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#329235 - 09/30/20 06:32 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43449
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: perotista
I want Trump gone, not because he's a Republican, but because I view him as an incompetent leader and president.

...but you have to concede that Trump is the head of the Republican party right now. laugh
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#329236 - 09/30/20 06:51 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17390
Loc: Florida
Quote:
A lot of folks, older, still equate socialism with the communism of the old USSR. Government run is another phrase that leaves a sour taste in a lot of folks mouths. They equate government run healthcare to the DMV, long lines, piss poor service.

Words do matter.


And a lot of those older folks will soon be out of the picture.

The old communist USSR forgotten and seldom mentioned even in the history books. What younger voters will remember is the The Great Recession. The decades long wars. The Pandemic. The Trump Years.

The decline of the America they are told was once a great country.

What they see is the nice things that "socialist" countries have, like living wages, free education, healthcare.

Freedom.

Something we no longer have here.

Civil rights.

Something we are still fighting for but never seem to achieve.

Yes, words matter, but all we hear from our government anymore is empty words that mean nothing.

Socialism means something. It means government working for the people.
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#329238 - 09/30/20 08:20 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10477
Loc: North San Diego County
To some extent, labels don't matter because some Parties denigrate labels so much, they make them boogeymen. For example, "Liberal" is far from socialist, but the conservative noise machine has equated the two for decades. Now calling someone a Liberal generates the same revulsion as calling them a pedophile!

So even if the Social Democrats changed their name (EG. to Progressives) decades ago, conservatives would have sullied the new name just as much. They did the same thing to Hillary, though she had the positions of a moderate Republican.

Maybe the solution is to not accept a label? As an example, I keep seeing this: (Conservative vrs Progressive)

C: Socialism always fails.
P: Norway seems to be doing fine.
C: Norway is not socialist.
P: Okay, well what we want is a system like Norway's.

So maybe Social Democrats should rebrand as the "Like Norway Party"?

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#329244 - 09/30/20 09:39 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: pdx rick]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: perotista
I want Trump gone, not because he's a Republican, but because I view him as an incompetent leader and president.

...but you have to concede that Trump is the head of the Republican party right now. laugh

Sure, any president is the head of his party. Just like Obama, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, LBJ, JFK, Truman, FDR were leaders of the Democratic Party while Trump, G.W. Bush, G.H.W. Bush, Reagan, Ford, Nixon, IKE etc. were leaders of the Republican Party.

That goes without saying.
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#329245 - 09/30/20 09:42 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: pondering_it_all]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 927
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
To some extent, labels don't matter because some Parties denigrate labels so much, they make them boogeymen. For example, "Liberal" is far from socialist, but the conservative noise machine has equated the two for decades. Now calling someone a Liberal generates the same revulsion as calling them a pedophile!

So even if the Social Democrats changed their name (EG. to Progressives) decades ago, conservatives would have sullied the new name just as much. They did the same thing to Hillary, though she had the positions of a moderate Republican.

Maybe the solution is to not accept a label? As an example, I keep seeing this: (Conservative vrs Progressive)

C: Socialism always fails.
P: Norway seems to be doing fine.
C: Norway is not socialist.
P: Okay, well what we want is a system like Norway's.

So maybe Social Democrats should rebrand as the "Like Norway Party"?


You may have something there
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It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#329259 - 10/01/20 08:00 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17390
Loc: Florida
Quote:
So maybe Social Democrats should rebrand as the "Like Norway Party"?

Social democrats need to rebrand themselves social democrats instead of democratic socialists. They need to disavow Socialism like the president needed to disavow white supremacy...but they won't do it.
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#329278 - 10/02/20 06:58 AM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10477
Loc: North San Diego County
Even if it won them a whole bunch of local, state, and congressional offices? They have a pretty damned popular platform. It's just the unfortunate label that holds them back. Sort of like a progressive candidate in modern Germany named "Hitler". Maybe a name change would make a big difference.

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#329286 - 10/02/20 05:03 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2387
Capitalism is becoming a dirty word culturally with younger generations while both parties maintain public loyalty to it.

The cultural and economic fragmentation accelerating now goes beyond a brand name. As though the current reality can be reduced to failed consumer branding.

Your argument may have more weight with older, market culture indoctrinated generations but subsequent generations have their own problems and indoctrinations that hasn't attached stigma to the word socialism that older ones have.

Combined with the fact that neoliberal and neoconservative ideologies are proving themselves completely bankrupt, their sole purpose of propping up the criminally corrupt wealthy, can't justify itself anymore to future generations.

You also don't accept the framing of your class enemies in the first place. That's just good strategy. Hell, the fascists are already calling Biden a radical lefist socialist. Embrace it I say.

Liberals will carry water for fascism. It's how they justify themselves to power, no? It's that reason alone I won't buy the Liberal arguments.


Edited by chunkstyle (10/02/20 05:05 PM)

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#329298 - 10/02/20 07:02 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17390
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Embrace it I say.


Or at least stop trying to deny it. It's socialism that we're after instead of the existing capitalism.

Capitalism is a system that benefits the rich at the expense of the workers.

Socialism benefits the workers at the expense of the rich.

The way it's working out in the Scandinavian models, they are seeing more millionaires per capita but almost no billionaires at all. Everyone has good jobs, and are paid well, get healthcare, family leave, paid vacations and continuing education if they wish.

Essentially they are living The American Dream as we descend into fascism...
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#329299 - 10/02/20 07:27 PM Re: Do both sides really do it? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17390
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Capitalism is becoming a dirty word culturally with younger generations while both parties maintain public loyalty to it.


Jacobin Magazine has reported that thousands have become socialists in the last few months alone. Movements don't have to happen overnight and revolutions don't have to be violent.

The kids are gonna be alright.
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