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#329148 - 09/27/20 09:09 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17393
Loc: Florida
Who are the Dem Purists?
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#329151 - 09/27/20 10:53 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 470
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
End of book


And the answer is, yes. Both sides do it. But do both sides do it with the future of working Americans and their families in mind?

Or neither?


Both sides start off thinking they do, turn into self-interested entities, and tell themselves that they have to be self interested in order to gain the power to benefit the future of working Americans and their families... and power ends up being an end, not a means.
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Winter Is Coming

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#329152 - 09/27/20 11:46 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
End of book


And the answer is, yes. Both sides do it. But do both sides do it with the future of working Americans and their families in mind?

Or neither?

I would say neither. That it is all about power, either getting or retaining power. I would say it is putting political party above everything else. That they have forgotten they represent and are suppose to work for the good of all Americans. America as a whole and not just their political party's base.

Of course, I'm not affiliated with either party, I just don't disdain the party I'm do not belong to. I disdain both. I'm probably fairly unique in that or again maybe not since 40% of the electorate are now unaffiliated with either.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329156 - 09/28/20 12:33 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: CPWILL]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
End of book


And the answer is, yes. Both sides do it. But do both sides do it with the future of working Americans and their families in mind?

Or neither?


Both sides start off thinking they do, turn into self-interested entities, and tell themselves that they have to be self interested in order to gain the power to benefit the future of working Americans and their families... and power ends up being an end, not a means.


Representing the working class, this got me thinking as ever since FDR, the Democratic Party was the party that represented the working class while the Republican Party was the party of business or at least that's the way it has been seen.

I decided to check out the three deciding states on this, the working class split their vote in Wisconsin 46-46 between Trump and Clinton. Obama won this same group 57-42. Michigan 52-44 Clinton, Obama 60-39 over Romney, Pennsylvania Clinton 53-44, Obama 61-38 over Romney.

nationally, working class, 52-41 Clinton, Obama won them 58-40.

Two things stand out, 1. The Democrats Party lost a large chunk of the working class vote between 2012 and 2016 although they still won that group by good numbers. That is except in Wisconsin. Wisconsin, the anomaly, could possibly be attributed to Trump visiting that state five times talking jobs while Hillary failed to visit Wisconsin even once. But what about the 6 point drop for her vs. Obama in 2012 nationally?

2. Obama was much more attractive to the working class than Hillary Clinton was. Could it be the last four years of Obama they spent way too much time talking about which bathroom a transgender could use than jobs among other things that a worker either looking for or afraid of losing his job had no interest in?

Okay, that's the past, what do the polls say about this year? The latest averaging of polls shows Biden 49%, Trump 33%, 18% not sure or undecided. If the undecided split down the middle you're going back to the Obama era in winning the working class by 18 or so points for the Democrats.

So perhaps, the Republican Party hasn't made any inroads into the working class. It was just the candidate they offered up they particular didn't care much for.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329157 - 09/28/20 01:11 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17393
Loc: Florida
And that's the very reason Democrats need to embrace the progressive wing of the party...to set themselves apart from the management class that powers the Republican money machine.

Neoliberalism has failed on every front, perhaps it's time for neosocialism.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#329162 - 09/28/20 02:46 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10489
Loc: North San Diego County
I don't think there is anything wrong with getting rid of the filibuster: It's a fundamentally undemocratic institution that let a minority in the Senate thwart the will of the majority. But instead of killing it outright, they could have just modified it so the minority had their opportunity to be heard while not forcing their control on the majority. For example, start with a 60 vote requirement for cloture, and then reduce that by five votes per day. So the minority could have two full days to filibuster, and then they are done.

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#329165 - 09/28/20 03:17 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
Funny how we really had no problems with the filibuster until Reid and McConnell took over. Senate leaders in the past were always willing compromise or play the game of give and take. Either that or they worked out something where one party would get this if the other got that.

The filibuster stopped having this country lurched wayward left one election and wayward right the next. For those party leaders who were willing to work with the other party, the filibuster only slowed things down a bit.

Why all of a sudden are we having tons of problems with the filibuster? I put the blame strictly on today's senate party leaders. If Lott and Daschle, if Mitchell and Dole, if Baker and Byrd can work things out and keep things moving forward, why couldn't or why can't Reid and McConnell or Schumer and McConnell work things out the same way all the senate party leaders of the past did?

I'll tell you why, in today's modern political era of polarization, mega, ultra high partisanship, today's party leaders put their political party way above everything else. It's more important to stop everything Republican or stop everything Democratic than to get anything accomplished. Neither party is willing to accept 90% of what they want if that means giving the other party 10%. Each would rather have nothing.

The senate leaders of the past never thought that way, but they sure do now.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#329166 - 09/28/20 03:24 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
Originally Posted By: Greger
And that's the very reason Democrats need to embrace the progressive wing of the party...to set themselves apart from the management class that powers the Republican money machine.

Neoliberalism has failed on every front, perhaps it's time for neosocialism.


First I think you have to get past the stigma of socialism. Way too many folks still associate that word with communism. A godless state, a state where the party owns everything, totalitarianism.

But perhaps it's coming around.

"Socialism and Atheism Still U.S. Political Liabilities"

https://news.gallup.com/poll/285563/socialism-atheism-political-liabilities.aspx
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329167 - 09/28/20 03:31 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: perotista
Funny how we really had no problems with the filibuster until Reid and McConnell took over. Senate leaders in the past were always willing compromise or play the game of give and take. Either that or they worked out something where one party would get this if the other got that.

The filibuster stopped having this country lurched wayward left one election and wayward right the next. For those party leaders who were willing to work with the other party, the filibuster only slowed things down a bit.

Why all of a sudden are we having tons of problems with the filibuster? I put the blame strictly on today's senate party leaders. If Lott and Daschle, if Mitchell and Dole, if Baker and Byrd can work things out and keep things moving forward, why couldn't or why can't Reid and McConnell or Schumer and McConnell work things out the same way all the senate party leaders of the past did?

Bring back earmarks.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#329170 - 09/28/20 09:34 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10489
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Bring back earmarks


They seem corrupt, but at least they were a way each side could offer the other something for their cooperation. Of course, they did create a lot of spending on stuff nobody wanted. Like fighter planes the Air Force did not want, etc.

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