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#329045 - 09/24/20 10:07 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43457
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Greger
It's possible to still be a racist and be a Democrat. But once you become a liberal, it's difficult to justify racism in any form.

Bow

Conservative Democrats are called BLUE DOGS. smile
Blue dogs are moderate Democrats. There seem to be very few left.

Centrists do not promote fiscally responsibility nor promote a national defense - conservatives do that. smile
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#329046 - 09/24/20 10:09 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43457
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
What I'm looking for is for one or the other party to be consistent in their views.


I see plenty of consistency from both parties.

Let's look at some of the major issues...

Guns laws: R's against D's for

Abortion: R's against D's for.

Healthcare: R's against D's for.

Living wages, immigration, environmental regulation, covid safety compliance....the list goes on and the parties are consistently at loggerheads over the same old policies year in and year out and their positions never vary.

I call that consistent.

Bow
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#329048 - 09/24/20 10:30 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
I've had some of this painfully brought home over the past few years. As an example, if you'd gone to me in 2013 and said that much of the "Evangelical" portion of the GOP would, in 2015 and 2016, throw in behind the Republican Bill Clinton (in terms of flagrant sexual abuse), I would have told you you were nuts, and I would have had fairly good ideological reasons (adherence to Christian teachings on sexuality, left-wing comfort with sexual libertinism) for thinking so. But, it turns out, that failing (the willingness to chuck moral concerns aside in order to defend the Avatar Of Our Tribe, particularly when we are desperate to win, having come off a loss) is all-too-human, and both sides do it.

Jibber jabber.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#329049 - 09/24/20 10:51 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I meant jiggery pokery...
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#329052 - 09/25/20 12:49 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: CPWILL]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
LOL. Yeah, the other party made me do it or was that the devil. I forget.

It's amazing how fast these politicians can reverse themselves. Used care salesmen are more honest and trusted than members of congress. At least according to Gallup.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329053 - 09/25/20 12:55 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Greger
It's possible to still be a racist and be a Democrat. But once you become a liberal, it's difficult to justify racism in any form.

Bow

Conservative Democrats are called BLUE DOGS. smile
Blue dogs are moderate Democrats. There seem to be very few left.

Centrists do not promote fiscally responsibility nor promote a national defense - conservatives do that. smile

I believe in being fiscal responsible which neither party does. As for national defense, I explained earlier that if congress stopped using the military as a civilian jobs creator and maintainer, cutting 100 billion from the defense budget could be easily done without hurting national defense or the military's ability to defend this country.

I still view the blue dogs as over all moderate democrats.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329055 - 09/25/20 01:22 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43457
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
I believe in being fiscal responsible which neither party does.

That would be very incorrect. Republicans very much say they are for fiscal responsibly. Reality for Republicans shows otherwise. Democrats don't pretend to be fiscally responsibilie nor play lip service to it as Republicans do.

Originally Posted By: perotista
As for national defense, I explained earlier that if congress stopped using the military as a civilian jobs creator and maintainer, cutting 100 billion from the defense budget could be easily done without hurting national defense or the military's ability to defend this country.

Yet most of the military jobs are in red states - cutting military jobs will never happen

Originally Posted By: perotista
I still view the blue dogs as over all moderate democrats.

To do so would suggest there is no thing as a conservative Democrat and you have got to know that is a false assumption just on the face of it.
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#329061 - 09/25/20 12:41 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: logtroll
[quote=Greger]Do both sides do what?

“It”.

The trick lies in the unexamined assumption that ”it” is the same thing as done by “both sides”, and there is no difference in scale, relativity, or context.

“It” can also refer to something with multiple layers, like the shifting positions on election year SCOTUS picks. One narrow layer’s meaning of “it” in that case is of being for it, then against it. But the really disturbing layer is the dishonest, lying, cheating thing where “it” includes, “You can use my words against me, I would never ... yadda, yadda”. Another “nuance” is that in the Garland instance the situation arose nearly a year before the election, not 45 days.

Clearly, “both sides do it”, in this example there is very weak equivalency. To wave the issue away with a sighed “both sides do it” is an avoidance strategy. As I tried to communicate in an earlier post, with the artful help of Carley Simon, one side does it better.

Not least, there is no opportunity to solve the problem if we simply dismiss it because, “both sides do it”.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#329062 - 09/25/20 01:27 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
Both major parties got rid of their unwanted wings long ago. The GOP got rid of its liberal wing, the old liberal Rockefeller wing of the Northeast and the Democrats discarded their conservative southern wing.

Now granted there are certain degrees of conservatism and liberalism. But what we see is liberals moving into the Democratic Party and Conservatives going to the Republican Party. Moderates are becoming independents as both parties who have already shed their unwanted wings are now in the process of trying to get rid of moderates.

What isn't taken into consideration is an individual can be very conservative on some issues and very liberal on others. As an example, A person can be pro-2nd amendment and pro-choice at the same time or vice versa. One can like the way the Republicans run the economy and like the views and actions of the democrats on social issues. I think a lot of those we deem as being moderates aren't moderates in the sense most folks view them. But are conservative on some issues and liberal on others. They don't fit into the list of ideological views on all issues that the major parties do. They agree with the GOP on some, with the Democrats on others and don't give an owl's hoot on still others that both major parties find very important.

Some of those who we classify as moderates actually have strong opinion on issues where they may agree with the democrats on about a third, with the Republicans on another third and don't care on the remaining third. Or some percentages moved a little or a lot one way or the other. But they still don't fit the mode or ideology of either party. They can't pass the litmus tests of either as one may be pro-life but agree on most other issues with the democrats, but being pro-life gets them expelled. Or one could anti-2nd amendment or pro-choice but agree with most other issues with the Republicans, yet the GOP wants them gone.

So both major parties continue to shrink while independents continue to grow.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#329063 - 09/25/20 01:48 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: perotista
Some of those who we classify as moderates actually have strong opinion on issues where they may agree with the democrats on about a third, with the Republicans on another third and don't care on the remaining third. Or some percentages moved a little or a lot one way or the other. But they still don't fit the mode or ideology of either party. They can't pass the litmus tests of either as one may be pro-life but agree on most other issues with the democrats, but being pro-life gets them expelled. Or one could anti-2nd amendment or pro-choice but agree with most other issues with the Republicans, yet the GOP wants them gone.

So both major parties continue to shrink while independents continue to grow.

More substantial evidence of the fallacy of the "both sides" assumption. (That's why I most generally put "both sides" in quotes).
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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