Capitol Hill Blue
Posted By: jgw Biden Plans - 04/04/21 06:11 PM
I have been watching the Biden thing and had a thought. I now believe that Trump was elected because he was this big time successful millionaire businessman. The desire was that he would get elected and fix gov so that it actually worked well. What nobody seemed to know is that Trump has failed at everything that he has tried to do except for his basic business that his daddy built and continues to be run by the guy daddy hired. All the rest is mud. He actually went banco 6 times after he blew through the half billion dollar gift from daddy. So, Trump got un-elected.

The really strange thing is that Trump, in four years, built a large group of true believers who support Trump no matter what. Many of them, for instance, actually not only believe in Trump but think he would make a great leader forever and doesn't need the congress at all! There are those on the other side that are saying that these people are anti-democratic and anti-constitution and did an absolutely great job. The other side, for starters, believe that Trump is responsible for a large portion of the 500,000 who have died from Covid-19 and that's just for starters. The other side (my side) believe he was a complete disaster.

Anyway, our problems with gov remain. It still really needs to get fixed! Current examples are vaccine distribution and 20 year wars, the FDA, and that's just for starters (I firmly believe that everybody at this site are well aware that gov really needs fixing and can think of gov things that need to be fixed). I have called, for years, for a new, empowered, Hoover Commission (established in `1947 and responsible for at least 7 major government updates and fixes). Biden has got the money to try and fix the economy with and is now going to try and fix the infrastructure (that REALLY needs it too!) My problem is that Biden seems to be saying there is nothing wrong with gov and everything else is at fault. I don't........

Thoughts?
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/04/21 08:10 PM
Quote
Biden seems to be saying there is nothing wrong with gov and everything else is at fault.


As a rule, Democrats believe that government can be a force for good. There is nothing wrong with using government resources to actually help people. Republicans, on the other hand, believe it is not the government's job. Government resources should be spent on commerce, industry, and defense. NOT social programs of any sort because they are all rooted in socialism.

EVERYONE knew about Trump's failings as a businessman and as a man in general. Republicans elected him because they want government to fail.
He was sent in as a wrecking ball and he pretty near wrecked everything. And they love him for it. Go figger, eh?
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/05/21 05:23 PM
You are right Democrats believe in government and the Republicans want gov gone. Their problem is degree and, now, the Republican party seems to REALLY want gov gone! That being said Democrats also want a government that functions well.

Our government sometimes does and sometimes doesn't. Its pretty clean, for instance, that the FDA, while having kept some pretty serious stuff off the market have also done things that just weren't right. They continue to fight, tooth and nail against the one dollar covid test (I was going to start listing problems with the FDA, I would suggest you google "fda problems" as the list would be too long. Then there is our 20 year war, an utter failure, and continues to this day. This is just two problems and there are a LOT more!

I think we all want a government that functions well and we simply don't have one right now! Here is one study: https://www.pewresearch.org/politic...t-but-some-positive-performance-ratings/

People don't trust gov, people want better gov, etc. Public faith in gov continues to go down. One can go on and on. There are some successes but those are few and far between. I also fear that government bureaucracies REALLY need overhaul. This is, again, incidentally, why I want a new Hoover Commission!

If you google "do americans think their government functions?" you will get a response of something like 1 billion replies and most are not favorable. So, we have two sides. One wants gov gone (along with, currently, the constitution and congress. The other side wants gov but wants a government that does its job and cleans up its messes which is not really happening). Oh, just for grins, approval of congress hasn't hit 30% approval. Congress has a current disapproval rating of 75%.

I believe we need, and should have, a government that is functional, takes care of its problems, and those who would govern would also be willing to sit down with one another and make genuine decisions based of fact rather than hate and separation. I also understand that when one side wants gov gone its pretty difficult for them to actually even want to do anything to fix the problems of an institution they simply do not believe in.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/06/21 05:49 PM
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about this. We both decided that the last president who actually had the well being of the nation in mind was Harry Truman and, probably Eisenhower. Truman left the presidency broke. Now, when president 'retires' they all seem to be rich. When the Clinton's left they weren't rich but took care of that rather quickly I thought. I am not accusing all presidents of being greedy just saying...............
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Biden Plans - 04/07/21 02:29 AM
The Senate Parliamentarian says that Dems can amend an already passed budget law to include ol' Joe's infrastructure stuff, then reconcile it, and avoid a filibuster. smile
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/07/21 05:55 AM
The current situation is rather ideal for Democrats. They can budget reconcile to pass anything to do with spending to get the economy going again, but blame Republicans (and Senema & Manchin) for all other unfulfilled promises. In 2022, the Democrats can run on "We'll do all that other stuff if you give us two more senators." And with the current Republican strategy, I think they will get them.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/08/21 05:14 PM
You may be right. There are, however, problems coming up. I wonder, for instance, what happens if interest is raised which will also raise our cost in paying for our debt. Eventually it will be more than we spend on our military. One can only wonder?
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/08/21 10:58 PM
Most economists claim now that the government spending money on constructive stuff like infrastructure and education is "worthwhile debt", but giving tax cuts to the wealthy is "bad debt". You end up with something of value in the former case. Nothing but rich guys with bigger off-shore accounts in the latter. And for all our spending, interest rates have not risen, and nobody understands why. Economists are more worried about deflation than inflation! And most US debt is held by US citizens, not China.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/09/21 05:05 PM
There is no question that infrastructure improvements/developments pay for themselves. I only wonder why nobody has done anything but promise to do it through about 4 different presidents. Tax cuts for the wealthy are crazy, pure and simple. Given the American difference between rich and poor I suspect we are going to have some very bad problems not too far away. We are no longer, for instance, building anything the poor can buy or live in and its worse every year.

As an aside I should mention that Sweden, I think, has the most millionaires per capita yet they have no billionaires. I think, when somebody millionaire status they have reached the end of fortune building and its time for, I suspect, power instead. In any case...........

Our Interest rates are going to go up, the only question is when. They are not talking much about it but its true. As far as I am concerned taxing the very rich is the right way to go. I also think that stuff gov does has to be paid for. Money is based, flat out, on faith and nothing else. If they keep up the greed and don't take care, the American dollar can, eventually, dump. its happened before. Another thought is that, after WWII, in the 50's, the tax rate on the rich was something around 91% and, now, its waaaaay too low! I know some folks with buck who are actually embarrassed about this one and donate big bucks.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/09/21 09:59 PM
It would change our country much to the better, if we reinstituted the 91% tax rate on incomes above $1 million per year. Incomes higher than that just leads to financial moves that don't benefit anybody. They just intend to make even more income. That tax rate would make such nonsense a waste of time.

Some are going to scream that would be "wealth redistribution", but we have been redistributing all the wealth to the top 1% for decades. The tax would be an attempt to stop it. If rich people wanted to avoid paying that tax, all they have to do is to pay their employees better.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/09/21 11:23 PM
Quote
As an aside I should mention that Sweden, I think, has the most millionaires per capita yet they have no billionaires. I think, when somebody millionaire status they have reached the end of fortune building and its time for, I suspect, power instead. In any case...........
Sweden is a social democracy, It's geared for successful and lucrative careers. It is not geared for coddling the wealthy and allowing too much to accumulate at the top.

Nobody needs billionaires.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/10/21 02:42 AM
It's not so much nobody needs them. The real case is that most of them do actual harm. The few that don't do net harm, only manage that by giving their money away to worthy projects or institutions. IE: I just read about Bezo's ex-wife giving 8 million dollars to a Chippewa Reservation college. She's doing a lot of that kind of thing these days.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/10/21 05:10 PM
In a social democracy there is little need for philanthropy and less for billionaire philanthropists.

Philanthropy implies that there are people who need private help to get by, nothing more than an admission that government has failed.

Like ours.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/10/21 05:22 PM
I think you are flat out right! Everytime I hear Mitch talk about how taxing the rich will destroy all the good their "tax cut" for the very rich accomplished. They continue to blow the trickle down smoke at us and some actually buy into that one. I swear, we have a large group of growed up that simple doesn't have the capacity to act in their own best interest!
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/11/21 01:42 AM
If it's all that great to give most of the money to rich people, let's just give it all to them and become surfs tied to a land owner or factory owner. That seems to be the Republican position, though most of them would end up surfs!
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/11/21 02:25 AM
That's kind of what we mean when we talk about end stage capitalism.

A few hundred billionaires own pretty much everything now.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/11/21 06:24 PM
Before Trump I understood the Republicans and their conservatism. Now, however, that don't work. Right now, for instance, Trump and Mitch are in a Republican pissing contest and those aren't the only two at each other either. Conservatives have always been anti government folks as well as anti-regulation folk. That's just the way they are. They continue to try and hold on to that stuff but its slipping away fast. Trump, for instance, loves to spend money whilst feathering his own. He can't do that anymore with tax dollars so he has already made one run at his supporters (he got caught and had to give back something like 128 million dollars which one would think would weaken his support but, even that, wasn't enough to shake their worship of God's rep on earth Donald Trump (not only has Trump managed to screw up politics but also Religion, to a certain extent. I believe he has also set a brand new standard, don't have any idea where that's going but its not real inspiring.

I am one that believes that the longer Trump is not president the more his importance will decline. I hope I am right but there are a lot of people who will think that's just plain wrong. If he could lose some of the Trump investigations and, maybe, get convicted of serious law breaking maybe that might have some kind of effect but I kinda doubt it. If the fact that he was willing to con his own base to give him money to blow then I am not sure what its really going to take. Remember, everything Trump messes with goes down. EVERYTHING! The man is a walking disaster! The problem with that is that his base doesn't believe that. It just goes on and on and on.

All that being said. The very rich folks need to be taxed. For some strange reason there are democratic groups that want Corporations taxed heavily and, so far, the very rich continue to skate. Its Strange (to me). I have owned several Corporations, none of them were big, most made money, and the taxes were less than they would have been if I had not been incorporated. That being said, I don't think those that want the corporations heavily taxed just don't get it. There are big corporations and there are small ones. If they show a profit then some of the rich get richer and they should get the hell taxed out of them. This is not a simple thing because we have a tax code of considerable complexity and that too, I think, needs some study. I, for instance, would like to see the entire system of taxation re-written with a much simpler outcome with no more givaways, social endeavors, and gifts for them that got. There is a reason, for instance, why oil companies, who make billions every year pay very little in taxes we are told. The problem is that we are told and WE don't do a damned thing to fix that.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/12/21 02:08 AM
Well, I think the only way to make any of those things happen is to elect people who at least SAY they want to do those things. And Republicans won't even say they want to do those things. Once you have Democrats actually running things, then you can look for those Democrats who DO those things, and elect them. They are out there. All they need is support.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/12/21 07:45 PM
There are, I think, some things that are never spoken. One is dealing with the tax code. NOBODY wants to deal with that one I seems. You are right about the Democrats but they have a problem. They just don't seem to understand what it takes to sell something. They have one group (social enthusiasts) that scare the hell out of everybody just for starters. Take healthcare. I believe that our healthcare really needs to be fixed. We are spending something like a trillion dollars that can be saved, our results are not always what they should be, we need more doctors, etc. (this list is long) The Europeans have proven that socializing, in this instance, is the way to go as they have proven that a social healthcare system is cheaper and better than what we have. My point is that they are never going to get that one done because they cannot seem to leave the word "socialist" out of their arguments and that is a killer. They also have a few other good ideas that they are never going to win on. My suspicion is that they should hire a really great marketeer to train them on how to do the job because they sure as hell don't seem to have a clue. I know, I pick on the Democrats and it gets tedious and I apologize but it remains a fact. I think that Biden would have more success, for instance, if he didn't just talk about what he wants to do but why it needs to be done. Sometime he does and sometimes he doesn't (most of the time he doesn't). I think he assumes that everybody knows what he is talking about - not everybody does.

I really hope he can get the infrastructure thing done. He does have some stuff in there, however, that tend to upset a bit. My own thought is that he should start with the stuff everybody understands, have some success and then make another run with that other stuff.

Please note - I am, if nothing else, truly expert in wishful thinking!
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/14/21 12:12 AM
The incremental approach would work if they killed the filibuster, but the current Republican strategy is to vote everything down. So Democrats get just a few budget reconciliations per year the can pass with a simple majority, so it behooves to stuff everything in their bills they can. The limiting factor is Manchin and Senema right now. Effectively, those two Senators get to decide what legislation they will vote for and ultimately they are running congress!
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/14/21 06:51 PM
here's something very interesting.

From the article.

Republicans who were there at the time say today’s landscape doesn’t lend itself to that kind of movement, for a variety of reasons. Biden’s perceived benignness — the difficulty in actually getting people to despise the guy — is just one of them.

Former Gov. Mark Sanford of South Carolina (often described as a Tea Partier before the Tea Party existed) told Nightly that unlike in 2009, “You don’t have that anger bubbling up where people are agitated and mad” that the banks got off easy and politicians helped them. Even if they were mad right now, he added, there isn’t a logical vehicle through which they’d channel that feeling.

“The Republican Party of late has lost its mind and lost its way,” Sanford said. “People who used to believe in some rock solid conservative ideas have bought into a cult of personality phenomenon with Trump and are less ideologically vocal than they were 10-plus years ago.”

As Sanford sees it — and, keep in mind, he’s no Trump fan — a movement like the Tea Party emerges when people galvanize around ideas. When they galvanize around an individual, they’re really just waiting for that individual to act or guide them. Put another way: While the Tea Party exploited a GOP leadership vacuum in 2009, there is a need for a vacuum in 2021.

there's more here.

How Trump prevents a new Tea Party from brewing

https://www.politico.com/newsletter...ents-a-new-tea-party-from-brewing-492461
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/15/21 08:29 PM
Yeah, they are really having a hard time drumming up "Biden Hate" on Fox News. Most of their "scandals" fall apart or are ridiculous to begin with. He's White. He's Christian. Catholic even like a lot of the Supreme Court picks by Republicans! Supports the infrastructure bill, but thinks we need to pay for it. (And who doesn't like free money? Or favor soaking billionaires?) Is reluctant to change the filibuster.

Hard to portray him as a Socialist, since he is about the least Socialist former Senator ever.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/15/21 09:57 PM
Biden has fallen some with independents which I follow very closely. His job approval among independents has fallen from 49% approve the first part of February down to 43% approve today. Overall, 56% of all adults viewed Biden favorably early Feb, down to 52% today. But that's no big thing, it can be chalked up to the normal ups and downs, the ebb of the flow.

Biden's problem may be the Democratic controlled congress. They're on the wrong side of the two most recent issues. Reparations, only 25% of all Americans support this, on adding justices to the SCOTUS, just 32% support that.

Now there's a huge difference in the perception of Democratic congressional delegation and Biden. The Democratic congressional critters are viewed favorably by 40% of all Americans vs. 52% favorable for Biden. The good news for the Democrats in congress is the Republicans in congress have a very low 34% favorable.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Biden Plans - 04/16/21 11:50 AM
Quote
Biden's problem may be the Democratic controlled congress. They're on the wrong side of the two most recent issues. Reparations, only 25% of all Americans support this, on adding justices to the SCOTUS, just 32% support that.
This only shows that the Rightwing Lie Machine is taking hold. Joe is not for reparations and Nancy has not introduced legislation to expand the Court as Joe has put a committee together to study the issue.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/16/21 01:06 PM
When its on the news with Democrats in congress talking about doing this, both reparations and expanding the SCOTUS they'll get both credit from those who are for it and blame from those who are against. For those who aren't political junkies, just catch a few minutes of the news, the perception left is the Democrats are all for it since they're the ones pushing and talking about it.

Perceptions, right, wrong or indifferent play a huge role in politics. You have these Democratic congress critters all over the news talking about expanding the SCOTUS and reparations, introducing legislation, how else is one who doesn't follow the daily grind of politics in D.C. going to take it?

So Biden is against reparations, formed a committee to study expanding the SCOTUS. Forming that committee leaves the impression, the perspective he is all for it or else he wouldn't have done it among those who aren't political junkies. He hasn't said a word about reparations that I know of, once again leaving the impression or perception that reparations are fine with him.

That being said, did you notice the huge difference between Biden's approval, favorable's at 53% today and Democratic congressional members at 40%. for the most part, this isn't tainting Biden one bit, but is tainting the democrats in congress. Biden is likeable, 50% of all Americans like Biden as a person, 34% do not. So it's Democrats in congress getting the blame or taint on this and not Biden. Biden continues to ride high in both job approval and in favorability polls. Democrats in congress aren't. But are still viewed higher in favorable's than Republicans in congress. All adults, nationwide, 40/52 for the Democrats, 34/57 favorable/unfavorable for the Republicans.

Looking for a trend, compare those numbers to 6 Feb 2021, Democrats in congress, 45/43 favorable/unfavorable, Republicans in congress 30/59 favorable/unfavorable. Make of that what you will. Democrats have dropped a bit, Republicans have risen a bit. Most likely just normal ups and downs, ebb and flow. Now the way I take this is the more Democrats are in the news, the lower they will drop. It doesn't help being in the news on the wrong side of issues most voters are against.

Let me put it this way, the right wing machine hasn't been able to dent Biden, but they're making headway against the Democrats in congress.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Biden Plans - 04/16/21 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by perotista
When its on the news with Democrats in congress talking about doing this....
As I wrote,
Quote
...the Rightwing Lie Machine is taking hold. ...
smile
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/16/21 06:03 PM
Am I understanding you right? You consider the news being the right wing lie machine. All the news did was show Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas.in her committee passing the reparation bill. Is this right wing propaganda from USA Today?

https://news.yahoo.com/house-committee-hold-historic-vote-145742260.html

and Democrats introducing the expansion of the SCOTUS to 13.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dem...reme-court-13-justices/story?id=77091722

ABC I don't think is part of the right wing propaganda machine.

The Democrats certainly did the above. Or is it wrong showing this on the news since a majority of Americans are against both?

You do have propaganda machines in my point of view from both side especially on cable news. FoxNews serves as the propaganda wing for the Republicans, CNN and MSNBC as the Democratic propaganda wings. This allows those of different political persuasions to get their news in a way they want to hear the news. I don't blame the networks, they must keep their present viewers happy while trying to attract new viewership. The more viewership, the higher ratings, the more they can charge for their commercials and the more money they make.

If the news is presented in the manner their partisan viewers want, that is what their viewers get. It's a modern day political reality. It's all about money and profit, not presenting the news fully in a fair, accurate way. Because of this most Americans don't trust the media.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/321116/americans-remain-distrustful-mass-media.aspx

and from another source.

https://www.axios.com/media-trust-crisis-2bf0ec1c-00c0-4901-9069-e26b21c283a9.html
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Biden Plans - 04/17/21 01:16 PM
Yes, you read me correctly and YOU are helping to promote the lie. Yes, Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas.in her committee passed the reparation bill, but Nancy Pelosi and most Democrats are not for reparations.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/17/21 04:28 PM
Do you understand perceptions? Since I follow independents, it's how they perceive this whole thing. How do most independents who are about as far from being political junkies like us here, they rarely delve deep into the intricacies of politics. They take what they hear or see on the news and run with it. Their perception is if Sheila Jackson Lee, a democratic committee head is for it, then the Democrats as a whole must also be for it. If they weren't her committee wouldn't have passed it.

There's no right or left wing here. It's just taking what they hear or see and going with it. Most independents, swing voters don't pay much attention to politics until it gets close to an election. They're too busy with their daily lives, trying to make ends meet, watching their favorite TV shows and rooting for their favorite sports team.

Their perception may be right, it might be wrong, that really doesn't matter. Their perception of events and what they see and hear will drive how they end up voting. This is why swing voters, independents will vote for one party's candidates 60-40 one election and then vote for the other party's candidates 60-40 the next.

Once these independents seen the news clip of Sheila Jackson Lee, they equate the passage to the Democratic party as a whole. They observed Sheila Jackson Lee which resulted in their perception of the Democratic Party's stances on this issue through observation. Not digging deep into the subject or the nuances of the subject or who is or who is not in favor of it. They saw, observed, heard what Sheila Jackson Lee said and they know her committee passed it. Thus they arrived at their perception of it.

I don't view that as being right wing or left wing. Just taking what they saw and heard and developed their perceptions of who is for and who is against from that.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Biden Plans - 04/18/21 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by perotista
Do you understand perceptions? Since I follow independents, it's how they perceive this whole thing.
...and my point is...who is putting that perception out there? Conservative media and YOU.

Look...I get it. You people are still angry that your incompetent buffoon lost re-election. You're pissed that ol' Joe has so much #Winning in his first 85 day...that everything isn't a FUBAR and clusterfck like it was under Trump.

You people will do anything to put your corrupt, sexual perverted, racist and bigoted selves back into controlling government. Hmm
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/18/21 12:54 PM
LOL, okay. I was talking about independents in general. For your information they voted for Biden 54-41 over Trump. Does that sound like they fall into your last paragraph?

So a majority of independents have the perception that the democrats are in favor of reparations and in adding justices to the SCOTUS. Why wouldn't they have that perception? They saw Democrats on TV or in the news stating that is exactly what they wanted. They didn't see any other Democrat contradict them.

Keep in mind independents don't delve deep into the politics, way too many other things has priority with them. If they don't see Biden come out on the news and say he's against reparations, since they saw a few other democrats state they're for it, they assume Biden is for it. These folks aren't highly partisan and aren't that ideological political wise. The same for adding justices to the SCOTUS. They see these Democratic senators in front of the capital say they want to add 4 more and in the same news report it is added the Biden has formed a committee to do study the same thing. What would your impression be? your perception of these events if you weren't a political junkie? Again they saw no other Democrats come out and say no to it. Just those Democratic senators who are in favor.

The impression is there, like it or not. I think you're forgetting that these folks voted for Biden because they really disliked Trump and his rude, unpresidential behavior.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/18/21 01:36 PM
When one is a swing voter, just because they disagree with a couple of issues or have a disagreement over a couple to a few policies of the Democrats and Biden doesn't mean they aren't in favor of many more than they disagree with.

You'll find independents aren't what I call mindless robots that have to agree 100% with everything and every issue that the democrats favor, that overall, with everything taken into consideration that they can't support them for the most part and vote for them. I never understood the mentality that one has to be 100% in favor of everything one or the other party does and wants. If I support the Democrats on 60% of the issues and like the direction they're going, I'll vote for them and so too will most other swing voters. We don't have to agree 100% of time or be classified as right wing racist and Trump supporters.

Now if I disagree with the Democrats 60% or more, I'll definitely go the other way. I not beholden or loyal to either major party and never belong to either. I'm against and so too are most other swing voters, independents of reparations and adding justices to the SCOTUS. But that doesn't mean we're against other issues and policies that Biden stands for and has done.

Bottom line, don't expect me or other non-partisans to back you or your party 100% of the time. I'll or we'll pick and choose which issues, stances and policies to be for and which to oppose without a political party telling us which ones to support and oppose. we'll make up our own minds based on how we view things and feel about them and how they effect us.

End of sermon.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/18/21 05:20 PM
There seems to be some confusion here. I vote Democratic because I don't have a choice given the other party. I could list reasons but, why bother? It also doesn't mean that the Dems don't have some serious problems, many of which have to do with what I consider to be anti-Democratic. I have, over time gone after them on several points. I think one of my main points are self declared Socialists trying to take over the Democratic party. That one is kinda interesting as there seems to be a lot of Republicans switching to the Democratic party which will give the Socialists a run for their money. The one I don't understand is the socialist determination to be Democrats rather than joining up with the American Socialist Party which they could easily fit right into. They keep on saying that their socialism will win the day and, if that is true, why in the world are they even doing in the Democratic party?

Its kinda odd for them. I actually agree with a lot of what the Socialists are for but believe that their way of getting it done just turns off a LOT of people. That was demonstrated in the 2020 election, I think. I also think that they, pretty much, spend their time talking to each other and ignoring everybody else and that is one of the prime political errors (talking exclusively to each other).

Oh, this might offend some, don't mean to offend.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Biden Plans - 04/18/21 05:46 PM
How did capitalism workout for everyone when the country was shutdown? It didn't work. Socialism had to stop in and assist.

You're welcome.

smile
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/18/21 11:18 PM
For all the influence of Socialists on the Democrats in Congress (the squad + Bernie?), it was NOTHING like the influence of the fascists on the Republicans! I think maybe one Democrat objected to Trump's electoral results, and that was quickly ignored by all. There never was an insurrection and occupation of the Capital by enraged Democrats trying to overthrow Democracy!
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/18/21 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by jgw
There seems to be some confusion here. I vote Democratic because I don't have a choice given the other party. I could list reasons but, why bother? It also doesn't mean that the Dems don't have some serious problems, many of which have to do with what I consider to be anti-Democratic. I have, over time gone after them on several points. I think one of my main points are self declared Socialists trying to take over the Democratic party. That one is kinda interesting as there seems to be a lot of Republicans switching to the Democratic party which will give the Socialists a run for their money. The one I don't understand is the socialist determination to be Democrats rather than joining up with the American Socialist Party which they could easily fit right into. They keep on saying that their socialism will win the day and, if that is true, why in the world are they even doing in the Democratic party?

Its kinda odd for them. I actually agree with a lot of what the Socialists are for but believe that their way of getting it done just turns off a LOT of people. That was demonstrated in the 2020 election, I think. I also think that they, pretty much, spend their time talking to each other and ignoring everybody else and that is one of the prime political errors (talking exclusively to each other).

Oh, this might offend some, don't mean to offend.
I agree with most of this. I look at candidates be whatever they may be as to which one has the best chance of winning in the general election. Which party has the most acceptable policies and stances on issues good for America as a whole, not just one's party base.

Your point about socialist turning off a lot of people is shown here.

Socialism and Atheism Still U.S. Political Liabilities

https://news.gallup.com/poll/285563/socialism-atheism-political-liabilities.aspx

Only 47% of all Americans would consider voting for a socialist. That is consider, but it doesn't mean would vote for. Big difference between consider and actually voting for.

The numbers, at least party affiliation shows a lot of Republicans leaving the Trump lead party, but going into the independent column and not becoming Democrats.

Party affiliation figures for Nov 2020 Democrats 31%, Republicans 30%, independents 38%. Today those figures are Democrats 32%, republicans 25%, independents 41%.

It's this later group I study and watch closely. They decide elections, neither party's base does. Even at 31% of the electorate, out numbering Republicans by 6 points, Democratic candidates still need to win enough independents to get over the 50% mark. democrats don't need to win the independent vote, getting 45 or 46% should do the trick. republicans need to win independents or they lose the general election.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Biden Plans - 04/18/21 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by jgw
There seems to be some confusion here.

The confusion stems almost 100% from people ascribing different meanings to political labels. The "Socialists" are actually all "Democratic Socialists", which when you look at their platforms is pretty much what America is.

Words are weapons, and there is little integrity or honesty in the war of words.

Perception is what counts, that's why 'alternative facts' are so popular amongst politicians.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 01:20 AM
That is where I got involved with this thread, with perceptions. I think most of us who lived through the cold war equate socialism with communism or perceive socialism as communism. I don't know how the younger ones view or perceive socialism or even what they equate socialism to or what they view what socialism actually is.

I would say quite a lot of folks equate socialism with totalitarianism which once again goes back to the old USSR, the United Socialist Soviet Republic with its totalitarian leaders and party. Again, I would imagine the younger ones have a different view or perspective.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 11:55 AM
I have long used the word ‘socialism’ with a Capital S for the political system meaning, and a small s for a more general meaning, in an attempt to free a perfectly good concept of people working collaboratively.

It doesn’t work on folks who already hate the capital S version.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 12:21 PM
Here's an interesting insight into the psychology of perception, and how powerful it is in skewing the preferences of humans.

Quote
Guido Calabresi, a federal judge and Yale law professor, invented a little fable that he has been telling law students for more than three decades.

He tells the students to imagine a god coming forth to offer society a wondrous invention that would improve everyday life in almost every way. It would allow people to spend more time with friends and family, see new places and do jobs they otherwise could not do. But it would also come with a high cost. In exchange for bestowing this invention on society, the god would choose 1,000 young men and women and strike them dead.

Calabresi then asks: Would you take the deal? Almost invariably, the students say no. The professor then delivers the fable’s lesson: “What’s the difference between this and the automobile?”

In truth, automobiles kill many more than 1,000 young Americans each year; the total U.S. death toll hovers at about 40,000 annually. We accept this toll, almost unthinkingly, because vehicle crashes have always been part of our lives. We can’t fathom a world without them.

It’s a classic example of human irrationality about risk. We often underestimate large, chronic dangers, like car crashes or chemical pollution, and fixate on tiny but salient risks, like plane crashes or shark attacks.

One way for a risk to become salient is for it to be new. That’s a core idea behind Calabresi’s fable. He asks students to consider whether they would accept the cost of vehicle travel if it did not already exist. That they say no underscores the very different ways we treat new risks and enduring ones.

Calabresi's fable
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 03:51 PM
Quote
I don't know how the younger ones view or perceive socialism or even what they equate socialism to or what they view what socialism actually is.
Well let me clear that up for ya...

Take a look around the world at all the other successful democratic nations.

Up top is free healthcare, next comes free education, then, once educated in a field, they are guaranteed a fair wage and a comfortable work/life ratio with family leave and ample paid time off.

That's what the "younger ones" believe socialism to be, because republicans have been telling them that these things are all "socialism" so we can't have them here.

Capitalism, on the other hand, requires expensive and mostly un-affordable healthcare.
With education, now comes a lifetime of debt. Since the cost of college education has skyrocketed under capitalist policies.
Wages have stagnated for decades in favor of higher profits for corporations and the wealthy.

Truly laudable and truly American...the wealthy run roughshod over the poor.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 05:16 PM
Yeah, that probably the difference between those who lived through the cold war and those who hadn't. Two different meaning of one word.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 07:08 PM
One of the main problems with the Democrats and Socialism is the freaking word! "SOCIALISM"! I have been whining about the Dems using that word for, literally, years - to no avail. Its pretty amazing. The Republicans, for all their faults, do NOT us the word FASCIST! They know better and, obviously, the Dems don't. There are those, on this board, that actually insist on using their very favorite word, Socialist, at the drop of a hat and its just fine with them.

I believe that the Dems could actually win, even if the Republicans do not have a financial disaster on their hands (historically those are the only times the Dems beat the Republicans) if they took a few advanced classes in salesmanship because they REALLY don't get it! There are just some words that lose votes. Many seem to think its really important to use them and it really doesn't help.

I continue to wish that the Democratic party would grow up, smell the daisies and get rid of the self proclaimed Socialists. My main reason is that they cost the Democrats votes. I know, and understand, that there are places where 'socialist' is acceptable and that too is fine with me. I just don't think its necessary to wave red flags for absolutely no real reason. Its just plain stupid and the Dems, if they got it, would do something about it instead of embracing everybody even those that work very hard to make sure they lose with some consistency.

The United States of America runs with a 2 party system. Don't matter if you like it or not its just the way it is. There are, in this system, two basic ways to go. One is Liberal and one is conservative. The conservatives are those that are anti regulation and anti government. Its just the way they are, they actually believe that EVERYBODY has the capacity to act in their own best interest and to restrict folks through government or regulation is evil and destroys the freedom of the inflicted. If there are those that do not use common sense or go too far then they get punished because of their bad decisions. That is, in the eyes of a conservative, a good thing and people need to control themselves. The democrats, on the other hand, believe that people need to be controlled and regulated as not doing that would mean that they would do bad things. My personal view is that the Dems are right. There are whole books on this stuff and most understand it. In a lot of postings, here, there are actually arguments about this stuff, not specifically but, still.....

I have been repeating this too, for years! The problem with politics, on either side, is the incredible ability to simply go too far. This is true of either side. The other problem is that each group tends to talk to one another and not the other side. When this happens s*** tends to rain down but everybody, by that point, just don't care. I suspect we are there now and I sincerely hope that sanity arrives.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 07:37 PM
I lived through the cold war, yet I was able advance my definitions of the term as circumstances changed.

Marx set it down, Lenin tried to bring it into existence, Stalin was a hamfisted brute, the USSR was an authoritarian sham. The Cold War was a farce.

Socialism has come a long way since Capitalism began destroying the planet.

See Norway, Sweden, Switzerland...
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 08:22 PM
Quote
One of the main problems with the Democrats and Socialism is the freaking word! "SOCIALISM"! I have been whining about the Dems using that word for, literally, years - to no avail.

That's because you are wrong. Socialism works. It's currently working all over the world in many different forms.

Young voters LOVE socialism and wonder why we can't have it because it's working so well everywhere else.

And you want to hide your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.

You have shown us time and again that you understand nothing about it and refuse to understand anything about it...you just hate the word, because people your age are scared of it. Even though right now you and I are living the socialist dream.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 11:17 PM
Conservatives these days seem to believe that they should be able to victimize others with no punishment. So much for the "bad actors get punished for their bad decisions" ploy. Liberals recognize that sometimes public opinion and shame are not enough, and we actually need rules and rule enforcers. I think it's incredibly naive or disingenuous to claim we don't need government.

As for socialism, Americans LOVE it. Why do you think Social Security was called the Third Rail of American Politics for decades? Government income for elderly folks is about as socialist as you can get! Next thing you know, we'll be giving poor people free food, rent, and health care!

Of course, you threaten to take away out socialist programs and Americans will drive you from elected office.

Communism as per the thinkers, was an ideal system where everybody would have their needs met, while giving their labor to the best of their ability. The USSR is what happens when you try that with lazy, selfish people, and the leaders decide you need to add some stick besides the carrot. They were trying to make ignorant peasants into enlightened "Soviet Man". Did not work, so they added even more stick.

The American system is essentially the same, just with more subtle sticks. We don't force people (at least not White people) to go work picking vegetables for a few years. But we do make them pay taxes so other people can perform any needed vegetable picking. Don't pay your taxes? It's off the the prison farm for you! But Russia had no corner on lazy selfish people. Here in America we call them Republicans.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/19/21 11:48 PM
After reading the 3-4 post above, I think we back to perceptions. How different people have different perceptions of what a socialist and socialism is. Ask a thousand people that question and you'll get a thousand different answers.

Most folks won't go to a dictionary or do any research to find out what exactly socialism is. They have their pre-conceived notion and that is what they run with.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Biden Plans - 04/20/21 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by perotista
Most folks won't go to a dictionary or do any research to find out what exactly socialism is. They have their pre-conceived notion and that is what they run with.
My position is that their is no "exactly what Ssocialism is (Big S, little s). Words are reliably malleable, and anyone trying to permanently fix their meaning to one, narrow, "I'll kill you if you don't agree with me" meaning should be given a free home in a mental institution!
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Biden Plans - 04/20/21 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by perotista
...I think most of us who lived through the cold war equate socialism with communism or perceive socialism as communism...
You're an older (salty) dog and are unable to learn new tricks. Got it. deadhorse
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Biden Plans - 04/20/21 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by perotista
...think we back to perceptions. How different people have different perceptions of what a socialist and socialism is. Ask a thousand people that question and you'll get a thousand different answers....
Words have meaning. Words mean something. Leave it to Right-wingers to make-up their own definition of words to cause mass confusion.


coffee
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/20/21 01:37 PM
LOL, yeah, but I usually equate salty dog to someone in the the Navy or at sea. Not Army. Now a crusty and sometimes cranky old retired MSG, yes.

I would attach only one wing of the political spectrum coming up with different meanings of words or events, happenings or anything else. This happens all over the political spectrum and to those who have no political leanings whatsoever.

It's human nature to put things into a context they understand and believe or been taught to believe from birth or by experience. What they see, hear and feel.

I did a divination search on google and here is what I came up with. There's a lot more, but all say basically the same.

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.and policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.

Socialism is a political, social, and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production. It includes the political theories and movements associated with such systems

Perhaps this explains why so many Americans view socialism bad. They equate it with government ownership of and running business. No free enterprise or individual owned businesses.

Just a stab here. Is socialism good or bad. Like most other things, in moderation, probably good just the same as capitalism in moderation. A combination of both is probably the best. Pure socialism or pure capitalism, I would say is probably bad.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/20/21 06:21 PM
This has absolutely nothing to do with something working, whether is wonderful or great, or anything else. Its the WORD! Consider, how successful do you think the Republicans would be if they insisted on using the word FASCIST to describe themselves? What some Democrats do with 'SOCIALISM' has the same effect.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/21/21 02:34 AM
I may be the weird one here, but I never considered Democrats socialist, I never considered Republicans fascist. I would use words such as liberal and conservative to define them. Those who toss socialist and fascist around are in my opinion propagandist, extreme partisans. But there again, everyone attaches different meanings to the words conservative and liberal. They're perception of each differs, which is not surprising as there are many different kinds of conservatives and liberals.What exactly is left and right, there's no easy definition of either as again, each of us attach their own meaning in how they view the world and politics. A matter of personal perception.

Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist, a definite loser in a general election beings over half of all Americans view socialism as bad and un-American. But is Sanders a true socialist or is he just someone who wants government to help people? I certainly would trust Sanders, avowed Democratic Socialist more than I would Hillary Clinton or Trump with our country. But once the Republicans started running political ads showing Sanders calling himself a democratic socialist, in his own words, he'd lose the election.

As the poll by Gallup showed, 53% of all Americans would never consider voting for a socialist. This is why Republicans in my opinion try to tag Democratic candidates as being socialist. They have tried this with Biden, but trying to portray him as a socialist isn't working. Biden has too long a history in the senate as a moderate Democrat. Someone who had a reputation of being able to work across the aisle.

The fact that Biden comes across as a nice, likable person who acts and behaves presidential does more to insulate him from being labeled by republicans than anything else. Especially after the obnoxious, uncouth, very easy to dislike Trump. Perhaps I got off on a tangent with these last three paragraphs. But that's okay as I think there relevant.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/22/21 02:41 AM
There was a time, and it wasn't long ago, when the word "liberal" was used against democrats.

Eventually they claimed the word and embraced liberalism.

Gays were once slandered with the "queer" label. eventually they claimed it and made it there own. Now they use the word with pride.

Eventually that will happen with the word "socialism".

Quote
Those who toss socialist and fascist around are in my opinion propagandist, extreme partisans.
I am a socialist. I'm not a hyper-partisan.

As far as fascism goes...if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Quote
Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

We have two parties, often referred to as the right and left.

Both are actually right. One is farther right on the political spectrum than the other. And there IS a political spectrum where right and left are defined pretty clearly.

on the left is socialism

on the right is fascism

The USA has always been a bit on the fascist side, with one party generally being more fascist than the other and neither party ever really veering towards socialism. This is well proven by the visceral fear of the word "socialism" by the general population.

Quote
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/22/21 08:11 AM
I used the word fascist to describe Trumpists, who really do meet all the requirements, not McCain and Romney-style Republicans. Those guys had and still have some ideological differences from Democrats, but they would never consider mounting a modern Beer Hall Putsch like the Trumpists just did.

We have a tradition of Senators being Gentlemen who respect the will of the voters, lose (and win) with grace, and vote for bills that benefit the country despite the other Party supporting it. But that's not the modern Trump Party.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/22/21 01:04 PM
Words. Yes, liberal during and immediately after Reagan was used in a derogatory manner. But I also remember when conservative, pre-Reagan was also used in a derogatory manner. I also remember gay simply meant happy. I had an uncle named Gay simple because he was a happy baby or so the story goes. Meanings do change over time.

I have no doubt that socialist will too change and come to mean something different in the future. It has already since the cold war ended.

As for both parties being right, that depends on one's political perspectives. There's that word again, perspective. I view the GOP as being right of mainstream America and the Democrats as being left of mainstream America. That most Americans are somewhere in-between the two major parties political wise. But here again, how one views certain actions and stances on the issues can be viewed left by one person and right by another depending on their own political ideology.

Actually, I view letting a woman choose whether or not to have an abortion along with gay marriage and military service more of a traditional conservative stance or a classic liberal one. Take your pick. Both reside in the area of small government, keeping government out of an individual daily life. Yeah, I'm pretty weird when it comes to politics.

Perhaps the battle is determining what and how much is the government's responsibility and what and how much is an individual's responsibility? That changes over time and is very dynamic in most folks eyes.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Biden Plans - 04/22/21 02:16 PM
There is a perception problem that we are overlooking, and it's a big one. It has been my experience that most people use the words we are discussing without actually knowing what they mean to themselves. I have been in scores of 'discussions' (wordfights, really) where I provide a fairly specific definition of my usage (as Greger did above), and am forcefully told, "That's wrong!" So I ask for the same from my opponent, "Please give me the definition for what 'Socialism' means to you." Usually there is resistance and refusal. Sometimes they go look it up and quote a definition, which more often than not does not fit with their argument. Then I try a couple of examples, usually staying away from the obvious government provided social benefits and aiming for examples of socialism (note the small 's'). "What about private electric co-ops, or farm co-ops?" (Both are mostly found in rural states that are commonly 'red', but not so long ago were heavily 'blue'.)

"That's Capitalism!!"

It may not be a perception problem so much as it is people mindlessly using words that they don't even have definitions for.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/22/21 03:44 PM
Quote
I view the GOP as being right of mainstream America and the Democrats as being left of mainstream America.

Mainstream America does not define the center of the political spectrum. Mainstream America is well right of center just like both it's parties.

Just ask any European. They have lived with and understand socialism far better than Americans who have been propagandized into thinking subjugation by government and corporations is "freedom" and socialism is slavery.

A socialist government's obligation is to it's people. All of it's people...rich or poor. And it's people control the government to their advantage.

A capitalist government's obligation is to the moneyed few. The capitalists and their capital. And it is they who control our government. Both parties. All three branches. Along with all of the media which transforms corporate wants and needs into votes contrary to the wants and needs of the voters.

Capitalism, especially in it's late stages, creates fascism...becomes fascism. This is where we find ourselves today.

Government is the only entity with sufficient power to control corporate greed and the individual greed of the corporatists...the Billionaires we hear so much about these days. Is it any wonder that they have tried to convince the population at large that government is the problem and not the solution?

When they use the government as their solution to everything.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/22/21 03:57 PM
Quote
It may not be a perception problem so much as it is people mindlessly using words that they don't even have definitions for.

JGW doesn't hate socialism. He hates the word because other people hate the word. He wants to pretend the word doesn't exist. Ban it from the airwaves. But it's too late, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Socialism is the future if we have any future at all.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/22/21 04:16 PM
You both could be right. Myself, I look at things on how American view them, especially independents as independents are now larger than the Democratic Party and larger then the Republican Party, although still a plurality at 41%.. I'm not counting leaners as I and Gallup has them all grouped together, Republican leaning independents, democratic leaning independents and pure or true independents with no leans. I suppose they do it this way as none of them affiliate themselves with either major party. Not anymore.

When it comes to elections, what the Europeans think of socialism is irrelevant to America and its elections. It's how Americans view it, their perceptions of socialism. We broke with Europe in 1776 and for the most part until WWII tried to stay out of Europe and Europe's influence, although not always successful. For me what Europe thinks or their politics are totally irrelevant to how most Americans view socialism or any other type of American politics. European's don't vote in our elections or decide them.

For those going to the dictionary, here's what it says about socialism -a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Most American equate community to government or having a government run economy and controlled. Right, wrong or indifferent, that is how most Americans I think view socialism. No private property, no individual owned businesses, all controlled and run by the government.

To me socialism is just a word with many different meanings which varies per individual. Fascist is just another word with many different meanings. These words are used by mostly a political party as propaganda to get the voters to vote for their candidate instead of the other party's. That isn't about to change as long as tossing words with many different meanings to different folks works for them.

I think our government is a mixture and I'm satisfied with that.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/22/21 05:17 PM
I keep repeating myself and it seems so simple. There are certain words, when used in certain situations that get the juices flowing for some people and "Socialist" when talking politics is one of those words. It has virtually nothing to do with socialism at all! When a lot of people hear that "Socialism" in reference to politics other things come to mind; failure/loser being at the top of that list.

In the 50's there was McCarthyism. McCarthy was a sitting Senator who used the word "Communism" to smear people. Whether they were a communist or not if they could be painted they could be destroyed. He was finally shut down but not before he destroy a number of people both guilty and not guilty of being a communist. If you were a communist you were pals with the evil Russians and anti-american and that was the end of that. The Republicans, right now, are accusing, not individuals, but the entire Democratic party of being "Socialists" and that means something bad that we don't want in our government for many. In 2020 we had an election and most of those running got painted as Socialists and Socialism is a loser and does not normally get elected. They not only want to help the poor, why, they want to give EVERYTHING away! Hell, we know that's the case because there are a number of prominent Democrats claiming to be Socialists! (they called it "Democratic" Socialism but 'we' al know what it really means.

In other words, this is not an argument about poliics. What it is, basically, is name calling that works for the Republicans - truth and fact has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

I am really tired of saying this again and again and nobody quite understanding it. Let me say it again! Name calling is something we learn when we are children and some have learned it works when you are an adult too. Its a mean spirited human technique for wrecking somebody for personal reasons and has nothing to do with truth or fact but rather a method of convincing somebody of something so you can get your own way - just like when you were a kid. I have watched folks, here, move immediately to the fact that they are socialists and, in case they miss it, nobody really cares! ITS THE F***CKING WORD! NOTHING ELSE!

My own thought is they only way to deal with the problem is to stop claiming to be a Socialist! Bernie is a really good example of how to lose an election by claiming to be a Socialist. He is actually right most of the time but keeps on claiming the mantle of Socialist and that's the problem! I think that those who claim that they are Socialists should join the American Socialist Party! Its out there, they will welcome new members! This is a link to their site: https://www.socialistpartyusa.net/ (the american socialist party shut down in 1972. All that being said, I don't care if you are a socialist or not but, if you are going to vote democratic I would REALLY appreciate it if you stopped claiming to be a Socialist, a Democratic Socialist, an Alien Socialist, or anything else that has the word "Socialist" in there. If you don't then you are, basically, supporting losses for the Democratic party which simply doesn't have the backbone to purge them, not because they are Socialists but because they help the other side win with their mouths.

Again - seems pretty simple to me!
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/22/21 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by jgw
I keep repeating myself and it seems so simple. There are certain words, when used in certain situations that get the juices flowing for some people and "Socialist" when talking politics is one of those words. It has virtually nothing to do with socialism at all! When a lot of people hear that "Socialism" in reference to politics other things come to mind; failure/loser being at the top of that list.

In the 50's there was McCarthyism. McCarthy was a sitting Senator who used the word "Communism" to smear people. Whether they were a communist or not if they could be painted they could be destroyed. He was finally shut down but not before he destroy a number of people both guilty and not guilty of being a communist. If you were a communist you were pals with the evil Russians and anti-american and that was the end of that. The Republicans, right now, are accusing, not individuals, but the entire Democratic party of being "Socialists" and that means something bad that we don't want in our government for many. In 2020 we had an election and most of those running got painted as Socialists and Socialism is a loser and does not normally get elected. They not only want to help the poor, why, they want to give EVERYTHING away! Hell, we know that's the case because there are a number of prominent Democrats claiming to be Socialists! (they called it "Democratic" Socialism but 'we' al know what it really means.

In other words, this is not an argument about poliics. What it is, basically, is name calling that works for the Republicans - truth and fact has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

I am really tired of saying this again and again and nobody quite understanding it. Let me say it again! Name calling is something we learn when we are children and some have learned it works when you are an adult too. Its a mean spirited human technique for wrecking somebody for personal reasons and has nothing to do with truth or fact but rather a method of convincing somebody of something so you can get your own way - just like when you were a kid. I have watched folks, here, move immediately to the fact that they are socialists and, in case they miss it, nobody really cares! ITS THE F***CKING WORD! NOTHING ELSE!

My own thought is they only way to deal with the problem is to stop claiming to be a Socialist! Bernie is a really good example of how to lose an election by claiming to be a Socialist. He is actually right most of the time but keeps on claiming the mantle of Socialist and that's the problem! I think that those who claim that they are Socialists should join the American Socialist Party! Its out there, they will welcome new members! This is a link to their site: https://www.socialistpartyusa.net/ (the american socialist party shut down in 1972. All that being said, I don't care if you are a socialist or not but, if you are going to vote democratic I would REALLY appreciate it if you stopped claiming to be a Socialist, a Democratic Socialist, an Alien Socialist, or anything else that has the word "Socialist" in there. If you don't then you are, basically, supporting losses for the Democratic party which simply doesn't have the backbone to purge them, not because they are Socialists but because they help the other side win with their mouths.

Again - seems pretty simple to me!
I understand. It's all about perceptions. The word socialist signifies something evil to a great many people.It's an election loser which is why Republicans try to paint democrats as socialist whether they are or not. If you can get that word to stick, 53% of Americans won't vote for him.

If you can paint your opponent as a socialist and it sticks you have a big leg up come election time. Why was Biden considered the safe candidate to beat Trump, mainly because he was likeable, had a nice personality, he also had a long history of being a moderate democrat which as hard as republicans tried, could never paint him as a socialist.

The simple solution, call oneself a progressive democrat and not a Democratic Socialist. I don't think there's much difference except in the name. If Sanders had gone around in both 2016 and 2020 calling himself a progressive democrat instead of a Democratic socialist, he'd probably won the nomination and the presidency. My opinion only, no numbers or facts to back that up. Gut feeling. I think the Democratic establishment got behind both Clinton and Biden because they were afraid of the word socialist and they knew a majority of Americans wouldn't vote for a socialist. They would however vote for a progressive Democrat. Both can have the same platform, the same ideas, the same stances on the issues, the same everything, but one can get elected, the other can't.

I understand. If Sanders had called himself a progressive instead of a socialist for the last 10-15 years, he'd be sitting in the White House beginning his second term. My opinion anyway.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/23/21 04:15 PM
Quote
I understand. If Sanders had called himself a progressive instead of a socialist for the last 10-15 years, he'd be sitting in the White House beginning his second term. My opinion anyway.

Quite right! But I'm not sure I really wanted him to be president anyway.

Sanders has done his job. Socialism is more popular in the USA than it's ever been, the Democratic Platform was practically written by Sanders.

You talk about 53% being opposed to any socialist and what I see is 47% who are not!

JGW, You can't strike every word from the dictionary and common usage just because some bully chooses to use them as an insult.

You slap the bully in the face with it and claim it as your own.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/23/21 04:51 PM
Well thought! Perfect plan to make sure the Republicans win elections! I didn't know you were a republican!
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/23/21 07:08 PM
I'm not. But I'm not a Democrat either and I don't care whether Republicans win elections. Many areas are probably better served under republican leadership. They aren't all kooks and creeps.

I vote democratic because I believe the path to socialism lies through the democratic party.

They are the defacto socialist party in the United States whether you or they want to admit it or not. Neither the philosophy nor the word is going anywhere.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/23/21 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by Greger
I'm not. But I'm not a Democrat either and I don't care whether Republicans win elections. Many areas are probably better served under republican leadership. They aren't all kooks and creeps.

I vote democratic because I believe the path to socialism lies through the democratic party.

They are the defacto socialist party in the United States whether you or they want to admit it or not. Neither the philosophy nor the word is going anywhere.
Interesting. The democrats are the left's party, the liberal party, the closest to being a socialist party of our two major parties. That is what I think you're getting at.


I'm not a republican nor a democrat either. I never have been or belonged or associated myself with either major party. I voted for both party's candidates and in a few cases against both major parties candidates by casting my ballot for a third party candidate.

What I don't like about either major party is that they, the party itself or those who are avid members have a litmus test. They expect you to support any and all things their party supports. I pick and choose which issues to support or oppose one at a time regardless of either party's position. A free thinker and not a mindless robot following the doctrines of either party or doing as their leaders state.

Like I said, I'm the weird one here. I'd like to share this, I just received it from Gallup.

Biden Job Approval a Respectable 57% at 100 Days

https://news.gallup.com/poll/348974...nt=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication

Like most independents, swing voters, I happy with Biden so far. You can compare Biden to other presidents for their first 100 days and first quarter of his presidency.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/24/21 05:23 PM
The Republicans have a little problem. They no longer display what the hell they stand for (platform)! No more platform, no nutt'in. So, these days, if you are a Republican I only know one thing about you - that you support Donald Trump - that's it! The Dems, at least, does have a platform and you can go to their site and read it. So, we still have two parties. One tells everybody what they stand for, and the other one presents a crap-shoot whilst fighting an internal war as well as a war against the other side. Its pretty strange. The Dems, of course, don't point this out because they are kindly and don't want to offend.

Its Interesting, Gregor, for instance, has proudly stated he just doesn't care, except sometimes (I guess). I am not sure about that one but, hopefully his group is in a minority, otherwise we are surely doomed to live under some kind of strange dictatorship controlled by a man who has destroyed virtually everything he has touched and believes any number of conspiracies that have nothing to do with reality.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/24/21 06:26 PM
I wouldn't worry about Trump or living under him. The largest group of voters, independents have decide they don't like him. If 2020 proved anything, independents were willing to vote for other Republicans, but not Trump. As long as the Republican Party continues their worship of Trump, they'll be on the outside until and if they come to their senses.

I do think the Republican establishment, their leaders recognize this. But are afraid to challenge Trump and his supporters since they may control 2/3rds of the GOP vote. They know they have to attract and win independents to win elections. With Trump and his followers still holding sway, the GOP isn't going to attract the independent vote it needs. But to discard Trump is discarding way too many GOP voters who follow him like Trump is their messiah.

I'd say the GOP is between a rock and a hard place. They can't win general elections without kowtowing to Trump supporters to keep them voting for their candidates, which alienates independents and they can't win general elections by attracting independents without alienating Trump Supporters by discarding Trump.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/25/21 03:32 PM
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Gregor, for instance, has proudly stated he just doesn't care, except sometimes (I guess)

Nope. Don't care. Neither party actually represents my political agenda..

I announced a long time ago that I didn't care whether Trump won or not. Trump has done nothing but damage to the authoritarian GOP by showing Americans just how little he and they care about working Americans.

A second Trump term would have been bad for the US and the world in the short term...in the long term it would have eliminated the chance for a Republican resurgence in 2024 and into the foreseeable future.

The Biden win has only gained us two years. If the Trump infighting and backbiting continues long enough we might gain another two years.

Will Biden run again at 80? Do you want him to?

FL Gov Ron DeSantis is the conservative frontrunner for 2024. Trumpers like him, Trump likes him. Floridians like him. He's a Harvard educated lawyer, an Iraq veteran. A rock ribbed Republican and an able administrator. He will be handily re-elected in 2022 which will get him a lot of national press as his focus will immediately be on beating Biden in 2024.

My guess is that he will squash VP Harris like a bug.

And that he will make a pretty good president.

That's really all you can ask.

It will crush my hopes for socialist reform for another 8 years, but it's coming, whether I live to see it or not.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/25/21 04:58 PM
I must admit Greger has the most interesting and it seems to me common political sense of almost anyone I ever met. At least in dealing with the realities of elections in general and how perceptions of the voters can influence those elections.

I don't think Biden will run again in 2024. That Harris is being groomed to replace him. I haven't followed or paid much attention to DeSantis, so I'll take what Greger says about him as fact. 2024 is a long way away. I've been more interested in 2022. Watching the senate while I wait on reapportionment and the drawing of new districts for the House.

I'm wondering why it's taking so long for reapportionment. So no comments on the House or its prospects for 2022. The senate races that I'm following at this early date are Arizona, Georgia, New Hampshire held by the Democrats along with Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin held by Republicans. All other seats look fairly sold or safe for the party that holds them.

These seven states I would rate tossup's. That is until the opposition party nominates someone or I get a better idea who that someone might be. 2022 is the Democrats chance to pick up seats since the Republicans have 20 seats up for reelection vs. 14 for the Democrats. Now 2024 is the opposite, the GOP will have a big chance of picking up seats with only 10 Republicans vs. 23 Democrats up for reelection that year.
Posted By: jgw Re: Biden Plans - 04/25/21 05:33 PM
Its interesting. I am not sure you understand just how close the rioters were to taking over, killing half the congress, and elevating Trump to sacred, ruler, status. The only reason it failed is because it was a Trump operation and his followers didn't understand that Trump is not capable of actually running anything, except into the ground. Failure is his way, pure and simple. Anyway, from what you are saying it seems that you are quite willing to live in a country run by Trump the Dear Dictator. I am not sure why but ..............
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/25/21 06:28 PM
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I am not sure you understand just how close the rioters were to taking over, killing half the congress, and elevating Trump to sacred, ruler, status.

And I'm not sure you understand just how bad for the Republican Party that would have been. I couldn't stop laughing for weeks after the insurrection. If they had caused a few deaths among the congresscritters it would have been even better!

Maybe even the Republican VP! They built gallows for him in front of the Capital building...

There is not, nor was there ever, any chance that Donald Trump could be elevated to anything besides former president status after he lost the election. Killing a bunch of elected officials would not have changed that.

Something like 60 judges and the conservative Supreme Court had already ruled against him. No amount of killing was going to put Trump back in office.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/25/21 07:41 PM
Americans have short memories, 6 Jan has been forgotten by most except the very partisan Democrats. Now if the rioters or takeovers or whatever you want to call them had killed some congress critters, that memory would have been longer. How much longer, who knows? 6 Jan has been replaced by much more recent events which in the opinion of the majority are much more important at this time. That's the way these things work. Come election day 2022, 6 Jan 2021 might as well taken place in 1910 as it will be ancient history.

Pretty much everything that happens this year most likely won't effect the Nov 2022 elections as much newer events and different news headlines will have replaced it. This is the way it usually works.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Biden Plans - 04/25/21 11:11 PM
There is a smaller possible effect in 2022 candidates using Insurrection 2021 footage in their negative campaign ads.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/26/21 12:43 PM
I think it's possible some just might use the footage in house races. I don't think it'll do any good since many other, newer issues and events would have replaced something that happened 22 months ago.

Along the same line, the Democrats never used Trump's first impeachment in the campaign leading up to Nov 2020. That happened just 9 months prior to the election in Jan/Feb 2020. Not 22 months prior, but just 9. Why not, I don't know. I expected it, but it didn't happen.

I think running negative ads with footage from 6 Jan 2020 in the 2022 midterms would have the effect of solidifying those who'a minds are made up, the partisans who were going to vote Republican and Democratic anyway. That running footage will have very little to no effect at all on independents or those undecided. These folks will make up their minds on the hot issues of the day, not something 22 months old.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/26/21 05:16 PM
The Jan 6 insurrection was a genuine historic event. Like the space shuttle Challenger, like 9/11, like the Kennedy assassination. The attack on the Capital was more than just business as usual in Washington.

It was a seditionist president calling for the overthrow of the government and his supporters storming the capital with murderous intent.

And it was a party which turned a blind eye to it.

It won't hurt to remind voters of the outrage they felt that day.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Biden Plans - 04/26/21 07:36 PM
In most countries, such a failed coup attempt would have resulted in Former Dear Leader's head on a pike, along with all the heads of his little insurrection force, on the road between the White House and the Capital. If Americans just forget about it, we truly get whatever government we deserve.
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/26/21 11:30 PM
I think we've always had the government we deserved and will continue to do so.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/27/21 12:28 AM
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I think we've always had the government we deserved and will continue to do so.

It hasn't been a bad run for us white folks!
Posted By: perotista Re: Biden Plans - 04/27/21 12:51 PM
In theory the people always have had the power to change government, at least personnel. But our choices have been limited to basically the two major parties. No out of the box changes can be made. The rhetoric is different and opposite for the major parties, but they govern close to the same. Both owe their hearts and souls to corporations, wall street firms, lobbyist, special interests, mega money donors.

I think regardless of which party is in power, they basically play around the edges of government. Our government has grown so large, no one and no party can basically its direction. Perhaps all we can do is nudge it in what we consider the right direction.

But money drives both major parties. Biden raised and spent 1.6 billion on his presidency run, Trump 1.1 billion. A total of 17 billion was spent on the 2020 election not counting the Georgia runoffs. I suppose the bottom line is neither major party can piss off these moneyed folks. They invest in our elections and they expect a very good return for their investment. They get it regardless of party.
Posted By: Greger Re: Biden Plans - 04/27/21 04:27 PM
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The rhetoric is different and opposite for the major parties, but they govern close to the same. Both owe their hearts and souls to corporations, wall street firms, lobbyist, special interests, mega money donors.

Our Corporate Overlords

Government is the only entity with sufficient power to reign them in and THEY control the government. They control the news you watch, they control they way you vote.

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Our government has grown so large, no one and no party can basically[change] its direction. Perhaps all we can do is nudge it in what we consider the right direction.

Biden's election showed that collectively America was ready to swerve left a little bit.

Towards socialism. A recent poll showed that among Millenials 70% would vote for a socialist. They have taken the brunt of the damage dealt by neoliberal policies of both parties.

Young folks are just biding their time and waiting for this last crop of Boomers to die.
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