Originally Posted By: issodhos
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
No one is discussing anarchism, 2wins. As to alternative communities, it is irrelevant whether they fail or succeed. Just as voluntary communes currently are free to form and free to fail in America, so to would voluntary communities within a libertarian-influenced America. As to shared agreement (laws), it would also be a core element of a libertarian-influenced society.

Wouldn't the failure of a city such as New York or Los Angeles be pretty catastrophic? I guess it depends upon what you mean by "fail", but if you mean the breaking apart of the economic, legal and social system, allowing the "freedom" of all to participate in forming a new system, then the costs of failure could be incalculable.

In the manner in which the term is being used, neither New York nor Los Angeles are "alternative" communities, Phil. Nor am I speaking of a "breaking apart" of our current system. A libertarian-oriented nation would require gradual and incremental change of the society we currently endure. For example, using the current system to persuade enough citizens to support the decriminalization of recreational drug usage. That one action alone would be a boon to personal liberty -- reducing incarceration rates, destroyed lifes, police license to intrude, corruption, and huge reductions in penal, policing, and judiciary costs.

I did not see that you had limited your comment to alternative communities, so I wasn't attempting to raise a different topic. In the same sense that Los Angeles, etc, are failed cities, I think it could be said that every part of society but for a very few very small groupings -- and we would differ as to which those were -- is a failed community.

That is the nature of the human experience, but some failures have a bigger impact than others, and some with respect to more people. For example, for a commune of 20 or even 200 people fails, the impact is far less than if police, fire, health services, garbage, highway construction and repair, etc. all were allowed to fail in the major metro areas.

As for a gradual "freeing" of such a megalopolis, aren't the devils in the details? I think you might even get the Obama administration to use that mantra to cover their wealth manipulations.

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
It always seems cavalier to me to take away from the people the right to impact the venue they share, whether it is a township or a nation, by the exercise of the right of the community to take some of the spoils of all that freedom from those who have gained most from it; take for the purpose of common defense, both against armies, nations or rogue elements and against failures of other kinds, such as the health, economic policies to best enhance the chance for all to prosper.

You will need to be more specific and more definitive as to what you mean here before I can hope to understand it enough to attempt and answer, Phil.

Well I do not want to give specific instances of what I consider to be appropriate "takings", because that would divert this thread into a discussion of those suggestions, and I am not interested in this thread going in that direction.

 Originally Posted By: issodhos
Ps. A side note: I think New York and LA, among other major cities (Detroit comes to mind), are already, and have for quite some time, been "failed" communities that actually would, relatively speaking, conform to Checkerboard's Somalia comparison. Many are just slow or unable to recognize it because they view such dysfunctional constructs as being normal.

I like to think of our world as the light/energy projected from an unknowable source in an infinity of directions, within which we are the temporary scrim of existence. In that sense of the ball rolling downhill, everything is a step ahead or behind failure, again, to me that is the essence of the human experience.

Now if you want to discuss specifically about the failure or non-failure of one or more cities, I would ask that it be done on a different thread. It is also possible to discuss such failures in the more abstract context as it might apply to the relative effectiveness of libertarian principles to deal with such failures.
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