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#92111 - 12/23/08 11:52 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: pondering_it_all]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think Obama is just following the instincts that got him elected. I read a story on Slate that explains how PE Obama tapped into people's emotional responses:
Obama in your Heart

The key to influencing people is not so much what you said, but rather how you made them feel. Nobody will remember Warren's prayer during the inauguration, but plenty of Evangelical Christians will remember how it made them feel to see one of their own up there with President Obama. I think we will see Obama's approval rating jump because many E.C.s will stop fearing him.

But now let's segue back onto the thread topic: I think that inducing these same types of feelings will be the key to acceptance of same-sex marriage. It may be lot's of fun to march in a parade with groups of guy's wearing jock straps or leather chaps, with a giant penis float. (And I have nothing aginst celibrating your sexual identity!) But scenes of those events on TV only induce fear in the hearts of Gay Marriage opponents.

If instead LGBT people (and their friends to a lesser extent) can reach out to those who fear them, and help them see that "they are just like me", and deserving of all of life's joys, then we might get somewhere. This approach has certainly worked for some politicians who have reversed their positions after learning that a loved one is gay or lesbian.

I know it's difficult to reach out to your enemies, but that's the only way to turn them into friends.


The more difficult issue, PIA, is that for many of us gays, we have no desire to be seen as "just like you" and that is the real test of America's commitment to equality. Can we let people be different and still accept them as equals.

for me this is the real issue here, not marriage itself. I have no desire to marry my partner so it just isn't about that. I do not want to be told that I cannot marry him, nor do I want to pay extra taxes so that others can marry.

I want the promise of America extended to all -- whether likeable or not. Whether very different or not. We all have the right to pursue life as we see fit, and government should not pick favorites among us. That is the point for me in all this.


Edited by Phil Hoskins (12/23/08 11:55 PM)
Edit Reason: added thought
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#92114 - 12/23/08 11:03 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: Phil Hoskins]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41065
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
...for many of us gays, we have no desire to be seen as "just like you" and that is the real test of America's commitment to equality. Can we let people be different and still accept them as equals.

Good argument Counselor! \:\)
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#92115 - 12/23/08 11:19 PM Re: We shall overcome [Re: pdx rick]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
 Quote:
California Atty. Gen. Jerry Brown’s decision to ask the Supreme Court to overturn the state’s ban on same-sex marriage has been widely hailed as a victory in the fight for gay rights.

But far less attention has been paid to Brown’s lengthy written rejection of some of the principal legal theories put forth by gay marriage advocates in their bid to roll back Proposition 8. In his brief filed on Friday, Brown said he believed a ban on same-sex marriage undermined fundamental liberties enshrined in California’s Constitution.

But the larger chunk of his 111-page legal filing was devoted to shooting down a more technical legal argument used by gay marriage supporters. Brown said attorneys challenging the measure had “failed” to prove their point that the ballot measure offers such a major revision to the state Constitution that it cannot be enacted by a voter-approved initiative alone.

Brown’s decision to throw the weight of his office behind gay marriage has sparked debate over whether his arguments will actually do more harm than good for those hoping to overturn the initiative. Some opponents of gay marriage say they are relieved that Brown, who personally supports gay marriage, did an about-face and will not be offering a half-hearted defense of the initiative before the Supreme Court. At the same time, they say, Brown’s legal position helps undermine a key claim that voters alone cannot decide an issue that makes such a major change to the state’s Constitution.

“That’s game, set and match,” said John C. Eastman, a director of the conservative Center for Constitutional Jurisprudence at the Claremont Institute, who plans to file a brief supporting the ballot measure. “I think he has greatly bolstered the arguments of the Prop. 8 folks.”

Other experts, however, say Brown has carefully forged a novel legal path that the state’s highest court could follow to overturn the initiative. That could be particularly important if the justices reject the other arguments offered by opponents of the measure. “Strategically, I think it’s a clever move,” said Jesse H. Choper, a professor of law at UC Berkeley.

“It gives the California Supreme Court another way to invalidate Prop. 8.” Immediately after the Nov. 4 election, Brown pledged to defend the initiative, saying he believed it was a properly approved amendment to the Constitution.

Los Angeles Times
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#92118 - 12/24/08 12:10 AM Re: We shall overcome [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffro Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 605
Loc: San Francisco
 Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
But now let's segue back onto the thread topic: I think that inducing these same types of feelings will be the key to acceptance of same-sex marriage. It may be lot's of fun to march in a parade with groups of guy's wearing jock straps or leather chaps, with a giant penis float. (And I have nothing aginst celibrating your sexual identity!) But scenes of those events on TV only induce fear in the hearts of Gay Marriage opponents.

If instead LGBT people (and their friends to a lesser extent) can reach out to those who fear them, and help them see that "they are just like me", and deserving of all of life's joys, then we might get somewhere.


This is what I've been saying and practicing all my life. And we have also made much progress...

But, Wow! What gay parades are they broadcasting on your television? That sounds more like the Pride Parades I went to 20 years ago - you know, the fun ones. Before all the corporate sponsorship. I was frankly really surprised and somewhat bored with all the strollers, kids, churches and "straights for gay rights". I'm not complaining - well, maybe a little. The support is wonderful, but it ain't jock straps and penis floats (now available at Baskin-Robbins!). Careful what you wish for, huh? Just to prove my point, here's a couple pics from this year:

_________________________
We are constantly invited to be who we are. Henry David Thoreau

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#92120 - 12/24/08 12:42 AM Re: We shall overcome [Re: Jeffro]
stereoman Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 15646
Loc: Asheville, NC
Yep, well that's what happens all right. When people embrace one another's values, inevitably both parties get hugged.
_________________________
Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)


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#92124 - 12/24/08 01:18 AM Re: We shall overcome [Re: stereoman]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
Phil,

I understand your point about not needing or wanting approval of anybody to enjoy your civil rights. The analogy is: What is the point of having Freedom of Speech if you never say anything offensive? The First Amendment is there to protect our right to say offensive things, since non-offensive speech doesn't need any protection. And that is exactly why I look to the California Supreme Court and eventually the US Supreme Court to overturn all laws that deny anyone equal rights or equal protection under the law.

But I think the Prop 8 initiative and others like it that will follow even if it is overturned, in California and in other states, can be defeated at the polls if enough of the voters had some sympathy and understanding of what they were doing to gay and lesbian people when they vote for these horrible things. Lots of those people know and like gay and lesbian people but don't know their sexual orientation, or don't understand how devastating it would be to be told you are not allowed to exercise the same rights because of your sexual orientation.

Over time, more and more gay and lesbian people will come out, more positive images of them will be in the media, and more of the hopelessly homophobic will pass away or fall out of the voting pool. (If nobody over 65 had voted on Prop 8, it would have failed.) So it is just a matter of time before the homophobes give up on these things. I just think it could be less time with some PR effort.

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#92125 - 12/24/08 01:26 AM Re: We shall overcome [Re: pondering_it_all]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
Jeffro,

I guess I haven't been to many Gay Pride parades lately. (Wow, those look boring!)

Hopefully we can get full recognition of equal rights through the courts, and then go back to the good old days!

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#92131 - 12/24/08 02:01 AM Re: We shall overcome [Re: pondering_it_all]
stereoman Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 15646
Loc: Asheville, NC
In terms of gays being "just like us", I'd like to say that whatever the differences are, same gender marriage ought to be "just like" opposite gender marriage. Same commitments, same ceremonies, same rights, same responsibilities. If a couple wants something different in their relationship, they should call it something different - whether the couple is gay or straight.
_________________________
Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)


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#92133 - 12/24/08 02:10 AM Re: We shall overcome [Re: pondering_it_all]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Interesting turn to the conversation. There is a growing divide within the gay community about the identity-assimilation issue. I fall into the identity camp, preferring to use the word "queer" for those of any sexual orientation who live with less attention to convention and occupy much of their lives outside the mainstream. It is an alternative lifestyle.

Gay for me is a sexual identity term, not so much a lifestyle.

This is reflected in the annual parades. Many, especially younger, gays would rather the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, leather daddies, topless women and naked boys stay away. They want very much to be "just like you" except for what they do sexually.

I really enjoy the open display of exotic, rude and sexually explicit behavior. I like to always be expanding your horizons rather than conform to them.

I respect assimilates and only object when they ask me to change to suit their needs.

The parade I saw





Edited by Phil Hoskins (12/24/08 02:18 AM)
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#92142 - 12/24/08 03:44 AM Re: We shall overcome [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12006
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins

I really enjoy the open display of exotic, rude and sexually explicit behavior. I like to always be expanding your horizons rather than conform to them.


I think we should not tinker with each other's horizons
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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