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#330346 - 11/21/20 03:53 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: CPWILL]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10440
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Precisely. The founders would have found the notion that government can do anything those currently in power deem to be for the best to be anathema.

That's the reason they eventually abandoned the futile effort to form a government.
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#330347 - 11/21/20 05:16 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17476
Loc: Florida
Quote:
...the term general welfare in the preamble meant the general welfare of the nation.

No argument from me on that.

Now...in a nation of, by, and for the people...

When we discus "the general welfare of the nation", just who exactly are we talking about?

Billionaires? The Trump Family? Republicans only? Corporate interests only? Or perhaps all of the people who make up the nation?
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#330351 - 11/21/20 06:39 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3753
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I would suggest that folks be careful about dinking with the constitution. If we are not very careful we could end up with a constitutional convention and this is, I think, terrifying. Imagine, for just a minute, what would happen should something like occur. My thought is that determination of delegates alone should scare the hell out of everybody. I can see it now. The Democrats start with a big battle over who should be a delegate that represents each little dedicated group of purists and then moves up the chain. Whilst this is going on the Republicans, acting as one huge block choose those who 'deserve' the chance to "make things right" (and who they are told are those chosen by their dear leader). Consider, for just a moment what we would end up with.

Just a thought..........

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#330353 - 11/21/20 07:41 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43534
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


The ReTHUGS need 38 state legislators to control to do a convention.

smile
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#330354 - 11/21/20 07:42 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43534
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
...the term general welfare in the preamble meant the general welfare of the nation.

No argument from me on that.

Now...in a nation of, by, and for the people...

When we discus "the general welfare of the nation", just who exactly are we talking about?

Billionaires? The Trump Family? Republicans only? Corporate interests only? Or perhaps all of the people who make up the nation?

Since when do ReTHUGliclowns care about the average American? Hmm
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#330355 - 11/21/20 08:21 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: Greger]
perotista Online   content
member

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 1021
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
...the term general welfare in the preamble meant the general welfare of the nation.

No argument from me on that.

Now...in a nation of, by, and for the people...

When we discus "the general welfare of the nation", just who exactly are we talking about?

Billionaires? The Trump Family? Republicans only? Corporate interests only? Or perhaps all of the people who make up the nation?
That symposium was a long time ago. It was my understanding that the general welfare meant the nation as a whole. What makes up the nation, first it was a union of the several states which each have people in them. The gist was keeping the nation on sound financial grounds, securing and defending the nation, pretty much anything you can think of dealing with the nation as a whole. Not just parts of it.

Those were different days, the framers certainly looked at things different than we do today. The nation was for the most part an agrarian society, not highly industrialized, outside of a few cities, not urban. If one couldn't make it in the east, all he had to do is move west to where there was plenty of land available. This is no longer the case. Our society today is urban and suburban. Even the family farm is a thing of the past replaced by corporate farming.

So we have to look at things different. The framers knew things would change and they provided a means to change the constitution, via the amendment which we have had 26 of them.

I do think when the Constitution was written, when the preamble provided the introduction to it, the phrase general welfare applied to the nation as a whole. It was expected back then the states would take care of their own people. Back then when as were one came from, the reply was the state, New York, Virginia, Georgia, etc. I guess I'm off on a tangent, but in today's day and age, the federal government has taken over the responsibility for the people from the states, so whether the framers mean the nation or the people, that seems irrelevant.

Back then, it was just the nation as a whole. Today, it's everyone and everybody.
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#330357 - 11/21/20 08:32 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17476
Loc: Florida
That's exactly my point, Rick, the conservative mind slips right over "the People" and goes right to "the Nation" as if it is some separate entity that lives only in the hearts of true American patriots.

The ones that get butthurt when you kneel when a certain song plays.

The song that glorifies war and revolution.

**Edit**and deifies a flag.


Edited by Greger (11/21/20 08:34 PM)
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#330358 - 11/21/20 08:51 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17476
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Back then, it was just the nation as a whole. Today, it's everyone and everybody.



Everyone and everybody has the same rights.

They have the same basic needs.

Healthcare costs have only become an issue the last few decades. Most nations have realized that the costs needed to be socialized. The US is taking longer than most but will eventually follow suit.

Whatever conservatives are against is what will eventually happen. They're batting 1000 as far as being on the wrong side of history.
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#330360 - 11/21/20 10:07 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: Greger]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 480
Originally Posted By: Greger
That's exactly my point, Rick, the conservative mind slips right over "the People" and goes right to "the Nation" as if it is some separate entity that lives only in the hearts of true American patriots.


On the contrary - collectivism is, in this country at least, a far more common leftist failing. It wasn't American conservatives who were the proponents of Organic State Theory, or its variations it was Progressives. wink

Quote:
The ones that get butthurt when you kneel when a certain song plays.

The song that glorifies war and revolution.

**Edit**and deifies a flag.


I'm not aware of any portion of the Anthem that deifies any flat. Could you point to the section that attributes any of the characteristics of the Godhead to the Flag? Would be interested in seeing what I missed.
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#330361 - 11/21/20 10:09 PM Re: A Lot Went Wrong for Democrats on Election Night [Re: logtroll]
CPWILL Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/26/19
Posts: 480
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: CPWILL
Originally Posted By: perotista
I remembered from a symposium I attended around 15-20 years ago where it was explained the term general welfare in the preamble meant the general welfare of the nation.

Precisely. The founders would have found the notion that government can do anything those currently in power deem to be for the best to be anathema.

Well, I was at a seance last night and had a very deep and long conversation with the Founders on this very subject, and they just laughed at your "interpretation".

"You mean these guys don't think we know how to use the English language?"


smile Cute, but we have their writings that explain their thinking on the question at length. What I pointed out is about as controversial as "Water is Wet".
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