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#311203 - 02/25/19 02:29 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8299
Loc: North San Diego County
Solar power is terrific, but unfortunately the sun does not shine at night. In addition to solar arrays you need either some way to store energy or generate it at night. That's called "the base load" in the energy industry. An idea that's not bad is to pump water to a high reservoir when you have excess power and then run it to a lower reservoir through dynamos when you need power. The industry does do that in the few places that can accommodate that topographically. Another idea is batteries, but they are horribly inefficient, expensive, and require a lot of maintenance and replacement.

So how do you solve the base load problem? The greenest way would be the new nuclear reactor designs. They use very abundant input materials, are safe by design, produce little waste, and don't make stuff for building bombs. The Thorium Molten Salt design uses the Thorium we have by the megaton in mine tailings. The standing wave design uses the depleted Uranium we also have in the megatons from enriching Uranium for reactors and bombs for the last 75 years. So they actually consume radioactive waste. They are like building reactors that run on poop. Something we already have and wish we didn't.

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#311206 - 02/25/19 03:32 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14686
Loc: Florida
Eventually someone may crack the nuclear nut. It could be two, ten, or 200 years away. We have to make some immediate headway in reducing fossil fuel use. I'd be okay with it if some fossil fuel powered plants ran a few hours at night to make up the difference.

But why are they running at all during the day when solar and wind could make all we need?

Just a thought... West Virginia's collapsed economy was based on coal mining, they have vast pieces of land destroyed by coal mining. Even more vast pieces of land owned by mining companies that will never be mined.

Let's cover those acres with solar panels and a few wind turbines on top of every mountain that's been blasted flat. The entire state could become a power plant and the coal miners would build and maintain the system...Solar mining as it were...

Again, Gates' money would be better spent on real green projects.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#311210 - 02/25/19 03:06 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6674
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Did I read a headline which says oil companies want the administration to pass legislation to stop investors from pushing for green energy? So we have an administration which is pro oil, anti-green, and lobbied by oil against green and climate ... it would require a seismic shift in voter thinking i.e. changing the ignorance of the Trump Base.

But keep punching away ... education is a long term process
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#311212 - 02/25/19 03:29 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14686
Loc: Florida
I don't know if willful ignorance can be educated away...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#311235 - 02/26/19 01:47 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8969
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Ecosocialist roundtable
Quote:
A Call to Critically Support the Green New Deal

Brad Hornick

For many decades, scientists have warned that the window for the kind of widespread economic, political, and policy reforms required to avert ecological catastrophe is rapidly closing. Warnings from the scientific community concerning the threat of ecological collapse are universally built around the concepts of “thresholds” and “tipping points” which explicitly refer to threats to the physical preconditions that permit life in the entire biosphere.

These warnings posit a window of opportunity that if not responded to in a dramatic and urgent manner, will be surpassed. The stakes mark a divide between the remaining potential for the exercise of purposeful human action versus the extinguishment of that potential, after which an adequate collective response to ecological crisis becomes perfectly irrelevant as more extreme changes to the climate system become self-generating, locked-in, and irreversible.

So far, authoritative scientific evidence has done nothing to move the world away from a “business-as-usual” socio-economic model that is inherently destructive. “Faster-than-expected” impacts from global warming such as extreme heat and cold, drought, floods, fire, etc. have been met with promises of technological innovation and narrow policy instruments disciplined by neo-liberal capitalism – rather than more profound political engagement and proactive emergency planning.

Today’s political and moral calculus could not be more clear. We can either “give-in” to the ruling class that guarantees a world firmly on course for imminent, intractable and catastrophic ecological and social crisis, or we can begin to recognize our predicament, mobilize, constructively critique, support, and protect the vision for an unprecedented collective response commensurable to the threat.

The challenge is an immense one. Emergency response to a crisis means there is no longer any time for gradual, incremental or “non-disruptive” reductions in emissions. Meeting the obligations that many scientists now say are critical, getting to “net zero carbon” virtually instantaneously, requires more than an immediate shut-down the planet’s fossil fuel industries.

It also implies a radical retrenchment or collapse of the dominant industries and infrastructure based upon fossil fuel production, including automobiles, aircraft, shipping, petrochemical, synthetic fabrics, construction, agribusiness, industrial agriculture, packaging, plastic production (disposables economy), and the war industries.

Such massive structural changes in our industrial base will only be productively managed if society develops the resiliency and flexibility to withstand the challenges of social transformation. Most importantly, this requires an active participation of organized labor and environmentalists to ensure all people continue to have work, food, shelter and other basic needs met.

Political organizing around the Green New Deal represents a potential breakthrough for many – a recognition of the magnitude and urgency of the social and political changes that are required for civilizational survival. Inevitably, this call to action will require popular mobilization to compensate for the power of intransigent vested corporate and political interests.

The GND stakes new ground and proposes new battle-lines for the climate justice movement to authentically challenge the priorities of capitalism over people and the planet. It will be denounced as “radical,” “idealistic,” and even “socialist” by those intent on ratcheting-up the ideological battle. Supporters and constructive critics of the GND should prepare themselves to unapologetically lead the charge.
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#311238 - 02/26/19 06:26 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16673
Study: Green New Deal Will Rob and Kill Your Entire Family (Splinter). This is the level of discourse we can expect from the right.

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#311246 - 02/26/19 07:28 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: Greger]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6674
Loc: Highlands, Tx
don't shatter my dreams and hopes for a future where I wear sunshades
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#311247 - 02/26/19 07:34 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6674
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I may be wrong or more likely unaware, but it seems to me we are on the precipice mankind has never seen. We may have a real opportunity to actually manage our future.

Imagine the first men looking to the heavens with arms outraised proclaiming loudly that they would do something to manage their environment. Imagine the world they would have left us all these generations later.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#311261 - 02/27/19 12:39 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: rporter314]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13627
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Did I read a headline which says oil companies want the administration to pass legislation to stop investors from pushing for green energy?


What?? How does one make it illegal to invest in green power?
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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