Capitol Hill Blue
Posted By: perotista Wokeness - 04/28/21 03:56 PM
Here's an article from James Caraville. I have followed him probably since the Carter years when he first appeared on shows like Washington Week, McLaughin group, etc and then later on CNN. I'm interested to see what you all think of his interview and what he had to say about Wokeness.

“Wokeness is a problem and we all know it”
James Carville on the state of Democratic politics.

https://www.vox.com/22338417/james-carville-democratic-party-biden-100-days
Posted By: jgw Re: Wokeness - 04/28/21 05:58 PM
He is flat out right. I have been preaching that one for years. I have no idea of the solution but I do know they have people in charge that have been at it for a very long time. They have been in charge of a mess that has not changed much either. I often wonder what would happen if they had somebody in charge who actually had a plan and was willing to get it done. All that being said, its unlikely that's gonna happen.

The Woke thing has always confused. I think its what was once thought of as being "with-it", maybe "cool" but maybe not. One of them mysterious things.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 04/28/21 07:14 PM
Wokeness is nothing more than awareness of what's going on around us.

Recognizing racial and economic inequalities.

Recognizing that the effects of climate change are going to be devastating.

Recognizing the gay and transgendered people have the same rights as everyone else.

Recognizing that masks and social distancing were and still are needed.

It appears Carville wants everyone to go back to sleep...bury their heads in the sand and vote for democrats.

But without wokeness the democratic party is no different from the republicans...
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 04/28/21 08:01 PM
I think what James was getting at is stupid things and sayings like Defund the Police. Most Americans like their police, they don't want to see their police done away with. A choice of words can make all the difference come election time. One reason Republicans were able to pick up 14 house seats is the fact they like their police and were afraid if the Democrats won, their police force would cease to exist. These folks voted for Biden, but voted republican down ballot to keep their existing police force.

Now who ever heard of communities of color? Why not just say black neighborhoods. Then everyone knows what the heck your talking about. I think many Democrats, progressives in particular forget that politics is the art of the possible. They continue to push things that don't stand a snowball's chance in Hades. Stuff most Americans oppose or I should say may support if it was worded differently and presented in plain English instead of very stylish jargon the average American doesn't understand.

I'm trying to remember how Reagan put it. He granted amnesty to 3 million illegals. But he didn't call it amnesty. He called it 'legalization." His act passed. A survey at the time showed a majority of Americans against granting amnesty, but a majority had no problem with legalization. A play on words for sure, but it worked.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 04/28/21 08:50 PM
Has The Democratic Party come out in favor of defunding the police?

Has Joe Biden mentioned defunding the police n his first hundred days?

What's the difference between a neighborhood and a community? Is community another word we need to remove from the lexicon because voters are too stupid to understand it?

We used to call it the "Quarters".

Let's don't legalize the foriegn interlopers! Just give them documents so they can be properly taxed.

Who the hell is calling for the defunding of police? I think the point is to de-militarize the police so maybe they'll quit acting like black people are the enemy who must be killed.
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 04/29/21 12:33 AM
Why then can't the Democrats say that? Why always defund the police. That's on the news all the time. When one hears that, how are they suppose to take it? This is what Carville was talking about. Coming up with slogans and saying things that they don't mean, that has one meaning to them, but entirely different to others.

What does defund mean? Prevent from continuing to receive funds. So defund the police means one thing to most Democrats,de-militarize the police in your words. But to others especially independents who can't read Democratic minds, it means to stop funding the police. Who ever came up with that slogan was a complete idiot.

It's peoples perspectives, observations and hearings, hear this, see this, then think what you hear and see is what is meant.

I hear that Biden doesn't support defunding the police, that Democrats don't support defunding the police, but that is what the Democrats on TV and in the news are saying. Yeah, just saying that cost them 14 house seats last election.

Just a simple question, why not say what you mean? Reorganize, retrain, change the way they operate, something akin to that instead of defund the police? This is what Carville was getting at. You can't get upset at people if they take what you say is what you mean.

Using phrases like defund the police, this is what you end up with.

Fewer than 1 in 5 support 'defund the police' movement, USA TODAY/Ipsos Poll finds

From the article: Only 18% of respondents supported the movement known as "defund the police," and 58% said they opposed it. Though white Americans (67%) and Republicans (84%) were much more likely to oppose the movement, only 28% of Black Americans and 34% of Democrats were in favor of it.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...pport-defund-police-movement/4599232001/

Did you get the end of that, in case you didn't, "only 28% of Black Americans and 34% of Democrats were in favor of it." Yet this is what you see on the news all the time, Democratic congress critters and other talking about, shouting defund the police.

Keep saying what you don't mean and you'll lose congress in 2022. The answer is simple, say what you mean. If you mean to de-militaize the police, to make them more responsible for their actions, then say it. Don't say, defund the police.

James is right.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 04/29/21 02:02 AM
I'm sorry, but I haven't heard anybody say that. Haven't seen it in any headlines or read any reports about anybody saying it.

Back during the riots I think somebody floated the idea. Not sure it was a democrat unless you define everyone who isn't a republican as a democrat. More likely a lefty of some sort.

Oh...wait! Carville is actually attacking the lefties isn't he...?

The foolish young social justice warriors who don't understand just how important it is to maintain the status quo!
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 04/29/21 12:42 PM
No. what Carville and I are saying is rather simple, say what you mean.

It's the slogan itself that is defeatist, not the idea. Most folks will take defund to mean defund, not reform. A slogan of Reform the police in my opinion would be much more popular, much more able to attract supporters, having more people to to recognize the problem and do something about it.

Defund, doing away with funding of the police isn't something most Americans want. Words have meaning. In this case defund the police as you pointed out, doesn't mean defund the police. But reform and make them more responsible for their actions.

So why not say that and have a slogan that implies and means that. Not one that is opposite of the original meaning? The SJW's don't realize how they are hurting their own cause with that slogan since most Americans like their local police and support their local police.

It isn't keeping the status quo, it all about saying what you mean.

I'll add this, I don't think we're holding the right people responsible for the police actions. It's the local officials who hire the police, who train the police, who set and supposedly enforce the rules and regulations the police operate under, who fund the police, who pay their salary, who appoint the police chiefs and approve promotions and much more. Yet, we're giving these elected and appointed officials a free ride. they're in charge, so perhaps it's them who are failing and letting the police run amok in some localities.
Posted By: jgw Re: Wokeness - 04/29/21 05:16 PM
I think you are right on! They just have to keep on running their mouths and losing elections and then whining about it. Its very strange. The Democrats used to have some control over their party and controlled the stupid stuff but, apparently, no longer. Eventually, with luck, they might figure it out but, right now, they are determined to "defund the police", have public arguments about silly things, claim the mantle of socialists, and brag about how Biden is the furthest left of any president in history, etc. its loonacy and I fear there is more to come.

Then there is the argument over whether individual police or the entire force should be sued. I really don't understand that one. Right now, when a cop goes rogue, and gets caught, and the city pays the bill. I think the argument is actually a way to get cities off the hook.

At the risk of repeating myself there are millions of tax dollars are spent on rogue cops every year and, I guess, the cities don't care or they would have fixed the problem. On the other hand it seems, now, a good number of them seem to be starting to do that (a good thing). Its kinda interesting. The cities are very careful not to mention the costs of not fixing their police problems. On the other hand those trying to fix our healthcare system are, finally, noting how expensive our existing system is and how our outcomes are not all that great - finally! (I think those two thing just might get it done?)
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 04/29/21 06:53 PM
Winning and losing elections is all about messaging and presenting your message in a manner that is easily understandable. People must know what you mean, understand what you mean. Defund is not Reform. One also has to hold the elected official who are responsible for their city's police force accountable also.

I'll give Atlanta credit. That city has added funding to their city police. Added additional training, add yearly mandatory classes, recruited from the neighborhood that the new police officer will patrol. Increased the salary of police among other things. I think it's working. Time will tell on that. But is was like a light bulb went off in the mayor's office and city council. It was hey, we hire these folks, we train them, we give them the rules and regulations they must follow, we pay them, we appoint the police chief and other officials, it's our job to ensure they behave, act, police, in the way we want them to.

You're always going to have a few bad cops, even with the best oversight. But one needs to act as soon as one is seen, found. If the elected officials of Minneapolis, Portland, Louisville realized the police force belongs to them, they're responsible for it, perhaps what happened wouldn't have. Do these police forces run themselves without any oversight? It sure seems so at times.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 04/30/21 04:34 PM
And once again I say that no one is using that slogan.

If they were I'd agree completely with you.

It appears to me that the right wing propaganda machine is saying that Democrats are saying defund the police when, in fact, no one is saying it.

And then you see it on teevee because the media likes to stir up a ruckus.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 04/30/21 04:44 PM
Police departments are locally funded. Any police reform has to happen at the municipal level.

I love my local police! I want them fully funded.

I don't want them bullying citizens and I don't want them randomly shooting POCs. And I don't want them affiliated with far right anti government organizations.

Like the Republican Party.
Posted By: jgw Re: Wokeness - 04/30/21 05:44 PM
Sorry, about every other time they show marchers there always seems to be a sign to "defund the police". Next time you see marchers on the tv look for it.
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 04/30/21 06:28 PM
I agree with jgw on this. I can also remember seeing folks like AOC, Omar, Tlaib and some senators also coming out in favor of defunding the police.

The only Democrat I can remember seeing on TV coming out against was Manchin, he said that's not who we are as Democrats and we don't believe in defunding the police.

I've yet to see Biden, Pelosi, Schumer or any other Democratic Party leader come out and state they're not for defunding the police. This of course could be the very outspoken who get TV time because they very outspoken over riding the more quiet rebuttals But the perception among the voters is there, right, wrong or indifferent. Especially independents.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 04/30/21 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by jgw
Sorry, about every other time they show marchers there always seems to be a sign to "defund the police". Next time you see marchers on the tv look for it.
Let me remind you that I do not have a television and have not had one since 1998.

And just who the hell are these rioters carrying signs? Do they determine democratic policy? Do they wield any power beyond rioting in the streets and waving banners?

I expect there have been a lot more Trumpies waving confederate flags and Nazi flags. Does this mean the Republican Party wants to own slaves and kill Jews? Has McConnell come out and said they don't want to own slaves or kill Jews? I don't recall Trump ever coming out and saying that either...so I guess they do.

Have Biden supporters stormed the capital demanding that the police be defunded?

There is absolutely no movement within the Democratic Party or it's voting members to defund the police.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 04/30/21 10:17 PM
Oh...and Obama is going to take your guns too!
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Wokeness - 04/30/21 10:20 PM
Even the most extreme social democrats and socialists in congress are not in favor of abolishing the police. They just want them to clean up there act. Like stop killing POC for ridiculous reasons, stop with all the mistaken no-knock warrants that kill innocent people, stop shooting at cars driving away when homes and schools are in their field of fire, stop killing mentally disturbed people when non-lethal means of control would do. stop stealing people's money and stuff when they have not been convicted of a crime that is connected to that money or stuff, stop killing or tazing kids, etc.

The list is so long it's easier to say "defund", but that's not what anybody wants.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 04/30/21 11:04 PM
PIA...you posted this in another thread but I think it fit's here too.

Defunding the police is just a made up scandal.

Made Up Scandals
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 04/30/21 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
Even the most extreme social democrats and socialists in congress are not in favor of abolishing the police. They just want them to clean up there act. Like stop killing POC for ridiculous reasons, stop with all the mistaken no-knock warrants that kill innocent people, stop shooting at cars driving away when homes and schools are in their field of fire, stop killing mentally disturbed people when non-lethal means of control would do. stop stealing people's money and stuff when they have not been convicted of a crime that is connected to that money or stuff, stop killing or tazing kids, etc.

The list is so long it's easier to say "defund", but that's not what anybody wants.
Fine, easier to say just defund and it's defund that resonating out there. How about a simple Reform the police.

Now whether or not greger sees this on TV, others do. Folks see rioters with signs defund the police and they equate that, right, wrong or indifferent to the Democrats. Why, congressional democrats with loud mouths are always on TV shouting it. You can have 90% or 95% of Democrats against defunding, but when none speak up outside of Manchin which isn't listen to as he not a leader and gets very little air time, people will equate and draw their own conclusions, obtain their own perspectives base on what is observable and heard.

Made up scandal, perhaps. Even could be right wing propaganda. But the Democrats who are in charge, who would get huge press and tv coverage are staying silent on defunding the police.

All it would take is for Biden in one of his speeches or interviews to come right out and state, he's against defunding the police as are almost all democrats. So why hasn't he done this?

If he did, I'd wager 60% of America would believe him and this defund the police would go away.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Wokeness - 05/01/21 03:22 AM
Actually, Biden has always said he's against defunding the police every time it's come up. He's very well known for this. You must not be paying attention.
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 05/01/21 01:17 PM
Perhaps not, I don't watch TV news as I consider it all political propaganda these days, especially on cable news networks. You're probably right as I found this.

The “defund the police” movement has placed a wedge among Democrats on Capitol Hill: The campaign is backed by leading progressives in the party, while more moderate members have spoken out against the initiative.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/542108-poll-finds-only-18-percent-support-defund-the-police

So those Democrats who spoke out apparently are being heard or the perception that Democrats are all for Defunding could be those in favor have a much louder voice. Anyway you look at it, the perception exists especially among independents who don't pay much attention if any to the daily goings on in Washington or the political front in general.

Now you may not like that perception, that perception could be completely wrong, but it exist and denying that it exist is an exercise in futility. Perhaps a new strategy is needed or perhaps a strategy of saying what one means. If you mean reform, get those who hog the media spotlight to say reform and not defund if that is possible.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 05/01/21 04:52 PM
Quote
Now you may not like that perception, that perception could be completely wrong, but it exist and denying that it exist is an exercise in futility.

The purpose of right wing propaganda is to create the perception that democrats are pedophile cannibal child traffickers and worse. Looks like it's working.

You guys better vote Republican next time or you'll find yourself with no police to call next time you need one. And George Soros will be eating your grandkids sliced thin.

There is only a thin blue line between you and people of color demanding what is yours and smoking pot in your neighborhood.

They're socialists too!

Trump DeSantis 2024
Posted By: jgw Re: Wokeness - 05/01/21 05:08 PM
Let me try again. Stuff like "defund the police" means, to a LOT of people, that Democrats want to simply shut down the police departments nationwide. This being the case these people do not vote for the Democrats because the Democrats want to get rid of ALL police. You can talk about what they really mean until you are blue in the face and you will fail. Stuff like this is why the Democrats lost all those house seats. in the last election. For those of us that would prefer Democratic candidates to Republican candidates such stuff is just plain stupid, on the part of marchers, Democratic idiots everywhere, etc.

OH, Biden has consistently been against 'defunding' or getting rid of the police!

I suspect hat you have no TV by choice. That's just fine but, for those of us who are lazy, its one of our main sources of information. I do wonder, however, just where you do get some of your information as some of what you say is simply not true. The Biden/defund thing is an example of that. In this particular case I am not sure that your information came from Republicans. If you are getting stuff off the net there are ways to know who is saying what. There are, for instance, free services which will tell you the political leanings of sites.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 05/01/21 11:25 PM
JGW...I'm pretty well versed in how to use the internet. And I know what is reliable and what is not.

Television is not a reliable source of information.

There is NO movement within the Democratic Party to defund the police.

Pretty good article in The Hill about it. But I don't suppose you've looked farther than your teevee screen for accurate information.

All you've got is some demonstrators waving signs last year. And some reporters trying to make it into something.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 05/01/21 11:33 PM
Now, if you wanna talk about police reforms, there has been some movement on that in light of recent brazen murders by the police.

But once again, most of that has to happen at the municipal level. The Feds aint got much to do with it.

Republicans...to a man, believe that police should be able to kill anyone at any time for any reason at all.

Democrats believe it's worth looking into some reforms.

And so republicans shriek that Democrats want to defund the police
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 05/02/21 12:32 AM
Well, I let you two have at. Myself, I'll follow how independents view this defunding the police debate. Whether or not they believe the democrats want to defund the police or reform the police. Since they, independents make up 41% of the electorate, their perceptions on this may well decide the 2022 midterms. Whether or not it's true is totally irrelevant. Elections are basically beauty contests to those who don't pay much attention to the daily grind, the ins and outs of politics and party's positions.

I agree with greger that the democratic party, most of the democratic Party doesn't want to do away with the police. They want the police reformed. The problem is among the unwashed masses who just take what they see and hear and then draw their conclusions, usually on TV, they see it differently. They perceive the Democrats as being anti-police. Be that from Republican propaganda or from TV news where they see AOC, Omar, Walters, etc shouting defund the police or whatever is totally irrelevant.

I'll leave you with an article from Slate, certainly not a right wing magazine.

For two weeks, Democrats have been arguing over why they didn’t do better in the election. Was it socialism? The Green New Deal? Bad organizing online? These disputes will rage on. But there’s one lesson on which all sides should agree, because the evidence is clear, and the remedy is semantic: Stop saying “Defund the police.”

and the last paragraph

Policing needs to be reformed. That’s clear from the killings of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and too many others. And you can make a strong case that if we were to invest wisely in education, employment, mental health, and controlling drug abuse, we wouldn’t have to pay cops to deal with problems that are better managed by social services. But “Defund the police” doesn’t help us make that case. It sets us back.

“Defund the Police” Is a Self-Destructive Slogan
Especially if you want to reform law enforcement.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/defund-police-slogan-election-polls-democrats.html
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 05/02/21 02:25 AM
Quote
“Defund the Police” Is a Self-Destructive Slogan
Especially if you want to reform law enforcement.

And that's why no one is using it.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Wokeness - 05/02/21 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by Greger
Quote
“Defund the Police” Is a Self-Destructive Slogan
Especially if you want to reform law enforcement.

And that's why no one is using it.
We live in a time of easily manufactured reality.

No, really...
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 05/02/21 01:14 PM
Yes, since each individual is different, each with different experiences and ideas, beliefs, views, so each would views things differently and have their own reality or perception of the world and events.Each has his own biases and views the world through their own eyes. Each persons own reality is seen through their eyes.

How one views politics is no different, we can live in totally different realities of our political world around us and view it completely different. With my background, 46 years of the military, 21 years active duty, 26 working for the army as a civilian, being basically non-partisan and never associating or belonging to a political party, my view of the political world will be different, I view political reality through non-partisan eyes and thought.

I'll acknowledge that a lot of folks have been influenced by the slogan defund the police, that they take that slogan to mean exactly that. That a lot of folks associate defund the police with the Democratic Party, that is a reality in my political world. Even the polls show that and how they voted in 2020 also shows that. It's a belief, a perspective, beliefs and perspectives don't have to be right or wrong, true or false, they're individual conclusions based on what they have seen through their own eyes/ They do form realities at least from their perspective and beliefs along with their conclusions and personal thoughts. .

I think it's very real that defund the police was one of the main reason that approximately 5 million people would vote for Biden and then vote for their Republican congressional candidate which caused the Democrats to lose 14 house seats while winning the presidency by 7 million votes. For me that is the reality of what happened. It's also a reality in my political world that a lot of folks still associate the Democratic party with defunding the police. Your reality might be different, which is okay in my world.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 05/02/21 02:24 PM
I suppose "Raise the Minimum Wage" is also a self defeating slogan?

Many are afraid prices would soar, businesses would fold, the economy would suffer, and for what?

Paying top wages to entry level employees who don't deserve it?

Medicare for All"... Another self defeating slogan.

Giving top notch private medical care to poor people who can't afford it?

And taking YOUR hard earned tax dollars to do it!

"Make America Great Again"

Now there's a slogan we can all get behind!
Posted By: jgw Re: Wokeness - 05/02/21 06:26 PM
Pretty amazing for me. You have decided that there is no way the feds can do anything about fixing police problems. This, in spite of the fact hat both Dems and Republicans are, right now, trying to get that done. As far as I can tell they are in agreement about no-knocks, strangle holds, etc. Their main problem seems to be over whether the individual policeman or the police force can be sued. I don't even care about that as suing the political group responsible for the police, the city, county or state, basically, gets sued, right now and gets to pay and its up to them to stop it and they haven't (which is why the feds are entering the fray).

I used to think that Trump disasters were due to Trump and his ability to know EVERYTHING! Now I realize that BOTH sides have those that know everything. If I have learned anything, over the years, is that when you meet or know somebody actually believes they know everything the wise thing is to run like hell.

Medicare for all is a defeating slogan. The trick, I think, is to get control and do the job. I actually think there is hope for our healthcare system its just not being dealt with by running mouth using crap language that gives offense. I also realize that you really don't get it because you know all things so I am done trying.

Have a nice day!
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 05/02/21 11:03 PM
Raise the minimum wage, no. Defund the police, yes. 55% of all Americans support raising the minimum wage, 34% oppose. Defund the Police, 18% support, 58% oppose.

Medicare for all is a bit tricky. So much depends on the plan. Medicare for all replacing all private insurance, 40% in favor 55% against. Medicare for all while retaining all existing private health insurance, allowing each individual a choice, private or government, 67% in favor 29% oppose.

What then develops is a war of propaganda. Those in favor of Medicare for all, will cite the later percentages. Those oppose, the former percentages while neither tells the truth that there is a huge difference in the plans and how folks view each. In other words, no one is being honest, but one should never expect honesty in a politician or in politics.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 05/03/21 04:42 PM
Quote
Pretty amazing for me. You have decided that there is no way the feds can do anything about fixing police problems. This, in spite of the fact hat both Dems and Republicans are, right now, trying to get that done

Like I said, most of the police reform needs to happen at the municipal level. Lawmakers can put a few guidelines in place, do a few investigations and get a few headlines.

The feds do not control your local police. They do not control your county sheriff. They do not control your state police.

Hiring and policy is entirely up to the governments in charge of the various law enforcement agencies.

JGW, all you need to do to convince me I'm wrong is offer up proof.

Maybe a link showing a Democratic elected official supporting a movement to defund the police?

Have you read AOCs response when she was asked about defunding the police?

I didn't think so.

Do you understand the history of the "defund" movement?

Have you read the petition?

All you're offering is a knee jerk reaction to a teevee show.
Posted By: jgw Re: Wokeness - 05/03/21 06:56 PM
I kinda like a slightly different way to get some of this stuff done. Basically its what Biden did. He didn't propose most of which he now has when he was running. He understood that it would probably lose him the election. Its odd but the way to go. Have a plan, kinda refer to it whilst running, and THEN get the job done when you win. Biden's main problem is that he didn't win by enough to gain seats in the congress. That wasn't his fault so much as the fault of the Democratic party which doesn't seem to have the skill, capacity or will to control its members mouths. Their message is a mess. I even think they know it, just don't have the gumption, I guess.

I am for a healthcare system which is universal and available to everybody. I am, pretty much, in agreement with most of his other stuff. I also think that there is a lot of stuff which won't make it and suspect that is part of the biden plans. My point is that its not very good to talk about everything until AFTER election. Before that just WIN! (something the Dems simply don't understand. They talk to each other a lot but hey are elected by the middle and, sometimes, I swear the Dems just want to piss them off).
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 05/03/21 08:53 PM
Perhaps not letting the American people know what you have up your sleeve is the main reason for most presidents's massive losses in their first midterm. Americans think they elected one person, but get another once the winner takes office. Which basically means, Biden and all other presidents who do this have 2 years before they become neutered with the other party taking control of the House. This happened in 1994, 2010 and 2018. The only reason it didn't happen in 2002 was 9-11 happened. But Bush lost 33 seats in his second midterm and all of congress in 2006.


There's plenty of support for reforming the police, very little for defunding the police. Plenty of support for medicarel as an option for everyone to choose from along with their existing insurance. Give me a choice, Blue Cross, Kaiser, Medicare, let me choose. But not for Medicare for all replacing all existing insurance leaving me with no choice but to go on Medicare..

So how do the Democrats convince the people, especially independents, swing voters that they mean reform and not defund? That they want Medicare to be an option to existing health insurance. The problem, independents, swing voters, couch potatoes in greger's phase for them don't pay much if any attention to politics.

They hear the slogan defund the police which many democrats have shouted, they assume the Democrats mean defund, do away with, not reform. They hear the slogan medicare for all, they assume the Democrats want to do away with all existing health insurance and put everyone, 100% of all American on government owned and operated medicare. It's hey, I like my health insurance or I like my employer provided health insurance. I want to keep my health insurance, I don't want to go on Medicare.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Or what we have here is a few loudmouth, heavily covered by the media congressional democrats blaring away with slogans most Americans don't agree with.At least the couch potatoes normally called independents who don't don't give a hog's squeal about politics until election time.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 05/04/21 01:40 AM
Quote
a few loudmouth, heavily covered by the media congressional democrats blaring away with slogans most Americans don't agree with.

Perhaps you could provide a link to one of these loudmouth democrats blaring away with slogans?

Otherwise...it didn't happen.
Posted By: perotista Re: Wokeness - 05/04/21 02:12 AM
LOL, okay, defund the police didn't happen. The problem is there's a lot of folks out there who heard the same and who voted against Democratic congressional candidates because of it. All google give me now is Democrats running away from the slogan of defunding the police.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021...a-most-democrats-dont-want-to-talk-about

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/548348-Democrats-brace-for-new-defund-the-police-attacks

https://theintercept.com/2020/12/07/defund-police-qualified-immunity/

https://www.vox.com/2020/6/14/21290877/democrats-defund-police-omar-clyburn

and a thousand more as the democrats continue to run away from and don't want to talk about defunding the police. Why? Most Americans know what defund means and they know what reform means, but the slogan of defund the police was used and not reform. A huge communications problem especially for coach potatoes.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Wokeness - 05/04/21 12:26 PM
Four pages in - I’ve been super busy and didn’t suffer a strong enough case of opinionitis to take the time to comment. But here’s a summary that is coming into focus from the fog that fits my personal memory of the Great Defund Debacle:

When I first heard the call to “defund the police” I thought, “That’s a stupid thing to say”, but it wasn’t at all clear to me who was saying it. The chatter was almost instantaneous trying to explain that defund meant reduce support for aggressive and punitive policing and reprogramming significant funds to preemptive and treatment oriented actions for non-criminals. Excellent strategy, but ‘defund’ was not a good description.

In my recollection, the source of the ‘defund’ call never became clear, but it was repeated over and over in the press. It was definitely red meat for right-wingers, though, and as we all know, righties love to barbecue.

I also have the vague recollection that “woke” appeared first as a self-description used by Trumpers to elevate themselves above the sleeping masses of ignorant old school Republicans (not to mention the evil liberals who are an even lower life form than John McCain). One day I awoke from night’s sleep and saw that ‘woke’ had replaced ‘elitist’ as the top insult for people who still had some ability to think rationally and who were foolishly seeking polite discussion and debate with others. Very quickly that morphed into a general defamation of all liberalish people, but with a ‘defund’-like meaning that used to only apply to woo-woo Santa Fe style Libs.

Enter James Carville, who loves nothing better than to scrap with idiots in after closing time street fights with the hold my beer and watch this crowd. JC is incensed (rightly, I think) by a couple of words that are being bent and sharpened into nasty little weapons of political warfare, and wants war.

The fundamental problem here is that liberals (in my perception) are more in the camp of the peaceable and reasonable tribe, and not generally very gifted at street fighting, wanton lying, and general sociopathic dalliances. Carville is an outlier, which seems to color his opinion on these matters. He desperately wants to fight fire with fire and is frustrated that his chosen tribe is just not that into it.

The deeper question is, “How do you fight stupid?”
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 05/04/21 07:46 PM
Quote
LOL, okay, defund the police didn't happen. The problem is there's a lot of folks out there who heard the same and who voted against Democratic congressional candidates because of it. All google give me now is Democrats running away from the slogan of defunding the police.

The "Defund the Police" movement has been happening since the 60s. If you cared you could find out what it's about. If you read AOCs response to the issue you would see that it's an elegant solution which could work anywhere. In fact it is already working in practically every affluent white community.

But what you have been saying from the start(without any proof) is that it was a slogan taken up by Democrats. Now that you've finally Googled it you can see that every Democrat stepped away from it.

I've been trying to tell you this for days.

It's a BLM slogan, it comes with a petition and a list of demands. Sensible demands for equal treatment by law enforcement. The slogan and the protests worked. There is currently some bipartisan discussion of police reforms taking place in congress.

Is this slogan your latest attempt to explain the 2020 election? Have you got any proof that "there's a lot of folks out there who heard the same and who voted against Democratic congressional candidates because of it."

Or are you making that up too? Did the exit polls specifically ask voters about why they voted against democrats? Did they say it was because of the defund the police slogan?

People hated Trump, even republicans and right leaning independents.

That's why they voted against him but for other republicans. The election was a moratorium on Donald Trump, not offbeat political slogans that offended the uneducated masses.
Posted By: Greger Re: Wokeness - 05/04/21 07:59 PM
Quote
The deeper question is, “How do you fight stupid?”

Education is a good start. Living wages and decent healthcare would go a long way to help too.
Posted By: jgw Re: Wokeness - 05/05/21 06:29 PM
First, Biden seems to have a lot of support for what he is doing and he hasn't started any wars and actually seems to be getting out of a war that has cost more than 2 trillion dollars. I suspect that the twenty-year war and getting out probably will need more explanation after we leave and the women of Afghanistan get shut down. That, however, is not our problem. We tried, we failed and we are in good company (like Alexander the Great and the United Kingdom and Russia). Afghanistan is not called "the graveyard of empires" for nothing. We have proven, for a long time, that we are simply REALLY bad at Nation Building. Hopefully we have learned our lesson.

We are being told, these days, that our drone supply now makes up a third of our air military. If Afghanistan acts out we can send over 100 armed drones and just blow the hell out of them thereby; saving money, not spending our lives, saving big bucks, making a point, etc.
© ReaderRant