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#303942 - 11/15/17 05:53 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
After latest shooting, let's talk about mental health instead of you-know-what - opinion, ChiTrib.
Quote:
I'm m not going to bring up gun control.

We’re still under the “too soon” rule from last week’s massacre during Sunday service at a Texas church, so it’s certainly too soon to talk about guns in connection to Tuesday’s shooting spree.
....
So let’s just say mental health is a factor when it comes to murderous rampages.
....
What I don’t understand, then, is why the people talking about mental health in the wake of a mass shooting never seem to do anything to make our mental health care system better.
....
Tragedy. Outrage. Too soon. Mental health reform. Nothing. Repeat.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303945 - 11/16/17 03:39 AM Re: Gun Control [Re: joebialek123]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7094
Loc: North San Diego County
How about we talk about domestic violence? Just about every mass shooter had several domestic violence complaints before his shooting spree. If we would just take every domestic violence complaint seriously and go take their guns and put them on the "no buy" list, an awful lot of these killings could be avoided.

It's also completely compatible with 2nd Amendment court decisions: You have a right to guns, unless you are crazy or a criminal. Even if domestic aggressors don't serve a day in jail, they should still go on the list and lose their guns. And losing your guns means you can't live in a house with somebody else's guns too, so no fair just transferring them to you wife.

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#303964 - 11/16/17 09:00 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: joebialek123]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Mental health, yep, someday? I can remember when Washington state took care of mental health. After the movie "The Snake Pit" there was a huge outcry about how gov institutions were treating their mentally ill inmates. Washington state had the solution, Shut down most of the state facilities and establish local mental healthcare facilities. The plan was to have each and every community install their own mental healthcare facility to take care of their own mentally ill. GREAT plan! Approximately 3 communities actually went along with this one. Port Angeles was one of the communities that did that. Now our 3rd largest employer are the mental health workers. They have several houses full of those with mental problems. I worked across from their main public facility and watched, every year, when they would bring in a bus, load it up with the patients who had been determined to be ready for re-integration in society. They load the bus, with these people, and then take them either to Seattle or Tacoma, open the door and wish everybody good luck. (its no accident that over 30% of the homeless are mentally ill). I have no idea what other states are doing but, I suspect, it will be similar.

What we are talking about is, basically, OUR gov's decision to ignore the mentally ill and, I guess, hope that not too many go off the rails and start killing folks (and, at the same time, seemingly making sure that the insane can find the guns to do the job). I once proposed that meds for the insane be made addictive to assure that the meds get taken. That was shut down because they feared they would not be able to deal with all the addicts if they found a cure for mental illness (really!). So, basically, we are all on our own and gov has, basically, just given up on mental illness. Just another example, I think, why The United States is not exactly peopled with kindly, caring, give a sh*t folks. (we are, basically, a nation of deplorables)

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#303973 - 11/17/17 01:02 AM Re: Gun Control [Re: joebialek123]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7094
Loc: North San Diego County
I'm not too worried about the mentally ill homeless. Usually the only people they hurt is themselves and it must be exceedingly rare that one of them has a gun or can afford to buy a box of ammo.

I worry much more about your angry and armed man who picks fights with everyone they perceive as weaker. There are LOADs of these aholes out there and often they can attract wives and girlfriends (who almost all are attracted to "tough guys"). In this population, some fraction will be so uncontrolled they will get in trouble for domestic abuse. And in that population, there is some smaller fraction who will lose it and kill somebody. And it that population there is an even smaller fraction that will become mass shooters.

So where does society intervene? It would be really safe and easy to say everybody charged with domestic abuse loses their 2nd Amendment rights (which IS federal law). But then you have to actually send police to go collect their guns, which is very dangerous for police. In fact, this is their most dangerous type of call!

Most every sentence document for domestic abuse, felony assault, etc. includes something that says: "You are not allowed to possess guns." But the courts usually just takes the criminal's word for it, that they have none! What we need to do is require a police search of a felon's residence BEFORE he is released and a strict 5 year sentence for any felon who does possess guns or anyone who helps them possess guns.

And that has to include anybody who makes a private sale of a gun to a felon. No more private sale loophole! If you want to make a private sale, you have to check the federal list, be sure of the buyer's identity, etc. or face hard time in prison. The safest option would be just to go through a licensed dealer for a few bucks.

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#303993 - 11/17/17 07:21 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: joebialek123]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
If you take a good hard look at the mass shooters you will find that most have been, or are, under the care of a specialist in mental problems. The guy who shot up the movie theater, for instance, was under a practitioner who was a specialist in the use of prescribed medicine to deal with the mental problems. Oh - and the guy was not taking his meds. You will find this is a regular problem with these people (shooters).

The actual problem, however, is the simple fact that the gun lobby, an artifact created by the gun manufacturers, has figured out a legal way to blackmail our elected class. This is, of course, the same elected class who continues to claim they are acting in the best interest of the citizenry. Until we get that one under control all this whining is for naught and simply displays the inability of the American voting public's inability to act in its own self best interest. In other words, if we can't stop ourselves from the regular self slaughter by guns then, I think, that says a lot about just who and what we are and its not exactly a pretty picture.

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#303995 - 11/17/17 08:56 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8631
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Two churchgoers accidentally shot in church while discussing the importance of bringing guns to church...
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#303998 - 11/17/17 11:37 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: joebialek123]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7094
Loc: North San Diego County
Sooner or later, "Good Guy with a Gun" will probably work, just as a matter of percentages. Even if it's just 1% effective, it will work sometime and then the NRA will go nuts.

Of course until then, pulling out your gun is a good way to be shot by the police. Somebody waving a gun around at a crime scene looks just like a shooter to them.

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#304006 - 11/18/17 12:54 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
"good guys" with guns give bad guys with guns cover. Two incidents subsequent to the Texas church shooting demonstrate that:
Quote:
A mass shooting in a Colorado Walmart store seemed to prove that point only days before the Texas massacre. A number of shoppers in the Walmart were armed, but the presence of their weapons complicated police efforts to locate the shooter, prolonging the manhunt by several hours.

Just as the presence of guns hindered police efforts in Colorado, the accident in Tellico Plains sparked a firestorm of misinformation. Witnesses reported panic spread through the church after the gun went off, leading some to believe there was an active shooter on the premises, something also assumed by the dispatcher who answered the call. It took nearly an hour for law enforcement to realize the nature of the incident — at which point nearby high schools and hospitals were on lockdown.
Think Progress.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304048 - Yesterday at 08:17 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
A First Look at 2018’s New Guns - American Rifleman.
Quote:

Every Fall the National Association of Sporting Goods Wholesalers (NASGW) hosts a trade show that offers attendees a sneak peek at some of the products slated for release in the new year. With national firearm sales leveling off, thanks to a gun-friendly administration taking office this year, manufacturers are dusting off some new and interesting models that have been tucked away for a time such as this.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304050 - Yesterday at 09:51 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: joebialek123]
rporter314 Online   content
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6208
Loc: Highlands, Tx
"The Gun is an Innocent Victim" - Wayne LaPierre

"People Kill People" - anon

so if people did not have guns, then people would not be able to kill people with guns. While that sounded better in my head than it appears on the internet, the point is neither statement is valid. Guns were invented to kill people i.e people and guns are inextricably connected and can not be separated by pale excuses from the NRA for mass killings of innocent real victims.
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ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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