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#329205 - 09/29/20 09:30 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
I've never heard of social democracy, so I had to google it.

Social democracy is a government system that has similar values to socialism, but within a capitalist framework. The ideology, named from democracy where people have a say in government actions, supports a competitive economy with money while also helping people whose jobs don't pay a lot.

Okay, so that sounds good. Now having a say in government actions, don't we have that now with our representatives, we elect them supposedly to represent us. With our senators, we elected them, supposedly to represent our state or the president to represent all of us. We do have a say in government actions, supposedly through our vote and who we elect.

We also have a welfare system, but perhaps it isn't designed that much to take care of folks who's job don't pay a lot. It's more suited for those with no jobs.

Am I wrong?

For me, the biggest problem is once we elect an official to represent us, they end up representing their political party much more. At least in those red districts, states who elect a democrat or blue districts, states who elect a Republican.

It seems to me that to give the citizens more of a say, we would have to move from a representative type government to a more direct democracy. Either that or do away with political parties to make our elected officials more responsible to the folks wants and wishes back in their districts and state.

Example was Collins voting to confirm Kavanaugh when the people of her state were against it and Jones voting against Kavanaugh when the people of his state were all for it. Both basically told the people they were suppose to represent to go to Hades, they're voting the party line.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329211 - 09/30/20 03:06 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10380
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Both sides clearly didn’t “do it” tonight.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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#329214 - 09/30/20 04:00 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17393
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Social democracy is a government system that has similar values to socialism, but within a capitalist framework. The ideology, named from democracy where people have a say in government actions, supports a competitive economy with money while also helping people whose jobs don't pay a lot.

Unfortunately the American Democratic Socialists Party chose a stupid name for their party and have stubbornly refused to rebrand.

Social democracy is essentially the goal of every socialist on the planet. If you Google "ten happiest nations" You will see a list of ten social democracies. It's a model that's working all over the world. Just a few tweaks and we could be among them.

What we're going to see over the next generation or two is the people harnessing the power of government and putting it to work doing useful things.
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#329223 - 09/30/20 01:19 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Social democracy is a government system that has similar values to socialism, but within a capitalist framework. The ideology, named from democracy where people have a say in government actions, supports a competitive economy with money while also helping people whose jobs don't pay a lot.


What we're going to see over the next generation or two is the people harnessing the power of government and putting it to work doing useful things.

I can see if one or two thing happen, one or the other. Get rid of the two majority parties so whoever the people elect are responsible to those who elected them instead of ignoring them and voting via their political parties wishes.

Either that or we need to add a few more viable political parties. Where we have enough 4-5 perhaps that can represent more diverse ideas and political ideologies. I would say most swing voters like some Democratic ideas and some Republican ideas, but despise both major parties as a whole.

You have 54% of all Americans disliking or view the Democratic Party in an unfavorable light vs. 60% of all Americans who view the Republican Party unfavorable. There's no liking either. But these views go up and down, are dynamic and at times one party rises above the other for a spell and then sinks again.

60% of Americans say a viable third party is needed.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas...ty-is-needed-to

But that will never happen as the two major parties have a monopoly on our election system. They write our election laws and do as a mutual protection act. If there is one thing both major parties agree on, it's no viable third party will ever rise.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329224 - 09/30/20 02:23 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43457
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Do "both sides" act like petulant children? No

Do "both sides" deserve the moniker "President Crackhead Clown?" No

All of the above clearly are coming from the right-side of the political spectrum at the moment. smile
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Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#329226 - 09/30/20 03:06 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
You're fixated on Trump. I have no doubt each major party believes only the other party plays dirty. That their party is clean and does absolutely nothing wrong and is above board in all they do.

That's completely false. All either party is interested in is gaining or retaining power and how they do it, shall I say the ends justifies the means. I'm unique here in all I want is competent leaders regardless of party and our elected officials paying attention to the wishes and wants of their constituents and not the dictates of their party leaders.

I want Trump gone, not because he's a Republican, but because I view him as an incompetent leader and president. Biden is much more competent regardless of political party. I want representatives who represent and vote according to the views and wants of the people in their district and senators who do the same according to the wishes and wants of the people in their states. Way too often I see the exact opposite, many, by no means all or probably not even a majority of those going along with the dictates of their party's leaders rather than what is wanted by the folks back home. Way too often it is these representatives and senators going against the folks back home that make the difference.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329229 - 09/30/20 04:45 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3694
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have to keep saying this. The word "social" and "socialism" generate negatives that destroy the message. That is a simple fact. Bernie, I believe, lost because he insisted on the "socialist" in his run. I am for socializing stuff that helps everybody and needs to be paid for, and supported, by everybody. Some things that fall into that category are, for instance, police and fire department. Things that should be in that category as well are healthcare and education. The trick is to get it done without all the blather and discussion. JUST DO IT! (slow, easy, step by step). This is not socialism and its done by most other major nations on the earth today.

Language is really important and I wish that the left/Democrats/whatever would understand that and pay attention. Otherwise they are going to fail. For me that a simple fact. The healthcare thing, for instance, should be proposed as a financial thing given that we spend something over 2 times as much as any other industrialized nation on the face of the earth. I am assuming that the mythic American public still cares about how their tax dollars are spent although, sometimes, I am not sure about that one. I also think they have the capacity to act in their own best interests but that too is open to question.

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#329230 - 09/30/20 05:04 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 933
Originally Posted By: jgw
I have to keep saying this. The word "social" and "socialism" generate negatives that destroy the message. That is a simple fact. Bernie, I believe, lost because he insisted on the "socialist" in his run. I am for socializing stuff that helps everybody and needs to be paid for, and supported, by everybody. Some things that fall into that category are, for instance, police and fire department. Things that should be in that category as well are healthcare and education. The trick is to get it done without all the blather and discussion. JUST DO IT! (slow, easy, step by step). This is not socialism and its done by most other major nations on the earth today.

Language is really important and I wish that the left/Democrats/whatever would understand that and pay attention. Otherwise they are going to fail. For me that a simple fact. The healthcare thing, for instance, should be proposed as a financial thing given that we spend something over 2 times as much as any other industrialized nation on the face of the earth. I am assuming that the mythic American public still cares about how their tax dollars are spent although, sometimes, I am not sure about that one. I also think they have the capacity to act in their own best interests but that too is open to question.


Agreed. You can see that here in the percentage that state they would vote for a socialist.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/285563/socialism-atheism-political-liabilities.aspx

A lot of folks, older, still equate socialism with the communism of the old USSR. Government run is another phrase that leaves a sour taste in a lot of folks mouths. They equate government run healthcare to the DMV, long lines, piss poor service.

Words do matter.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329233 - 09/30/20 05:24 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
rporter314 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 7345
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Words do matter.
and that is why education matters
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ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
Get off the crazy train!!! ... dump Trump

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#329234 - 09/30/20 06:30 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43457
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
You're fixated on Trump.

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Do "both sides" act like petulant children? No

Do "both sides" deserve the moniker "President Crackhead Clown?" No

All of the above clearly are coming from the right-side of the political spectrum at the moment. smile

I know I didn't stutter. coffee

No...both sides DON'T don't act like a Crackhead Clown or petulant child in the adult world. I am only seeing in from Republicans at the moment. smile
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