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#68533 - 07/22/08 12:25 AM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: issodhos]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7509
Loc: Athens, Ga.
Ok.....I'm not going to involve myself in the Pearl Harbor example and all that....what constitutes an "assembly" and all that.
Those debates go a little "over me".
It's word parsing (to me) and aren't what I think of as brought up in the other thread.

Back in the feminism thread, "group" was used in the context of (for example) women's rights and men's rights. Do women (or men) as a group have rights?
Have I got this right?

Other group "rights" we often speak of are gay rights and African-American (and other minorities) rights (as Emma mentioned). Children's rights are another, even animal rights.
I'm sure there are many more.

To me, saying the individuals who come together (to demonstrate, march, assemble etc) to demand rights as a group are really just using numbers for strength to demand rights for the individuals of that group.
Therefore, yes, if you agree that individuals have certain inalienable rights (yes yes I know it is up for debate what "inalienable" actually is), then those folks gathering as a group do too.
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#68542 - 07/22/08 02:26 AM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
As to your charge that I present myself as the universal authority on rights, on the contrary, I have based my statements and opinion on the thinking of the ideas of many very smart men who pondered the issue of natural rights and man’s relationship to the state over the centuries. I have claimed no special insight,
Issodhos


Alright,
here is what I what I would base my opinion on...
this is a quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 Quote:
Eighth, human rights are rights, but not necessarily in a strict sense. As rights they have several features. One is that they have rightholders — a person or agency having a particular right. Broadly, the rightholders of human rights are all people living today. More precisely, they are sometimes all people, sometimes all citizens of countries, sometimes all members of groups with particular vulnerabilities (women, children, racial and religious minorities, indigenous peoples), and sometimes all ethnic groups (as with rights against genocide.)

link


The submission of this link demonstrates that ...at the very least ... the issue we are discussing is an area of disagreement. And given that the issue is a matter of disagreement , it is not therefore resolved. And being an unresolved issue, one cannot conclusively say what is the fact of the matter.



Edited by Ardy (07/22/08 04:00 AM)
Edit Reason: Editied to conform to posting guidelines
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#68543 - 07/22/08 02:49 AM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: Ardy]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
OK, please address the topic of this thread and carry on personal issues by PM, please.

Phil Hoskins, moderator
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#68552 - 07/22/08 04:08 AM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
But, that aside, the US government responded to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor by carrying out what was, from the founding of the republic, recognized as a valid and basic function of any government instituted among men – securing and protecting its citizen’s pre-existing rights.
Issodhos


Exactly... you have discovered the answer to your question
 Quote:
However, I would be interested in an example of how a group would exercise a 'right' held by it. Do you have such an example?
Yours in curiosity,:-)
Issodhos


What you have not answered is how your own question would be answered in the context of the definition of rights that you propose. That is... how would individuals whose rights were violated at Pearl Harbor exercise their rights individual against the specific individuals that violated their rights?
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#68555 - 07/22/08 04:40 AM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
[there is no right to happiness nor a right to the avoidance of the loss of a loved one


Interesting. So, if I understand correctly... I do have rights that may be violated through loss of property stolen from a hospital room, but no rights that could be violated in the loss of a child due to negligent medical practice in that same hospital room?
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#68580 - 07/22/08 05:22 PM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: issodhos]
Ron G. Offline
member

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
...Anything greater than a single person would, I believe, constitute a group. How do you equate that with a right...


At its inception, Lebanon had an example of the application of so-called "group rights": The Maronite Christians had the "right" to supply the president, and the Sunni Muslims had the "right" to supply the Prime Minister. Similar notions of rights applied in the former state of Yugoslavia, where Orthodox Serbs, Roman Catholic Croats and Muslim Bosnians each had certain "rights" attached to being, respectively, Serb, Croat and Bosnian. In India, the Sudras - the "untouchables" - have the right to a certain minimum number of slots in the bureaucracy and in the universities. The recent USSC decision on the Second Amendment dealt with the notion of the right to keep and bear arms as something inherent to the individual and not, per the collectivist view, a right associated with a group called the militia.

These things, creatures granted by the state and taken away by the state, are just a bit to ephemeral to be dignified as "rights"; entitlements is really what they should be called.


Edited by Ron G. (07/22/08 05:27 PM)
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#68596 - 07/22/08 11:52 PM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: issodhos]
EmmaG Offline
member

Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 1841
Loc: Florida Piney Woods
 Quote:
As to your charge that I present myself as the universal authority on rights, on the contrary, I have based my statements and opinion on the thinking of the ideas of many very smart men who pondered the issue of natural rights and man’s relationship to the state over the centuries.


HA! You based your statement on smart men who thought about men's relationships. No wonder your argument is so facetious...you didn't talk to any women!

EmmaG
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#68611 - 07/23/08 05:57 AM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
As to your charge that I present myself as the universal authority on rights, on the contrary, I have based my statements and opinion on the thinking of the ideas of many very smart men who pondered the issue of natural rights and man’s relationship to the state over the centuries. I have claimed no special insight,
Issodhos


Alright,
here is what I what I would base my opinion on...
this is a quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 Quote:
Eighth, human rights are rights, but not necessarily in a strict sense. As rights they have several features. One is that they have rightholders — a person or agency having a particular right. Broadly, the rightholders of human rights are all people living today. More precisely, they are sometimes all people, sometimes all citizens of countries, sometimes all members of groups with particular vulnerabilities (women, children, racial and religious minorities, indigenous peoples), and sometimes all ethnic groups (as with rights against genocide.)

link


Fine. If that shallow bit of politically correct bit of drivel works for you, then good on you.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#68612 - 07/23/08 06:00 AM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
But, that aside, the US government responded to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor by carrying out what was, from the founding of the republic, recognized as a valid and basic function of any government instituted among men – securing and protecting its citizen’s pre-existing rights.
Issodhos


Exactly... you have discovered the answer to your question


Actually, no. A government function is not a 'group right'. It is simply a government function.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#68613 - 07/23/08 06:11 AM Re: Individual Rights vs Group claims [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Ardy
 Originally Posted By: issodhos
[there is no right to happiness nor a right to the avoidance of the loss of a loved one


Interesting. So, if I understand correctly... I do have rights that may be violated through loss of property stolen from a hospital room, but no rights that could be violated in the loss of a child due to negligent medical practice in that same hospital room?


Was the child stolen? Was the "negligent medical practice" intentional? If not, your comparison fails. Do you assume that there is a right to avoiding the loss of the child? Or are you really asking if the parent has legal redress toward those who may have violated the child's right to life?
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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