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#329037 - 09/24/20 05:48 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
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I fear that wouldn't be enough. I think I would also include cameras which actually might tone it down a bit. That might even work! after the shouting, yelling, name calling, etc is done the trick would be to take everybody out to dinner, get them a little tipsy and then play back their, er, well, you know........... That might at least give them something to think about?

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#329043 - 09/24/20 10:00 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Both sides tend to minimize or pass over their own abuses, and focus on those of the other, resulting in wildly skewed impressions of relative responsibility and levels of civility.

Perhaps you would try explaining why neither Trump nor the GOP has a 2020 platform or agenda for addressing America's problems, yet Biden has a very comprehensive platform. "Both sides" are definitely not doing due diligence in solving the issues of the day, but one side is.


:shrug: The GOP fails to have a platform this year because they have decided to just go ahead and sotto voice admit that they are a personality cult. I suppose you could say that, when it came to Trump, they decided he was sort of like god, and they needed to start picturing him as some sort of semi-devine being. smile

But I'm confused as to what part of "Both sides tend to minimize or pass over their own abuses, and focus on those of the other, resulting in wildly skewed impressions of relative responsibility and levels of civility. " You thought meant "therefore, if the GOP doesn't have a platform, neither with the Democrats."


Edited by CPWILL (09/24/20 10:13 PM)
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#329047 - 09/24/20 10:27 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Both sides tend to minimize or pass over their own abuses, and focus on those of the other, resulting in wildly skewed impressions of relative responsibility and levels of civility.

Do you have some facts pertaining thereto?

Originally Posted By: CPWILL
But I'm confused as to what part of "Both sides tend to minimize or pass over their own abuses, and focus on those of the other, resulting in wildly skewed impressions of relative responsibility and levels of civility. " You thought meant "therefore, if the GOP doesn't have a platform, neither with the Democrats."

Argle bargle.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#329050 - 09/24/20 11:07 PM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
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Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Both sides tend to minimize or pass over their own abuses, and focus on those of the other, resulting in wildly skewed impressions of relative responsibility and levels of civility.

Do you have some facts pertaining thereto?


That this is an all-too-human enterprise, and that we all do indeed engage in it?

Yup. Tribalism. We tend to ascribe negative intent and overemphasize harm done by others while minimizing and ascribing to good intent harm done by ourselves - and we translate this up into group dynamics, attributing to negative intent and overemphasizing the harm done by members of disliked outgroups while minimizing and ascribing to good intent harm done by the ingroup.


As a result about a quarter of us hate each other, and even more of us think the other side is evil, and even more of us fear each other's hatred and disdain:

There is a wide divide between perception and reality across key measures of the Beyond Conflict Polarization Index™. Americans incorrectly believe that members of the other party dehumanize, dislike, and disagree with them about twice as much as they actually do. In short, we believe we’re more polarized than we really are—and that misperception can drive us even further apart. The divide is correlated with outcomes that are consequential for democracy and represent a new degree of toxic polarization in America...

frown


Originally Posted By: CPWILL
But I'm confused as to what part of "Both sides tend to minimize or pass over their own abuses, and focus on those of the other, resulting in wildly skewed impressions of relative responsibility and levels of civility. " You thought meant "therefore, if the GOP doesn't have a platform, neither with the Democrats."

Argle bargle. [/quote]

Not at all. I made the point that both sides tend to minimize or pass over their own abuses and focus on those of the other, rsulting in wildly skewed impressions of relative responsibility and levels of civility... and you responded... that the GOP did not have a Party Platform this year. :shrug:


Edited by CPWILL (09/24/20 11:09 PM)
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#329051 - 09/25/20 12:38 AM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Not at all. I made the point...

Sorry, but you didn’t make point. You expressed an opinion. The rest is word salad, none of which I have an appetite for.

Based on previous conversations, I am assuming that you don’t have any experience with lawsuits, which I hope continues to be the case for you. I only bring this up because one thing I have learned regarding others making claims in lawsuits is that you can’t allow them to dive into their arguments without first establishing whether their baseline assumptions are valid. People like to protect their original assumptions, because if they are invalid, then all arguments that follow from them are invalid. Life gets very confusing when invalid assumptions are allowed to propagate dependent claims, but life becomes much more comprehensible when assumptions are validated before the arguments commence.

“Both sides do it” is an invalid assumption.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#329054 - 09/25/20 01:15 AM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43449
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Not at all. I made the point...

Sorry, but you didn’t make point. You expressed an opinion. The rest is word salad, none of which I have an appetite for.

Based on previous conversations, I am assuming that you don’t have any experience with lawsuits, which I hope continues to be the case for you. I only bring this up because one thing I have learned regarding others making claims in lawsuits is that you can’t allow them to dive into their arguments without first establishing whether their baseline assumptions are valid. People like to protect their original assumptions, because if they are invalid, then all arguments that follow from them are invalid. Life gets very confusing when invalid assumptions are allowed to propagate dependent claims, but life becomes much more comprehensible when assumptions are validated before the arguments commence.

“Both sides do it” is an invalid assumption.

Great rejoinder Loggy. Bow

When someone is delusional like Donald Trump, they imagine all sorts of things that have no relationship to reality. coffee
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#329075 - 09/26/20 12:08 AM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Here's another "both sides" conundrum, CP. Trump has been documented in some 20,000 significant lies during his term.

Is there a president on "the other side" who has done the same thing


Who has lied? Absolutely. As many times as Trump? Whew, probably not - taking him literally, he's in a class of his own when it comes to sheer numbers of lies (many, many stupid ones. "more people came to my inauguration than anyone". "covfefe is a word")

But Democrats have absolutely continued to support Presidents who were liars. Heck, Bill Clinton got impeached for lying UNDER OATH, and Democrats didn't blink.

Quote:
Those righties who say the same things about the lefties when bitching about politics, do they admit that Trump is a serial liar? (Hint: they deny it, i.e., they lie about his lying).


Most folks don't like to admit bad things about their Tribe, that is certainly true. (shrug)

Quote:
You may not agree with me on this, but it is possible to analyze and evaluate the degree to which "both sides do it". Merely saying that righties believe the same thing about lefties is not a data point with any usefulness beyond opinion.

Scale and relativity matter. So far you have presented Harry Reid as a "both sides" example (who is he, anyway?).


....Harry Reid was the Senate Majority Leader. He lied about Romney's taxes on the Senate Floor repeatedly during the 2012 election to try to reinforce a lie in the public information sphere (that Romney cheated on his taxes) put there by Democrats. When asked about it, his response was "well, he lost, didn't he?", rather neatly encapsulating the argument that, under his leadership, Democrats didn't care if something was true, they only cared if it got them power.

It's one of those "both sides do it" things wink. Like pretending to care about election years when it comes time to nominate SCOTUS judges.

Quote:
You got anything else, like a timeline of significant events leading up to today's crazy division? I'd recommend starting with the Nixon administration.


Perotista actually had one of the best such timelines, imo.
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#329076 - 09/26/20 12:11 AM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Not at all. I made the point...

Sorry, but you didn’t make point. You expressed an opinion. The rest is word salad, none of which I have an appetite for.


I accept your implicit admission that you have no effective counter argument and, having asked for evidence, was unprepared to have it provided.

Quote:
Based on previous conversations, I am assuming that you don’t have any experience with lawsuits


Which is probably why you needed to retreat to your "I don't understand the difference between being able to pick between lawyers or represent myself in a courtroom and having no freedom to choose" position.


Quote:
People like to protect their original assumptions, because if they are invalid, then all arguments that follow from them are invalid


Indeed. For example, many people, blinded partly by human nature, by tribalism, by normal cognitive errors, end up making unsupported (and, in fact, contrary to evidence) arguments like:

Quote:
“Both sides do it” is an invalid assumption.


Edited by CPWILL (09/26/20 12:25 AM)
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#329077 - 09/26/20 12:24 AM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: rporter314]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:

I think there is more room for overlap and agreement than is generally understood. Combative, accusatory rhetoric promotes defensiveness and tribalism, however, and covers it up.

Let's see .... omnibus budget bills ... yep to a certain extent and this should be a case n point.

DoD budget ... lot's of room to compromise but consider any bill which includes language on social issues i.e healthcare, SS, Medicare, equal rights, etc., there is no room to compromise since conservatives do not believe it is the obligation of government to provide services to it's citizenry other than protect them from foreign dangers (except in the case of Mr Trump and Russia). What would be the common ground for privatizing SS or the PO. or gun control? or pick an issue.

So ... can you provide examples of common ground?


Sure! smile I think there are a lot of ways (for example) to meet leftish policy ends using conservative means.

There is also a lot of ability to pursue bipartisan policy options in police reform, poverty reduction, even contentious social issues if we could stop panicking over each other. As a single example, the right leaning American Enterprise and left-leaning Brookings Institutes released a Joint plan for reducing poverty and restoring the American Dream. There is room there. There's just not any political success in it, since what the voting public wants nowadays is not statesmen (and stateswomen), but, rather, pugilist avatars who will "Own The [other team]" for their entertainment, consumption, and hatred.


Quote:
BTW. It is implicit in my statement that if conservatives only believe the federal government should provide protection and not services then liberals would believe it is implied in the contractual agreement to provide for the general welfare of the citizenry.


The General Welfare of the country =/= the Specific Welfare of particular individuals who were to be provided for by taking from others, and was a purpose of the specifics laid out in the document, not a specific itself. James Madison - intellectual father of our Constitution - put it thus:

If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion in to their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county, and parish and pay them out of the public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor . . . Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited government established by the people of America.
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#329078 - 09/26/20 12:26 AM Re: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Has Died [Re: jgw]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: jgw
i think you are exactly right and that is, exactly, the problem. Everybody is viewing people instead of thoughts and beliefs. When was the last time anybody heard a conservative, for instance, state his/her opposition to Social Security by saying, right loud, "I am against Social Security because it doesn't allow people to make their own decisions". Instead the blather is about socialism, how its a huge mistake, etc. The left too has the same problem. Its always an attack instead of a wonder (I wonder, A LOT!)

In the good old days, when politicians were able to sit down and state where they stand on a specific issue they were able to hammer out something that both sides could live with. This does not mean that anybody had to give away anything or sacrifice their view. It just meant that there was an agreement that something needed fixing and then they could sit down and produce something that both sides could agree on. Nobody won, nobody lost. Then can the time time when everybody was encouraged to "give in" (forget the word), and sacrifice for the common good. Then it went on from there.

I think that just about everybody agrees that rape is not a good thing. So, folks get together to try and fix the problem. Today the fixing would be called yelling and screaming and attacking each other. In the good old days they would first agree there was a problem then each side would say how they might fix it. Unless folks were from different planets its likely that both sides would find solutions in common. Those would be put together and the solution presented.

This is the way it should work! Now, however, everybody is at each others' throats, nothing gets done, and its always the other side's fault. These days solutions must be completely what one side wants and this is, exactly, how things should not be nor were they designed this way. Nobody wants to really fix anything - they just wanna win! (and that is just plain crazy).

How about this. We hire shrinks that specialize in stopping conflicts to sit in all supposed meeting to solve anything. When conflict starts everything stops until the shrink has sessions with both sides to cure them of their dedicated bullsh*t.


laugh I have a friend with a similar solution, wherein we declare James Mattis to be President for a single term, and during that term, he does nothing but tell us all to Go To Our Rooms And Think About What We Did. laugh
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