Capitol Hill Blue
Posted By: jgw Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/08/21 05:37 PM
There is a kindofa strange thing developing. The over 65 crowd has done a pretty good job getting their vaccines. Now, however, we have a new covid that seems to be only attacking kids from grade school to less than 40. This is, pretty much, the same group that has been responsible for a lot of the rises in infections and now Covid seems to have targeted that same group. Given that they have, from the getgo, as a group, fought like hell over masks and vaccines they just may be on the cusp of their rewards. I saw on the news, last night, that Seattle hospitals are starting to get overwhelmed with long haulers (they have now banned that title as infers its a real problem, which it is!) Most of those haulers presenting were younger who had a quick, painless, acquaintance, with covid and are now experiencing a no fun acquaintance and they were, pretty much, infected before the new version happened. Now I wonder what happens if covid really goes to work on the younger crowd to the point where there are not many of the younger crowd around anymore and we get a society based on the elderly.

Just a thought (and kinda mean spirited at that)
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/08/21 10:36 PM
With the variants so far, it doesn't make most long haulers infertile. It just makes then feel like crap. If they spend a lot of time in bed, there may be no lack of pregnancies! It seems about half of long haulers feel much better a couple of weeks after they get vaccinated, suggesting some low-grade gut infection with virus hanging around. Some researchers have pointed out that corona viruses are all chronic bat gut infections. Maybe those bats don't feel very good, but how would you tell?
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/09/21 04:50 PM
I am gong by who is going to the hospital and who is not. Those who are vaccinated tend to do neither and the new variant is doing, for the most part, children. That being the case there are, now, going to be more seniors surviving than children. I haven't given much thought to fertility. I do know that the United States, right now, has a rate of fertility that cannot provide enough folks to support what we have and we need many of those trying to get in.
Posted By: Greger Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/09/21 05:06 PM
It's still only a handful of deaths among the young and healthy and those folks will be getting vaccinated soon...don't get your hopes up that all the milenials are going to die and leave you in peace.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/09/21 05:37 PM
I am hoping that they are going to get an education which means they will start with masks and common sense instead of their current behavior which is not good for all of us and, now, especially not them. There are also other problems that have come up. I have had both my covid shots (in February). At one point I thought that should be it. Now, however, it seems that something like 175 folks who have had their shots have now been re-infected. I am not sure, exactly, what that means, other than these vaccinations are not exact just like the flu vaccines and all the others we are used to. This one behaves differently. I expect that, eventually, gov is going to make some announcements about this one.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/09/21 09:41 PM
Don't forget, the best Covid vaccines are 95% effective. That leave 5% who do still get symptoms of reinfection. Most vaccines do NOT prevent reinfection. They just make your immune system well prepared in case you do get infected. I suspect people get reinfected all the time, but have no symptoms because their immune system wipes out the virus quickly. If you are vaccinated, it behooves you to make sure you are never exposed to such a high viral load you get symptoms. We can do that by following all the sensible public health guidelines we have known for the last year.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/10/21 05:18 PM
I was exposed and told to goto the hospital and get tested. I went to the hospital and they said for me to come back in five days. Its strange. The same thing happened to a friend of mine but he was told, by his doctor, not to worry as he had his shots over a month ago. I will go back in on Monday. I have been wanting to get a test just to see if my vaccination took. Now I will find out, one way or another.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/11/21 01:48 AM
Probably not. I doubt they will test you for antibodies. That would say if your vaccine worked.
You might get an antigen test to see if you have an active infection. But probably not if you have no symptoms.

I would just quarantine so you can't infect anybody else. Everybody you live with should quarantine as well. The normal course of Covid-19 is:

Day 0: Exposure.
Day 3: Virus level gets high enough to be detected by PCR.
Day 4: Virus level gets high enough to be detected by antigen testing. You become contagious.
Day 5: Symptoms may develop.
Day 9: Virus level drops so you are no longer contagious. Antigen tests go negative.
Day 15 (or longer): PCR tests go negative, because they show positive for dead virus fragments.

So you can see from the timeline, quarantine is indicated from 3 days after exposure until 9 days after exposure.
Of course, some cases can take longer to progress.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/11/21 06:40 PM
Well, tomorrow I go in for the test. I will ask for antibody test as well. Probably won't get it but I can try. As far as quarantine is concerned I won't be changing from how I live which is one big quarantine for a long time (I am not real social). I have no symptoms. When I saw the friend who was infected I was wearing a mask and was at least 6 feet away. Both my wife and myself have had our shots and that was over a month ago. Neither of us have any signs. I am not real concerned.

I'll see how it works out tomorrow and then I will await the results with interest.

I'll tell you a little story. I live directly across from the community swimming pool. I can look down on them and see what is going on anytime I want. The swimming pool is a busy place and they have rules, etc. Some of them are along the stay separated/don't bunch up/etc. The fact is that they bunch up all the time, the kids play with each other and are also close. When the swim team is there they bunch up and get talked to. Basically, one would think that the swimming pool is a real center for infectious behavior. Neither my wife nor myself go to the pool, goto restaurants or bars - don't want any covid problems. However, all of that being said, as far as I can tell there has not been a single instance where anybody has been infected by going to the swimming pool. Oh, I should also mention that the pool does not smell of chemicals, including chlorine which one can't even smell (the rebuilt all of that, and the pool, just last year). Anyway, I have asked the county health folks how that can be and they had no answer, other than to say that, as far as they knew, there has been no problem with Covid and the pool. Somebody told me that the air, in the swimming pool kills all stuff covid (I have no idea what that is based on. I asked but got no answer/
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/11/21 11:47 PM
As long as nobody in the contagious period ever shows up at the pool, then everybody is safe. I suppose they could be using ozone for sanitization, and that is better at sterilizing the water. But all the water in the pool acts like really good ventilation by diluting any virus that gets in the water. I suspect somebody infectious could swim and then the water would be perfectly safe. If they have good ventilation above the pool, that makes it about 20 times safer than a small room with poor ventilation.

Fresh air is why outdoor dining is WAY safer than indoors.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/12/21 07:30 PM
The have great ventilation. The life guards all wear masks but them that swim, or play in the water, don't. I asked the county health folk and they said it might have something to do with how the water is treated but didn't really know. They did know that no infections have been reported.

Another mystery, I guess..........
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/14/21 12:16 AM
It could well be that people with even a mostly asymptomatic infection just don't feel like swimming. Port Angeles is rather like being on an island, so cases may be rarer than in Seattle.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/14/21 07:29 PM
I got my vaccines a couple of month ago (moderna). I have often wondered if it took. The only way to tell that is to get a test that will tell you if you have got the anti-bodies. I have been asking around but nobody really knows where to go to get an antibody test. My thought was to get the test to see if it took. I am not even sure my thinking is right on this one. Say Moderna vaccine is 90% effective. If you get a test, after you have been vaccinated and time has passed, and there are no antibodies that would mean that I would have been in the 10% were it didn't take. That being the case does that mean I need to get another test?

Its odd, everybody says the vaccines work in 90% to 98%. So, if everybody got tested, and found that their vaccine didn't work it would seem to me that the right thing to do would be to get another vaccine shot?

If I am right then why does nobody seems to even want to be tested and getting another shot to make sure you are taken care of just doesn't seem to be possible anyway?
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/14/21 09:15 PM
Because that's not how it works. The vaccine makes antibodies and primes your T-cells to expect the viral antigen, both. Even if you had some weird response and failed to make antibodies, your T-cells would protect you. The T-cells are part of the immediate response to infection. It takes a while to make antibodies, so some people got over the infection before they made antibodies. In that case, antibody production can stop. But the vaccinations cause a much better immune response than mild infections.

Unless you have some condition that wipes out your immune system, or are taking immunosuppressives to wipe it out, you will respond. People who get infections after vaccination do not have no or poor response. They have a high viral load at the exposure. It takes a while to kill off all the virus, and then their immune system over-responds to dead virus fragments. The more virus you have to begin with, the more virus fragments are left floating around, and the worse symptoms. The immune system response takes a certain amount of time, so starting with a billion viruses leaves a lot more fragments than starting with a thousand.

That's one reason why mask wearing in public is so useful, even with a less than perfect mask: Lower viral load.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/15/21 06:11 PM
Thank you. Up here they are reporting the number of those who have got the vaccine are getting infected. There is somewhere around 500 and some who have had that happen. All they say is that those are people who were infected because coverage is something between 90% and 98% and those are the losers. Nothing more, nothing less. They are, basically I think, lazy when it comes to explaining stuff. Betcha you could get a job if you wanted it! <G>
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/15/21 06:22 PM
You got it right about Port Angeles, it really is kinda like an island. Many move here because its fairly nice nice, especially if you like being in the woods. Then they want to go someplace and realize just how isolated we actually are (that always gives me some amusement). We have two roads out. The one that goes west gets us to the ocean and the other to Tacoma/Seattle. However, when you want to go to Seattle its a something like a 3+ hour drive. In a straight line we are about 85 miles from Seattle. We used to be able to take a ferry to Victoria as we are only about 18 miles from Victoria across the water but that has been shut down, now, for over a year.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/15/21 08:14 PM
My wife and I spent a vacation a couple of decades ago in the area. We drove both of those roads all the way around the peninsula, hiked in the park, and even went to a story-telling festival in Port Angeles we happened to notice. Then we took the ferry to Victoria. Went to hike Mt. Rainier and spent some time in Seattle. Beautiful place. That's the kind of vacation I love: Just wander around with no fixed schedule or itinerary, and get a feel for the place.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/16/21 05:27 PM
A good thing! We survive from visitors. We used to have something like 8 mills - now we have two. Its odd, our unemployment is always around 6% and that is what we have now too. There are help wanted signs all over town as well. I am told that everybody is getting 600 a week for doing nothing. No idea if that's right or not but there is something stopping people from working. There is a place close to me that has been advertising for a driver for over 2 months and nobody is even stopping to ask.

Anyway, it seems that real estate sales are going gangbusters as I kinda watch that one and most sales are higher than the asking price. Another oddity is that I have been assured that our population remains the same and there doesn't seem to be any construction going on (housing).

Oh, this might need a new topic but:
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/20/21 10:18 PM
Back on topic: It was announced recently that despite vaccine-generated antibodies having lower efficacy against some virus variants, vaccine-generated T-cell response has activity against up to 52 different locations on the SARS-COV2 virus. This is why almost nobody vaccinated gets seriously ill from new strains. Antibody response is immediate, but T and B-cells take a bit longer to wipe out the virus, and even longer to make new antibodies. They may be able to kill the virus without even getting to the antibody production phase. But if they did, those antibodies would be tuned to the variant causing the infection.

This is really good news, and bodes well for being able to end the pandemic. Of course, there are about 100 million susceptible people in the US, and about a billion in India, so the usual caution is needed. I heard that ultra-conservative virus-hoaxer Ted Nugent got it, and got it bad. Let's see if he gets long Covid. I guess he didn't have a helicopter to fly him to Walter Reed for an infusion of the latest Monoclonal Antibody cocktail.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/22/21 05:34 PM
I watched a couple of things on India yesterday. If they keep it up there are going to be a LOT fewer Indians! They showed Indians at religious outings, thousands of them, no masks and close together working hard, it seems, to die. There is a class of righteous right which are doing their level best to get to the Indian state of death if they had their way and, apparently, this includes themselves.

In both cases they have leaders that are simply not up to fixing the problem are are relying, perhaps, on 'special' knowledge which seems to come from "on high" one way or another. I also watched a couple of evangelical preachers who hate the vaccines and believe prayer will fix it all. Now if somebody could figure out a way to guard the rest of us from their 'spiritual', and liberty driven non-science alternative reality we could just write them off as unsavable and get on with our lives.

All that being said there is now something called a "Vaccine Passport". This, I suspect, will separate science believers from alternate reality folks. I think what will eventually happen is that Bars, and Restaurants and all the rest of places where groups go will restrict them that are welcome to them who have all their vaccines and alternate reality jerks will not be welcome. I also suspect that any bar or restaurant, etc. to which new infections can be traced will be shut down. That being the case such places will really like the Vaccine Passports as it will protect them and keep them open.

They are fighting like hell for the right to infect others but they will lose. When that starts to happen a lot of the alternate reality folks will give in just so they can get into a bar if nothing else. Its Really pretty simple. Create a passport that is official and says that you have been vaccinated and you are free from the virus (negative).
Posted By: Greger Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/23/21 04:26 PM
Florida's governor has banned anything resembling a Vaccine Passport.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/23/21 04:48 PM
He is really just protecting the right to not get vaccinated or wear a mask so that they can infect others. I also suspect that might change a bit over time.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/23/21 11:31 PM
I think he will change his mind when nobody from Florida can enter a federal building or get on a plane, bus, or train.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/24/21 09:37 AM
Many people are saying (to infringe on a King Kon kopyright) that De Santis is a PCMbot whose programming has a prime directive of vacuuming up enough Zombie votes to stay in office, and perhaps to advance to the position of Heir of Kon in the great and pointless Game of Power.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/24/21 05:28 PM
Those against the Vaccine Passport are not taking consideration of folks who have businesses that depend on groups of people. Right now, if somebody goes into their establishment, and gets covid they can then sue the owner of where that happened as they didn't do this than that and its open season for the ambulance chasers. With, however, the Vaccine Passport, they will be safe from most of those kinds of suits. That being the case those against are going to lose their battle to legalize their own lack of brains.

Vaccine Passports just make sense and they WILL happen! (and Pondering has it right!)
Posted By: Greger Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/25/21 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
I think he will change his mind when nobody from Florida can enter a federal building or get on a plane, bus, or train.

Not gonna happen so he won't have to change his mind.

The way things stand right now, no plane, bus or train company can require it in Florida. As per Florida law. If the US Government chooses to shut down operations in Florida it's on them, not him.

And I really don't think that's gonna you?
Posted By: Greger Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/25/21 04:10 PM
Vaccine Passports just make sense and they WILL happen! (and Pondering has it right!)

Maybe in a few localities but opposition to the concept will overpower it.

In a world of democrats PIA would have it right. But we don't live there.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/25/21 05:27 PM
I am not convinced that such a law can get past the courts. Businesses have a right to control those who they would serve (at least that's the way it used to be). The only exceptions have to do with picking on an individual group or race, etc. I don't think a group determined to put themselves, and others, at risk would qualify?
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/26/21 07:47 PM
Can you really get on a plane without a mask on in Florida? I keep reading stories about people getting banned from airlines, and arrested for trespassing when they refuse to follow mask requirements in private businesses. I think DeSantis's rules would only effect Florida state offices, if any of those got to court.
Posted By: Greger Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/27/21 12:21 AM
Of course not. D'ya think we're crazy? Mask rules are okay. Vaccination Passports are not.

It is now legal here to run over protesters if they get in your way too!
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/27/21 09:53 AM
But at the same time, if those protestors feel their life is threatened they can "stand their ground" and shoot the oncoming driver.

Actually, I would suggest all protestors carry bowling balls as they march. Anybody hits them, the bowling ball kills the driver.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/27/21 06:41 PM
I think your thought is about the laws that let people who run over marchers. I would be amazed if those were allowed to stand. If they do then its the beginning of really bad stuff. I can't even imagine what would be next. Perhaps having shooting contests amongst the non-marchers with the marchers as targets. On reflections how about car games like "Who can run over the most marchers" or a little game of "war" on the part of non-marchers. The TV folks would LOVE to cover such and the American public would watch with interest as well!
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/27/21 10:46 PM
This is so ridiculous it's actually funny:

Vaccinated Teachers Dangerous!

A private K-8 school in Florida (of course) has sent out a missive to all parents and staff that vaccinated teachers will not be permitted to have any student contact, and may be terminated. The co-founder believes some crazy conspiracy theory that vaccinated people can pass "something" to the unvaccinated, and damage their fertility.

She actually has that backwards: The UNVACCINATED can pass something to the students that can damage their hearts, lungs, brains, and other organs, or kill them. Surprise! It's the SARS-COV2 virus. Which is thousands of times more dangerous than any vaccine.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 04/28/21 05:34 PM
I watched that thing on TV last night. I just tried to find the letters the school sent out but they have gone away as they were wonderful! They managed get a about 14 things wrong in each letter sent! They are one of them 'special' schools for folks that can spend 30,000.00 a year to send their children there. Its pretty amazing. I forget how many kids they have but there were quite a few. What this means, to me, is that there is a rich kids school that, apparently, is teaching its students flat out lies and, on top of that, the parents of these poor kids are either incredibly ignorant, or know better but having your kid being lied to is better than them schools for the poor folks.

This is actually kinda good. Most of the time them rich kid's schools have the best administrators, teachers, etc. and give the rich kids a step ahead of everybody else. In this case the opposite is happening. I can only imagine what happens when the products of that school move on and find they have flat out been lied to!

Large scale, very public, pure loonacy! Great entertainment! Given all the publicity I wonder what the school will do when somebody gets to them with the facts. I doubt, very much, as that young girl who is in charge of the school will keep her job but, then, she probably will - these people are, uh, well, you know...........
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 05/05/21 07:09 AM
I'm seeing publications expressing doubt we will reach herd immunity in the US because of vaccine-resistance.

This is actually not true in the big picture: We will reach herd immunity when almost everybody is either infected or vaccinated. When people are either infected or vaccinated that usually activates their T-cells against up to 52 different segments of the spike protein. This is why vaccinated people do not get seriously ill from the variants. It would require many many mutations to let a variant escape those T-cells. When the T-cells do react against a variant, the immune system makes antibodies that are specific toward that variant!

About a third of people in the US have yet to be infected or vaccinated. Around 100 million people. If those people get infected with a more lethal variant, many will die. It's their choice. Covid-19 will never die out completely, because it's in the wild animal population all over the world. Even if symptomatic infection becomes rare, it's still going to infect the unprotected, like rabies or hantavirus. The only way to defeat it is to get vaccinated.

The good news is that one completed vaccination (1 or 2) is likely to protect almost everybody from serious illness for decades. The other good news is we can probably come up with mRNA vaccines for ebola and the other related viruses.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 05/07/21 05:16 AM
I think the concerted effort of Big Pharma, WHO, the FDA, etc. to spread disinformation about ivermectin is about to collapse: First it was just various foreigners claiming it worked against Covid-19. Then Dr. Paul Marik at East Virginia Medical School published a protocol they were using with great success, Then the Front Line Covid Critical Care Alliance started up with their promotion of the EVMS protocol with Dr. Kory testifying before a Senate committee (removed by YouTube!). Then Dr. Bean and Dr. John Campbell, two of the most prolific YouTube and social media posters both interviewed Dr. Kory about all the outrageous behavior of WHO, the FDA, and the journals ignoring a pile of random controlled drug trials in which ivermectin was far far more effective than remdesivir. Now Dr. John Campbell had a YouTube video about a study in India that found two doses of ivermectin protected health care workers at 83% efficacy compared to the non-ivermectin group in preventing Covid infections. He also showed the censorship he gets from Facebook whenever he features papers about ivermectin.

The problem for the people who want ivermectin to go away, is that Dr. John Campbell is one of the most popular YouTube channels, and other social media channels on Covid information in the world! It's getting obvious that there is some hidden agenda here, akin to the CDC telling us not to wear masks at the start of the pandemic.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 05/07/21 08:07 PM
I'm fully vaxxed on May 9, 2021 - two weeks after my last jab on 04/24/21. smile
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 05/09/21 12:55 AM
>fully vaxxed

Party like it's 2020!
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 05/12/21 06:30 AM
This is worth watching:

Micfhael Lewis Interview

Katie Couric interviewing Michael Lewis about his book on the pandemic, and the experts who actually knew what was going on and what we should have done. And why we didn't...

He agrees with a lot of the crap I have posted about: Like doing nothing until your year-long random blind drug trial is completed , ignoring stuff doctors actually caring for patients say works.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 05/18/21 02:32 AM
Dr. John Campbell reports from the UK that the VAST majority of Covid patients now in the hospital qualified for a vaccination, but refused to take it. He also says the India strain is well on it's way to become the dominant strain in England, apparently spreading better than the previous Variant of Concern the Kent variant. Both variants are in the US.

Some good news: He says the researchers at Oxford have lab evidence the vaccines work against the India variant. So the bottom line: Get vaccinated as soon as you can. Worse variants are coming, or are already here.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 05/18/21 02:50 AM
Wired article about the air pollution experts, epidemiologists, and physicists who were worried about airborne spread right from the beginning:

60 year old Scientific Screwup

WHO and CDC (and thus everybody else) claimed the larger particle size of droplets meant you just needed to stay 6 feet away and you would be safe. But that's based on 60 year old mainstream thoughts on TB spread. Very early on some people thought TB could also spread via sub-5 micron particles that can float on air for hours in enclosed spaces with poor ventilation. Took decades, but the medical establishment came around. That's why we have isolation positive pressure wards for TB patients. CDC and WHO based their recommendations on that 60 year old TB data, without looking at the latest correction (ie 1950!). So just lately they have announced that you can catch it inside, just by breathing air from active spreaders even if you are quite some distance away.

But we already knew this from contact tracing reports about a wedding where the bride and groom table all caught it, adjacent tables caught it less, and the next tables over caught very little. All tables were at least 6 feet apart.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/07/21 03:01 AM
FDA is doing something stupid again: They say nobody should check their antibody titres after vaccination because some of the available antibody tests check for nucleocapsid antibodies, and you only develop them if you had the virus. The mRNA vaccines are both against spike protein, so those will give you a negative nucleocapsid antibody test despite being vaccinated.

But both nucleocapsid and spike antibody tests are available. I remember when the nucleocapsid test came out and doctors were so happy they could tell the difference between infection immunity and vaccine immunity. And I just read a story about an immunosuppressed transplant surgeon with a heart transplant, who checked his antibody level (presumably with a spike antibody test) after two mRNA vaccines and found he had a minimal response. He got a third vaccination with J&J and then tested as immunized.

So just because such testing would require a brain cell or two to get the right test, FDA goes for the least common denominator and figures we are all morons, so we should avoid proper medicine because we might get confused.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/12/21 01:56 AM
Since I was so immuno-compromised by my MS drug back in 2019, my neurologist told me to stop taking it or I might die. I got my two Moderna vaccines finishing the second about three months ago, so I thought it prudent to check and see if my immune system had recovered enough for the vaccines to be effective. I asked my GP doc to order tests for Covid antibodies and a detailed test of my lymphocytes. My lymphocyte test came back and said my CD4 T-cells were still about 25% lower than the low end of the normal range. More worrying, my Covid antibody test came back negative.

There are two Covid antibody tests: The nucleocapsid antibody test will only give you positive results if you had the virus. The spike test will give you positive results if you had the virus or had a vaccine. So I asked my doc if that was a nucleocapsid test. He replied (a few days later) that he didn't know, but it was strange and he could get me a third vaccination. I then asked his staff to call their lab and ask them. A few days later they said the lab told them "There is no way to know.", which is obviously BS.

So rather than screw around with them, I went to Quest Diagnostics and got my own spike antibody test for $75. Two days later I had my results: I had such a high level of Covid spike antibodies it was over 20 times what they would report as a positive response!

I let my doc know their test was nucleocapsid and if he had any immunocompromised patients who wanted to check their vaccine response, the Quest test was quite reasonable. He just sent me a note saying he just found that out talking with another physician, and sorry for the confusion. Dr. Griffon on TWIV noted the other day that the FDA is still recommending nobody test their vaccine response, but he also said a lot of doctors are ignoring that!
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/12/21 07:35 PM
I tried to get a test to see if my vaccine worked and failed. Nobody up here, it seems, will do that without a doctor telling them to. Seems to be a secret. I have no problems, just wanted to know and I guess I just surrendered.

So far, however, I don't have covid (If I get it I die!)
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/15/21 01:30 AM
You might try:

Olympic Personal Growth Center
390 E Cedar St, Sequim, WA 98382 360-681-8463

Ask them if they draw blood for a Quest spike antibody test. Quest has their own doctors that are included in the price (<$80).
If they won't do it, you can look at the Quest Diagnostics website. There are several others but they are a longer distance away.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/15/21 04:09 AM
I read a very good article today: SARS-COV2 is not going anywhere. It has too many wild animal and pet reservoirs, not to mention all the asymptomatic carriers walking around with it. Even people vaccinated can catch it and walk around with no symptoms, but still spread it. So everybody in the US (indeed in the world) is going to get immunized, one way or another. The safe way is with a tested and authorized vaccine that kills less than 2 per million people. (At worst, and maybe actually zero.) The other way is by the worst vaccine ever, that kills about 20,000 per million of the people who get it. It's 1000s of times more dangerous than any man-made vaccine, and besides killing >600,000 people in the US so far, it maims a lot more people and leaves them sick for months. It is the virus itself.

You will get one of these, if you have not already. Which one is up to you.
Posted By: Greger Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/15/21 03:06 PM
Yeah, but you'll get chipped and magnetized so you can be traced by the government if you let them put that fake vaccine in your arm!

Problem is, you can't fix stupid. And not enough of them will die to effect a Darwinist solution.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/16/21 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by Greger
Problem is, you can't fix stupid. And not enough of them will die to effect a Darwinist solution.
That right there is the root of the problem with Darwinism. It don't have a useful application to humans.
Posted By: Greger Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/16/21 01:52 PM
Darwin works far too slowly...

Perhaps if we paid him a living wage...?
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/17/21 12:29 AM
not enough of them will die to effect a Darwinist solution

We actually don't know that yet. Anti-vaxxers are all highly concerned about the [imagined] long-term effects of vaccination, but the long-term effects of infection are very likely far more serious. Immediately, we see a LOT of long-haulers, a number of kids with MISC, and who knows what heart damage and lung scarring is going to do a lot of virus victims. Doctors at Ohio State University found signs of cardiomyopathy in about 40% of student athletes who had recovered from asymptomatic or mild cases. That can't be good! And they were all young and very healthy to begin with! What that does to the average WalMart shopper is not going to be pretty. Practically, it means a lot of Trump supporters can expect a curtailed life expectancy. I would not be surprised if we see an asbestos-like chronic post-covid continuing health expenditure in the trillions for decades.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/24/21 06:38 PM
Why do we allow this? Politics always overrules public health?

Judge Blocks CDC Cruise Ship Rules

On one side we have the CDC with all their expertise on communicable disease and scientific planning, and on the other side we have Ron DeSantis and the Florida-based cruise ship companies. CDC comes up with rules that could make cruise ships relatively safe, and politics overrules them. And not even smart politics. The first American cruise since the pandemic started actually had two passengers who went positive for the virus once they were underway!
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/26/21 05:12 PM
I think that was the one that also had 8 crew members with positives as well. I also suspect this meant that those two were not vaccinated. I am having more and more problems with feeling bad about those with no vaccinations that get infected.

Oh, I also note that they are currently debating whether seniors should get booster shots. The current options are, Yes, No and Maybe! (at least they are trying all the bases). I have been trying to get an antibody test just to make sure my shots worked (apparently there may be problems with seniors and shots)
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/26/21 11:20 PM
Just call up Quest Diagnostics. They have blood drawing centers all over the US. For about $75 they have a doctor to order the test, draw your blood, and run a spike antibody test. That's the test you need to tell if your vaccines are working.

But the vaccines work pretty damned well. I don't think anybody needs to check unless they have immunosuppression like after a transplant or autoimmune disease. Researchers tested vaccinated people who were immunosuppressed after transplants. Many had SARS-COV2 antibodies already. Another bunch did respond well to a third vaccine. The ones with no T-cells at all did not. They would do well if they got Monoclonal Antibody Cocktail at the first sign of infection, but it's not cheap. But transplants are not cheap, either. Maybe saving a transplant patient is worth the cost.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/27/21 05:33 PM
I suspect that we will be getting boosters before long which should do the job. Don't know when, not sure why, but its coming!
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/28/21 08:27 PM
Well, so much for the "lab-leak theory":

Australian Virologist Was At The Wuhan Lab in November 2019

She was working at the Wuhan virology lab, socialized with all the other virologists. saw nobody sick, and later tested negative for exposure. She also said that if anybody had Covid-19, she would have caught it, because they all spent time together.

Laurie Garrett, author of The Coming Plague was on TWIV (YouTube) last week. She was right in the middle of the SARS1 outbreak in China, and has spent years researching and writing about emerging viruses. She said EVERY SINGLE ONE of these events has had some sort of conspiracy theory that "explained" it. Usually involving the CIA! Like all conspiracy theories, they involve Rube Goldberg extra mechanisms that make them highly unlikely from the get go. Like hundreds or thousands of people that would have to keep secrets, or certain government entities doing something for no reason at all.

Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is where you should start investigating.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 06/29/21 05:15 PM
I have noticed that there are a LOT of folks interested in where covid came from as a political rather than scientific question. Evidently it gives them comfort that they have an opportunity to blame somebody for covid instead of mother nature. Its really kinda interesting.

American, right now, is desperate to lay the blame but not exactly fix any problems. I wonder when its going to stop and we get back to taking care of business instead of the constant baloney we are currently being plagued with. right now, however, the loons, apparently, are in charge.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/01/21 04:19 AM
The virologists on TWIV say the media doomsday stuff about the Delta variant is mostly BS. All the talk about R0 ignores the fact that it depends heavily on human behavior. If we all stop wearing mask and go out to bars, whatever variant is going around is going to have a very high R0. They also say there is zero evidence it is more virulent than other variants. When you get vaccinated, you develop a lot of antibodies to that particular variant the vaccine was designed for, but you also develop a much broader T-cell and B-cell immunity to all variants. You will very likely never notice if you get re-infected with the original variant, but those antibodies will fade over several months. Then you depend on T-cell and B-cell immunity that lasts years. You might get something like a cold, but never get seriously ill from any variant. Your "cold" will also give you a bunch of antibodies specifically against the variant you caught!

That's just how the immune system works.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/13/21 09:34 PM
Saw the results of a decent-sized Ivermectin trial the other day. They decided it showed some benefits but not significant, but unfortunately they under-dosed and under-treated. US doctors who are successfully treating patients with ivermectin are using up to 400 ug per kg body weight daily until the patient recovers, which often take 5 or 6 days. The trial used 200 ug per kg for two days. Sooner or later, somebody is going to run one of these using the best procedure and get some usable results. But that will probably happen after some drug company patents something similar that costs 1000 times as much.
Posted By: Greger Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/14/21 05:56 PM
The patients using ivermectin proved to be remarkably worm-free though.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/14/21 06:10 PM
Yesterday I watched a report on one of the southern states. The legislature has, basically, removed the option to have vaccines, especially for kids up to 19. Apparently they felt that vaccinations are a fraud and they are going to save their voters from that fraud.

The question seems to becoming "why are the Trumpsters determined to kill off their own citizens AND their children?"
Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/14/21 06:46 PM
"why are the Trumpsters determined to kill off their own citizens AND their children?"

---Two reasons:

1. They still think that the virus is a weapon that they can control. They still don't get that they're playing the ED 209 scene from Robocop.

2. Since it's clear that they think this "weapon" can be controlled, killing off some of their people is worth it if they can point and accuse Biden of not beating the virus.

ED 209 and the virus happen to think otherwise.

They clapped for death at CPAC

"Jesus H. Christ...
Put any other common-sense measure in place of vaccination. Pretend this guy is up there boasting about how many more people are disregarding drunk-driving laws these days, and think about what that applause would mean. Celebrating low vaccination rates is actually worse, more selfish and less responsible; drunk drivers kill people, but they don't spread their high BAC level to the other drivers on the road and send them off to kill more people."

[Linked Image from]
Posted By: logtroll Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/15/21 12:18 PM
Ample evidence keeps slapping me in the face, at an ever increasing pace, that people are crazy… all of us people.

The crazy is not all equal, in style or degree (thank Dog!), but we’ve all got a dose of it.

Could it be that mental illness, or ‘personality disorders’, are the Original Sin that we are all born with?
Posted By: Greger Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/15/21 04:18 PM
Speak for yourself, Kemosabe! I am, unfortunately, all too sane.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/15/21 05:54 PM
There's an exception to every fool rool... just sayin'.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/15/21 06:09 PM
Oh, the state that seems to be banning ALL vaccines (covid, flu, whooping cough, etc) was Tennessee. One of my main wonderings is why in the world the Dems haven't called out the Trumpers as the party of death, or even the party of teen ager death (might encourage them to get vaccinated, with, or without their parents). Apparently a couple did just that which started it all in Tennessee.

Given the simple fact that those getting infected, right now, are them that have not been vaccinated (at least the vast majority). One would think that anybody with half a brain would choose to get vaccinated.

Oh, now they have a new Covid variant called Delta Plus. They are currently testing it to see if those already vaccinated still have immunity. Sounds like those of us vaccinated should probably plan on a boost. This will, of course, continue until the anti-vaxxers are either dead or converted so everybody can get immunity. (I am not holding my breath on that one as they are much more interested in beating the evil non-Trumpers than dying for him).

My vaccine was Moderna. Here is what they have to say about a booster:
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/16/21 10:26 AM
Well, duh! Of course the vaccine companies say we will need boosters. That's their business model! But the professional virologists say we probably won't. The current vaccines all give you T and B-cell immunity against every variant they have seen. Antibodies from those vaccines keep any new variant from reproducing much, so victims have time for their memory T and B-cells to start cranking antibodies out against the new variant. This is why vaccinated or immune people who get infected with a new variant hardly ever get seriously ill. Their new antibodies are specific against the new variant. So every new variant that comes along IS the booster. Once everybody is either infected or vaccinated, SARS-COV2 will just be a seasonal cold virus like the four other corona viruses circulating as common colds.
Posted By: jgw Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/16/21 06:01 PM
You are probably right (you seem to really know about this stuff). On the other hand the plus version of covid has a lot of folks stirred up. My real problem is the anti-vaxxers. The longer we have a serious group of those this thing is going to continue to change and the changes always seem to be more dangerous.

By the way, how is covid doing down there around San Diego. My wife is dragging me down there next week. We have both had our shots and should be OK?
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/17/21 05:48 AM
We keep on going from grey to yellow to orange and back, whatever that means. Different communities have different case loads that correlate perfectly to their vaccination rate. Some communities have a lot of pretty rich people who mostly got vaccinated, but some places like Chula Vista with it's large Hispanic population are quite safe because they went door to door and had a lot of vaccination clinics in the churches. You can study the situation by searching for the county covid information sites. It's all there.

I am careful about who I listen to. Lots of BS flying around out there presented by totally unqualified people. And that includes MDs, who should know better! I think the government agencies are encouraging all the delta variant scare tactics to get more people vaccinated. Good intention, but not true. No variant is "more contagious". Delta is spreading faster because people think the pandemic is over and they are taking greater risks. If you mask up when inside with other people, keep your distance, wash your hands, don't touch your face, you should be fine. You are vaccinated, so even if you did catch it, that would be a head cold for a few days.

As for the antivaxxers, they have a lot more to fear from us, then us from them. We just get head colds or nothing at all if we catch it. They can get dead, or Long Covid. I would feel sorry for them, if they were not so joyously ignorant. But what are you going to do? If they want to risk their lives for incredibly stupid reasons, that's their right.
Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/21/21 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
We keep on going from grey to yellow to orange and back, whatever that means. Different communities have different case loads that correlate perfectly to their vaccination rate.

We should have begun using sewage tracking of COVID viral material back in March 2020 and it should be an all hands on deck effort now.
Tracking virus media in sewage would allow us to track local hotspots with near surgical accuracy.
So why the Hell aren't we doing that?
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/23/21 06:57 AM
Because Public Health (or anything that contributes to it) is a Librul Conspiracy. First they tell us to wear masks and get vaccinated so we don't die, next they'll be coming for our Guns and Bibles. Well, we'll show them. Can't get our Guns and Bibles if we burn down the house and all go to Heaven.
Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas Re: Vaccines, over 65, youth - 07/29/21 11:04 AM
Don't forget to add the fact that all information on COVID is now controlled by Trumpers.

Trump has gifted today's America with what used to be a uniquely Russian take on reality.
The ideal societal overlay that will get Trumpers where they want to be is a society conditioned to not know reality from lies, and which bears an open hostility toward education by anyone outside a local circle of neighborhood politburo influencers and conspiracy theorists. The ideal they seek is total control over the flow of information.

Total information control is an authoritarian wet dream, and for Trumpers here in America, it's their new's like having "the new iPhone".
They will play with each manufactured scandal until the "screen" of credibility cracks, they'll throw it away and then return almost immediately with the next "iPhone" and lather, rinse, repeat.
But never forget that in the grand scheme of things, they see themselves as Apple Corp, so as long as it's an "iPhone" it doesn't matter...because it's their "iPhone" and the only thing that matters is that no one must ever be allowed to choose "an Android".

A total reset on the pandemic is exactly what Trumpers want.
Trumpers will stop at nothing to gift us with a repeat of 2020.
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