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#331106 - 01/03/21 06:39 PM Re: The Two Party System [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17484
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
The notion of Democrats being the ‘left’ implies a certain amount of ideological capture or is simply a different understanding of what ‘left’ represents.
For me, Democrats fall in the right hand side of the political spectrum for some time. It borrows left language but governs from the right.
In practice, it crushed the left while promoting right wing candidates thru it’s primary selection and campaign funding.

The Kentucky primary is a good example of this. Party got behind a candidate sporting identity politics (she’s a gay troop!) while running to the right of McConnell. She barely beat out a leftist candidate by just 5k votes while spending a mountain of cash to do so.
She had millions in the campaigns bank account when she went down in flames in the general while appealing for more ‘ditch Mitch’ donations right up until the polls closed.

Far from left. Very much emblematic of Dem Corp. A right wing political machine that raises cash off people’s fear in the elections while raising cash off corporations in the off season.

That anchors the left side of the two right wing political parties.
I suppose how one defines left and right. Compared to Europe, both of our major parties are smack dab in-between what Europe would define as being left and as being right.

The way I see, throwing Europe out the window since they are over there and we're over here, how Europe views left and right is totally irrelevant in my book. It's how the average American views the two major parties. To the average American Joe, the GOP is right, the Democrats left. Not nearly left enough for greger, but on something way too far left for me as is the Republicans way too far right on somethings for me to stomach.

Frankly, I don't give a coyote's howl how Europe views left and right. What's important is how Americans view it. They equate left with the Democratic Party and right with the Republican Party. Liberal vs. Conservative, although in the traditional sense of being a conservative there is nothing conservative about the Republicans as is the sense of classic liberalism anathema to the Democratic Party.

Our friend Chunkstyle has an idiosyncratic view of the left-right divide (as, I suspect, do all of us). For me, I see the opposite of "social"ism not as capitalism, but antisocial-ism.

I posited this on another forum, along with this observation:
Quote:
"One of the difficulties of discussing "socialism" as a concept is that it has been larded up with a variety of definitions that rarely address the core concept. "Social" is, definitionally (according to Webster) "of or relating to human society, the interaction of the individual and the group, or the welfare of human beings as members of society". The opposite of that, again literally and definitionally, is "contrary to the laws and customs of society; devoid of or antagonistic to sociable instincts or practices." That is, specifically, the dynamic at play here in discussions of political philosophy."
I think that is the primary distinction between our two major political parties: one bends toward the societal good, the other pushes against it.

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#331109 - 01/03/21 07:04 PM Re: The Two Party System [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2675
More arc bending

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#331110 - 01/03/21 07:13 PM Re: The Two Party System [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 1139
Hmm, I've heard it said liberals, the left want more government control over a person's daily life whereas conservatives/right want less. The old big government vs. small government argument.

Growing up in the 1950's, the amount of government control over one's daily life was very limited as I also heard that Washington might as well be on Mars for the amount of control, interference etc. that the federal government had. But back then, we had what, a third of the population. More rural than urban, more self reliance or family, neighborhood reliance and very few government programs.

Today, it's impossible to go back to the size of the government in those days. Way too many people. Times change and so too does government. The need to control industry, have safety rules, the need to try to make everyone equal, at least at the starting line is a must. Someone to make sure our food and water are safe to eat and drink. That we don't send miners into mines just to have a cave in. Car safety, insurance, all are necessary. Times change, but many political views haven't. The world of today is vastly different from the 1950's. so too are the needs and capability of the people to meet those needs.

I lived on a 120 acre farm and my family made a good living. Now the family farm is a thing of the past where one must have a thousand acres or so just to break even with massive farm equipment to plant and harvest.

Still, like most Americans I view the Democratic Party as the party of the left and the Republicans as the party as the right. Still, it all depends where one begins on the political spectrum. I'm sure those on the left view themselves as moderates as do those on the right. So the democratic party may be viewed as far left to them whereas the GOP is viewed far left by those on the right.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#331112 - 01/03/21 08:08 PM Re: The Two Party System [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10773
Loc: North San Diego County
I think a very important factor in the The Working Man's Party's decline, is the decline of The Working Man! Post-war, trade unions were a very powerful force in America. Not so much anymore. This is the age of the gig economy. Fewer employees and more contractors, so many of the Democratic Party's natural constituents consider themselves as "businessmen" and gravitate to Libertarian and Republican ideas.

Very few people have lifetime employment, a strong union that looks out for them, a pension, etc. If you want to move the country to the left, first you have to convince voters that is in their best interests.

The other decline is in the Christian idea of taking care of the poor and broken. Instead we have Republican Jesus, preached from pulpits across the land and on the media.

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#331123 - 01/04/21 12:36 AM Re: The Two Party System [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
member

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 1139
Yep, loss of industry and manufacturing since the 1950's has turned us into a tech and service economy. Like the family farm, the working man has become obsolete. Doesn't really exist.

Perhaps I'm living too much in the past and not in the present. where the historical norm doesn't apply anymore.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#331129 - 01/04/21 03:09 AM Re: The Two Party System [Re: perotista]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2675
Originally Posted By: perotista
Yep, loss of industry and manufacturing since the 1950's has turned us into a tech and service economy. Like the family farm, the working man has become obsolete. Doesn't really exist.

Perhaps I'm living too much in the past and not in the present. where the historical norm doesn't apply anymore.


Yes, you are.

You grew up in a mixed economy with full employment goals and much more regulatory oversight and are now living in a FIRE economy with low interest rates and asset price protection. Not an accident.

There’s plenty of work for workers. They’ve been getting called essential during the pandemic lately. Work has shifted from a productive manufacturing economy to a neofeudal ‘service’ economy without the guaranteed days off or housing under the old feudal system.

Boomers hold most of the wealth, commodities, assets, etc so guess who’s been voting for our current arrangements....



Edited by chunkstyle (01/04/21 03:14 AM)

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