Capitol Hill Blue
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“I have been shot at a lot and nearly killed a bunch of times,” said Gen. Barry Richard McCaffrey (ret.). “I‘m not an alarmist. I stay cool under pressure. Mark me down as alarmed. I just listened to Sen. Tim Kaine (D-VA) — wonderful, experienced, mature guy — say this is just payback to [Mark] Esper not being a loyalist. I don’t believe it. We’re watching a setup of some people who are unqualified for office to be in control of the 2.1 million men and women of the armed forces.”

-Gen. Barry Richard McCaffrey (ret.) on MSNBC 11/11/20

This is what we know:
  • Trump says the election is a fraud
  • Trump fired the Secretary of Defense Esper and placed a guy who has no experience running the military
  • Currently installing 'unscalable fence' around the White House
Sounds like the General is on to something. Hmm
you left out the part about CIA analysts who may have seen similar activities in 3rd world countries would have concluded there would be a high probability a coup was imminent.


So anyone think Gen McCaffrey is some nut case???? Not talking about Gen Tata, a certifiable nut.

So I have to ask again for the sake of all those folks who continue to say ,,, can't happen because etc etc. ... who would prevent it from happneing? ... the courts? ... Congress? ... the military? .... o yeah the people won't stand for it ....


so my question is who would stop him from declaring himself the duly elected president and remaining in office. If he has the balls to grab women, and believe he is above the law (and with good reason witgh AG Barr) he has the balls to start a coup
His loyalists he installed at Justice are a very very thin layer. They might follow his illegal orders, but the vast majority of the folks there will not. Same goes for the military, the FBI, the Secret Service, etc. Trump's "army" consists mostly of Republican lawyers and a bunch of yahoos with AR-15s. The lawyers ultimately are useless, because all they do is file evidence-free lawsuits that get dismissed. If they ever get anything to the Supreme Court, Roberts has already said: "Not our job" with regard to overturning ACA today. I'm sure he and most of the court would not even consider ignoring all those state's certified votes.

This is about Trump ignoring the laws of the land, and Supreme Court Justices are all about respect for the law. It's their whole reason for existence.
Let;s see

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His loyalists he installed at Justice are a very very thin layer.
True

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They might follow his illegal orders
Not might they will definitely follow illegal orders

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the vast majority of the folks there will not
So what if Gen Milley will not follow illegal or immoral orders, Gen Tata will. And what if Trump loyalists at DoD use their position to recruit military officers who are not just loyalists but true believers to defend Mr Trump??? What then? You reckon harsh language will stop them. Remember the shower room scene form the Rock? Would it come to this? Who knows but if you know any rabid Trump supporters I think you may have a clue.

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Trump's "army" consists mostly of Republican lawyers and a bunch of yahoos with AR-15s.
And how many people does it take to implement a successful coup? Lenin did it with a light push ... 3rd world dictators have done it with little or no bloodshed because people did not resist. So how would you stop it? seek remedy form the courts? ... people would not stand for it and what would they do ... carry signs ... shout slogans? ... what would Congress do? pass bills in outrage and Republican complicity ....

so if you have some outcome, other than he will just step down ... please let me hear it

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I'm sure he and most of the court would not even consider ignoring all those state's certified votes.
In normal times I would agree but why confirm 3 justices who were handpicked to uphold not just the Constitution but ultra conservative ideology. I can't base my trust in a belief they will do the right thing, when I know they were confirmed for all the wrong reasons.
"And how many people does it take to implement a successful coup? Lenin did it with a light push ... 3rd world dictators have done it with little or no bloodshed because people did not resist."

Whaaaaa???

Light Push?

Didn't they fight a civil war?

Americans aren't ready to fight one of those, IMO.
What qualifications did Esper have to run the military?

Besides being a Raytheon lobbyist?
Good if true, IMO.

Scoop: Divisive Pentagon hire may rush troop withdrawals before Trump's exit
CNN reporting out same..

Trump administration installs advocate for quick Afghanistan withdrawal at Pentagon

Ohhh Nooo!!! How will the the congressional fail children get jobs on boards, think tanks, and political consultancy co's if their parents can't sell war anymore?

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Didn't they fight a civil war?


Not really, not in the sense we think of as a civil war. Nothing like our own bloody conflict.
Rilly?

Whats all this about then? Looks bloody and multi-sided one to me.

Russian Civil War

If Trump wants to withdrawal from Afghanistan - an 18-year "war" that has been a quagmire for the US, so be it. If Trump wants to remain as POTUS, then nope.
I'll worry about this supposed "coup" when it happens.

As of January 20th, he is no longer the president. He no longer wields any legal power and is nothing more than a private citizen trespassing on government property. Perhaps he can gather a handful of armed insurrectionists to hold the White House for a time, perhaps not. Perhaps the Proud Boys will come to his aid. Perhaps the Senate will condone the use of US Military forces to quell the riots...perhaps, like Seattle and Portland it will only increase the violence...

All of these possible strange scenarios in which Donald John Trump clings to power through force, ignoring the will of the people and a lawful election, strike me as somewhat farcical.

I heartily insist that it truly cannot happen here.

...and if I'm wrong? Well, by all means let it happen! Let's watch this thing play out and see how long it lasts and how successful it is in the end...

Should be pretty amusing.
Originally Posted By: Greger
As of January 20th, he is no longer the president. He no longer wields any legal power and is nothing more than a private citizen trespassing on government property.

Don't trespassers get a red laser beam pointed to their head by Law Enforcement? Asking for my frienemy, Donald.

smile
Lenin toppled the tsarist government with almost no effort, as it was really a defunct government walking. My reference was to this not the aftermath which lasted 5 years.

BTW the wiki article did not list the US presence in Siberia.
Originally Posted By: pdx rick

If Trump wants to withdrawal from Afghanistan - an 18-year "war" that has been a quagmire for the US, so be it. If Trump wants to remain as POTUS, then nope.


I can go with that. If His Maganificence wants to secure His legacy as a winner, then ending the war in Afghanistan would be a sure way to do it.
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I'll worry about this supposed "coup" when it happens.
The American version of transition of power is predicated on the loser voluntarily relinquishes power. There are no laws which require or force the loser to actually leave office. Thus when I say, if Mr Trump says he is the president (o and he has) and he says he's not leaving the WH, what law or entity can force him to leave? You may argue he is a trespasser and legally should be evicted, but who will evict him if he doesn't leave? You see the problem? ... an eviction notice doesn't move him ... the courts can't make him leave ... every Congressman can tell him to remove himself and should he not, how did that work? .... call law enforcement to remove? ... which law enforcement? SS? DCPD? ... how about the military? he maintains he is president and therefore CiC ... Gen Milley may say, sorry but you're not the lawful president, but how about Gen Tata, who says Mr Trump is the president and starts ordering troops to protect Mr Trump from an insurrection or coup perpetrated by the Biden insurgency? What then?????

Don't misunderstand me. If Sen Cruz had been elected and he said he won the election because of rampant fraud, went to courts etc etc, I would have little doubt he would make the hand off. So what's different? Mr Trump is a narcissist. In his delusional world he was the winner because he knows he could not possibly lose. As a narcissist he would be incapable of resolving the dissolution of his delusion.

I have raised this possibility not because it makes for an interesting conspiratorial screenplay, but because he is a narcissist. What I hope happens is he will be beaten down by advisors who will convince him to leave office. He may do as Cohen says and simply go to Mar a lago for Christmas and never return, not concede or meet with PE Biden, but who cares.

While you may have no doubt of what will occur, I have a lot of doubt.

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All of these possible strange scenarios in which Donald John Trump clings to power through force, ignoring the will of the people and a lawful election, strike me as somewhat farcical.
Narcissists live in a delusional world. To an outsider their world is farcical. So why would Mr Trump maintaining the delusion he won the election and try to hold on by force seem any less farcical than he already is???

Mr Trump through out his tenure at the WH has often tried to act unlawfully but backed down only through the efforts of advisors who tried to restrain him. Are there enough responsible men who want to maintain their oath to the Constitution, who may convince him to relinquish power, I don't know. I hope there is and I hope Mr Trump relents. But there is no guarantee with a narcissist.
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the aftermath which lasted 5 years


Times of political trouble and turmoil, probably a failed economy and an outdated system.

Times like these. A divided populace, many clinging to the old ways, many seeking a brighter future...the right, the left, and inevitably the center.

Lenin had the right of it but Stalin blew it all to hell.
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Mr Trump through out his tenure at the WH has often tried to act unlawfully but backed down only through the efforts of advisors who tried to restrain him.


And he will once again back down through the efforts of his advisors, the US Congress, the Supreme court, the Secret Service and the Military. Not to mention his wife, who never signed up for any of this.

A gaggle of senators spouting nonsense to appease the magaverse is not the same as a vote on the senate floor to subjugate the will of the people for that of an unlawful usurper.

But if indeed such a thing comes to pass then I suggest it will be short lived and doomed to failure.
Mike Duncan's 'Revolution' podcast did an insanely deep dive into the Russian Revolution. A fun dive:

Revolutions podcast

I wouldn't call it a cake walk for Lenin and a lot of stuff preceded his consolidation of power. Guess I'm taking Gregor's view here. I take your meaning that Coups come on suddenly though, like the Velvet Revolution did.
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Thus when I say, if Mr Trump says he is the president (o and he has) and he says he's not leaving the WH, what law or entity can force him to leave?

I'd say the Secret Service, who would see a hostile and belligerent ex-president posing a threat to the real president in his living quarters? Hmm
I really doubt any military or government employee would risk a treason conviction to support a Trump coup. Consider the risk/benefit ratio: Risking life imprisonment or death against a few months of shared illusion? Very few Trump supporters actually believe he won. Most of those who do are not particularly functional in the real world.
The 22nd Amendment to the Constitution is explicit. The terms of the president and vice president shall end at noon on the 20th day of January. Which simply means one minute after 12 noon. Trump is no longer president.

Who ever wants to evict him can have at it.
I doubt he will attend the inauguration. He'll probably be at Mar-A-Lago, or some place without an extradition treaty. Considering he's talking about running in 2024, Mar-A-Lago seems the safe bet.

Biden should fumigate the White House and maybe even send in the bio-hazard team to check it out before moving in. At least let it sit empty with all refrigerators and freezers off and open for 4 days to let the SARS2 virus die. The place is a pest-hole.
I will take advantage of current events to say .... not the SS .... they are all in quarantine because the Super-Spreader-in-Chief got them all infected.
What you say it true and valid if someone has been elected president. You assume Mr Trump lost ... well ... because you can read the results of the election. However, Mr Trump reads the same results and sees that he was cheated by a corrupt Democrat Party and therefore he won. O he still maintains he won, despite the fact there are not enough ballots left to change the current status of the results and there are not enough errors which can do the same.

So the scenario is not about what the Constitution says or what the black and white vote count is .... sure he lost and the current winner will be inaugurated ... it is about someone who claims ( and remember he is still occupant of the WH) the election was plagued by fraud (even if he can't prove it) and he therefore in good conscience (I am not sure a narcissist has a conscience) can not turn over the reins of the government to a pretender. Now that may not mean much if he was the only person who believe his delusion, but it appears there are quite a few who are so loyal to Mr Trump they also believe the delusion. Could not some of those deluded people of Trump's cult of personality be in all the right places to keep the actual winner from getting all the necessary political accoutrement to govern? Could not Mr Trump convince enough members of the military to protect the office of the presidency from a pretender?

You may say can't happen in America. My response is ... have you seen any Trump loyalist talk??? Why this morning Navarro said Mr Trump won the election. former Sec Esper has said God help us with Mr Trump is capable of in the last days of his tenure.

I am not saying it will happen. I am saying everyone should be alerted to the possibility the narcissist occupying the WH may go off the rails and there enough people loyal and true believers to follow him where ever he goes to implement some crazy scheme.

Can;t happen in America? We may be watching in real time.
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I will take advantage of current events to say .... not the SS .... they are all in quarantine because the Super-Spreader-in-Chief got them all infected.

ROTFMOL
If they are actually quarantined, then any potential infections will stop within two weeks. That puts us at December 1st: The Electoral College doesn't even meet until mid-December.
Originally Posted By: perotista
The 22nd Amendment to the Constitution is explicit. The terms of the president and vice president shall end at noon on the 20th day of January. Which simply means one minute after 12 noon. Trump is no longer president.


This. It doesn't matter what Pompeo, or FOX, or anyone else says.

Trump is a childish little would-be autocrat, but lacks any tools to enforce his presidency past that date.
I think this weekend is going to clear up any misunderstandings. ALL the miscellaneous armed groups, True Trump Believers, QAnon believers, and the rest of the seriously troubled, as far as I can tell, are planning on rising in Washington DC. I have no idea what they plan, what they want or what they will be allowed to do but, again, we are likely to learn all about it. Oh, Trump has, I think, promised, to attend as well.
Only a few thousand showed up for the "Million Man MAGA March". That included Proud Boys, neo-nazis, White supremacists, and many simply delusional Trump fans. Counter protestors also showed up, with some fighting. Police tried to maintain peace. When Trump fans first arrived, they found large signs put up on the fence around the White House: FAILURE and LOSER

photo from the White House
gee ... for a normal person a little miffed they didn't win ... I agree. But Mr Trump is not a normal person. He suffers from narcissism ... not an inflated ego ... a real personality disorder. making him irrational. Normally, that would not be a problem but he has loyal supporters in high government positions, supporters who have taken a fealty oath to Mr Trump .... they will lie for him ... they will die for him.

Clearly he does not care what the Constitution says, or the courts (unless they agree with his delusion) say. So the question, is he goofy enough to ignore his advisors, the courts, Republicans, and his family and pursue some political adventurism? Look I don't know. What I do know is he is volatile, and without direction ... and he is a narcissist.

Every time I see someone say Mr Trump is childish ( or something similar) I know they do not understand the depth of the personality disorder. He is sick, and because he is, his delusion is in jeopardy. I don't know whether he will curl up in a fetal position or command his loyal supporters in government to protect him from delusion of a Democrat coup. In the first case his family may slip him away under cover of night. In the second, the military may have to remove him from the premises. How is that for a look at America? Looks like a coup to me, installing the corrupt Democrat regime. What would the ratings look like???? hmmm .... largest ratings the world has ever seen or will probably ever see.

The point being Mr Trump is irrational, so there is no telling what he will do, and all I am saying is everything is on the table (at least the military and judicial think tanks which have considered these very things agree with me (or I with them) .... ).
I liked some of the interviews .... completely gaslit

these folks would not know or identify the truth or a fact if gnawing their noses off.

the con is alive and well in America and there are about 70M marks waiting to be suckered by the next con man.
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I liked some of the interviews .... completely gaslit

these folks would not know or identify the truth or a fact if gnawing their noses off.

the con is alive and well in America and there are about 70M marks waiting to be suckered by the next con man.


Show of hands..
Who here’s a Russiagater?
Russiagate????

If Sec Clinton or Pres Obama or Pres Bush or Pres Clinton had what the Trump campaign had done, with Russians stumbling all over them, and then, have not one, but many people lie about their contacts and obfuscate (think obstruction of an investigation) I would hope, to whatever god you pray to, the FBI would have opened an investigation into the possibility of a criminal conspiracy leading to national security risks of unparalleled proportions. It had nothing to do with WHO HE IS, but had everything to do with WHAT HE DID!!!!!!

If anyone is OK with that .... raise your hand.
We don't know that anything illegal really happened. There was an investigation, nothing really came of it.
yes ... the point was the predication of the investigation ... not the results. I even-handedly would have investigated anyone, including God if he or they ran a campaign and had one of our primary political "enemies" among their midst. Unfortunately the investigation turned into an obstruction of an investigation rather than evidence of any criminal conspiracy. Remember, Mueller did not find ENOUGH evidence of a criminal enterprise or to put it another way, there was not enough evidence to indict (if they could have). Also remember they did not get some amount of evidence and some folks lied, according to Mueller.

Now imagine what is happening in the WH as we speak ... Trump's attorney knew the Ukraine call was a problem so he ordered it buried in a secret server ... what are they doing to other "problems"? .... is there any reason not to suspect there are other problems???

The sleaze of corruption drips from his very face.
Originally Posted By: Greger
We don't know that anything illegal really happened. There was an investigation, nothing really came of it.

Actually we know from the 400-page Mueller Report that Trump wanted a back channel to Putin, a means of communicating secretly beyond the view of the public or the U.S. government, that Trump actively sought the Russian government’s assistance during the 2016 election. Despite Trump and his sycophant’s claims to the contrary, it is clear that the Trump campaign was eager to work with the Russian government in 2016.

The Mueller report detailed 10 instances of obstruction of justice that would be criminal, were he not the president and, so, immune from indictment.

Mueller’s  investigation, produced five guilty pleas and indictments of 14 others - including 13 Russians who worked to help elect Trump as well as the former chairman of Trump’s campaign, Paul Manafort.

Mueller didn't charge Trump with a crime believing that sitting presidents can't be indicted. Mueller left the indictment up to Congress - which did nothing with the information. The House impeached, and the Senate acquitted for events unrelated to the Mueller Report.


Add to a growing list of serious people considering the question of what to do if the current occupant of the WH refuses to leave (claiming he is the @realpresidentDonald and PE Biden is a fake wannabe) former SS and DHS officials. Gee seems like there are a bunch of folks who have taken my concerns seriously enough to have actually considered them ...

A tip of the hat to LogT for suggesting the SS evicts trespassers. Unfortunately their primary mandate is to protect the president. So do they knock down the doors to evict a trespasser? What is the protocol?

My thought is anything resembling having a contingent of law enforcement or military types physically take the occupant out of the WH smacks of a coup. While I would like to see his corruption removed from the WH, I have to agree that is not the way to do it.

I have advocated for some time, people or entities with standing should have been filing suits directed to the SC for guidance into the many Constitutional issues the current occupant has exposed. I don't expect the current or succeeding Congresses to address the issues. I just don't understand why they would want to faced with the ever increasing possibility of even more noxious, corrupt people being elected and creating more Constitutional crises. There may be an inflection point for which the Republic will lose it's resiliency, and collapse.
Originally Posted By: rporter314
My thought is anything resembling having a contingent of law enforcement or military types physically take the occupant out of the WH smacks of a coup. While I would like to see his corruption removed from the WH, I have to agree that is not the way to do it.

I think if they just block pizza delivery for a week, then leave a trail of Big Macs and Diet Coke to a TV blaring Tucker Carlson placed under a heavy box (held up on one side with a stick) they could trap him and let the Fish and Wildlife Service transport him back to the wilds of Siberia. Then Putin could hunt him for sport, half naked on the back of his Ghengis Khan breed of Cossack pony.
Originally Posted By: rporter314
My thought is anything resembling having a contingent of law enforcement or military types physically take the occupant out of the WH smacks of a coup. While I would like to see his corruption removed from the WH, I have to agree that is not the way to do it.

The US military does not get involved in our domestic disputes. That is for LE to handle. This is why SecDef Esper was fired - because he would not send in the military as fatass Trump wanted in June when Trump pulled his DC protest stunt and walked to a church and held-up a Bible for that photo-op.
Originally Posted By: rporter314
A..So do they knock down the doors to evict a trespasser? What is the protocol?

S.W.A.T. or S.S. could put a red laser beam on this forehead - that would work for me.

smile
Maybe the simplest way to evict him, is to arrest him just after Biden is sworn in. Trump would no longer be President, so he could be indicted for those 10 Obstruction of Justice counts as Mueller said in testimony to Congress. (That's rather important: Mueller said it was up to Congress if they wanted to impeach him, but he also said his indictment would have to wait until he was out of office. NOT "never".)

The Secret Service could continue to protect him as an ex-President, as the FBI arrested him, and took him into custody. They would just have to do it in federal courtrooms and detention facilities.

Or maybe he manages to get pardoned, so DC cops have to arrest him to face charges in New York. Secret Service can go along in the extradition van.
see .... not as easy as ... o yeah he will no longer be president on Jan 20

maybe he will run in 2024 and we will get a rerun

what a hoot ... white house reality conducted by none other than a former occupant ... what a ratings bonanza

for he is the Kwisatz Haderach
Originally Posted By: rporter314
see ...maybe he will run in 2024 and we will get a rerun...

Trump will die in NY State prison first. smile
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