that.
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#329044 - 09/24/20 10:02 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: perotista
You seen how Schumer, Ginsberg, McConnell easily reversed themselves from the their 2016 stance. I also pointed out how each side reversed themselves on the debt ceiling votes during Bush and then Obama.


The Other Party Made Me Do It. laugh
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