Capitol Hill Blue
Posted By: logtroll A Question of Culture - 10/10/21 11:39 PM
The Navajo thread (thank you Mellow) got me to thinking about culture. I have had multiple 'revelations' while interacting with Indian cultures about what, exactly, is MY culture. (Interesting fact - most Native Americans I know are fine with the term "Indian", even though it is an artifact of a massive error of ignorance by European "explorers").

Fact is, I don't feel like I have a culture, at least not one steeped in meaningful traditions or history.

Near as I can describe the essentials of my culture, it would be "consumerism", or Capitalism", or "industrialism".

Can anybody hep a feller out?
Posted By: Ken Condon Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 12:25 AM
This is true Loggy. I have a friend in the area here who at one time was the tribal chief of the Klamath/Modoc tribe down in the Klamath Falls area. He called himself an Indian and referred to his tribal members and others as Indians. He knew full well the origin of the word but he was good with it.

Most Native Americans that I have associated with over my lifetime refer to themselves as Indians and it does not bother them. Maybe the younger generation might be more sensitive to it, I do not know.
Posted By: Ken Condon Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 12:27 AM
Char Coalian.
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 12:35 AM
Hi log, I’ve given this some thought, clearly not enough but:

I think you have lived most of your life in the American west, so that culture belongs to you.

I know you have grown up in Christian communities (including LDS) so that is your culture as well.

I don’t know whether or not biochar led you to the ecological/green world or the other way around, but that is also your culture.

And by your culture I mean I don’t mean you’re an active part of it; I mean that to some extent you are familia4 with it and understand it.

Unless that was a rhetorical question, in which case I’m way overexplaining and your only culture is the culture of the Hatch.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 01:47 AM
Everybody has a culture. Fish don't see the water they swim in.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 02:18 AM
Just fishing around here. The situations where this has come up were all awarenesses of Indian cultures that have a genuine history, a long connection with their people and customs, and a historical connection to a landscape. Roots. In each instance I became aware of a living in a rootless non-culture. (The first time I experienced this was during a five day Ford Foundation Community Based Forestry retreat hosted by the Gullah people on St. Helena island off the coast of North Carolina. During a breakout group session a fellow traveler who happened to be a Nez Perce Indian was describing his cultural background, and it occurred to me that I didn’t really have one - I was a free agent, rootless - free to choose my own culture, but having no real building materials to make one out of.)

Seriously, what is the quintessential ’American’ culture - the culture of the invaders of the past 500 years? It appears to me to be one of conquest, exploitation, selfishness, and narcissism. Trumpism is the pinnacle of American culture.

I have been realizing for years that our problems cannot be solved without curing the flaws of our culture… the weird thing is that our culture is one of no culture - rootlessness.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
Everybody has a culture. Fish don't see the water they swim in.
So how would you describe American culture?
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 02:36 AM
Strictly speaking, though, rootlessness can be a culture - doesn’t that describe the Roma?

Is part of the problem, maybe, that you’re thinking in terms of a much newer culture than the ones you listed?

And I’m thinking I should have asked for your definition of culture.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by Mellowicious
Is part of the problem, maybe, that you’re thinking in terms of a much newer culture than the ones you listed?
Nah… I think the New American culture is basically one of exploitation. And it’s not that new.
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 02:51 AM
n other words, you’re venting! (Nothing wrong with that..)
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Mellowicious
And I’m thinking I should have asked for your definition of culture.
My stimulus is that my Indian colleagues could easily describe their culture, while I could not describe mine, except in terms of making money.
Posted By: Greger Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 01:41 PM
Quote
...my Indian colleagues could easily describe their culture, while I could not describe mine, except in terms of making money.

Most people of color have easily identifiable cultures. And most of those cultures involve being conquered by white men. White men, on the other hand, have only ever been conquered by other white men.

We white Americans left our culture in Europe, traded our religious and tribal cultures for a Middle Eastern variety, and perfected the worship of money. We have no real connection to the land, few blood ties, and we rattle around in our own heads with no real connection to humanity.

Our "culture" is far too young to really be called that because culture requires a connection to the world we live in.

Or perhaps ours is a culture of conquerers with nothing left to conquer.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Mellowicious
And I’m thinking I should have asked for your definition of culture.
Good question. I tried to cheat and look up a definition but didn’t find a satisfactory one to represent my rather vague notion for starting the topic.

Quote
Culture is a context that supports and guides behaviors and preferences without the need of critical thinking.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 11:12 PM
We are absolutely swimming in American culture! Like I said, fish are unaware of the water they swim in. It starts right from birth: For the past 7 decades or so, most Americans are born in hospitals. Not so in MANY other cultures. Baby boys are generally circumcised, Jewish or not. They used to be mostly bottle-fed, but most are not these days. Their mothers usually take maternity leave for some months but the length of time has shrunk from forever to a few months. All of these are cultural norms.

Babies are often christened or baptized. They have God Parents. Their mothers had baby showers. All cultural norms, not present in most other cultures. Children have constant supervision. They start school at 5 or 6, and attend until they are 17 or 18. They have chores, but few jobs until they are teens, but usually have allowances. Used to be only the children of the rich attended college, but in the last few decades there has been a lot more inclusivity. Used to be the only way poor kids could attend was by scholarship, but student loans are now the norm.

Young people have several relationships, mostly with the opposite sex before marriage. 70 years ago, homosexuality was criminal in most places, but that has become a cultural norm mostly. When young people do marry, it is mostly for love (not arranged marriage), and most couples have children after a few years. Unmarried procreation was cultural anathema some decades past, but more accepted now.

Most Americans have a vaguely Christian heritage, though fewer and fewer attend regular services or claim a particular church membership. This is VERY different from many other cultures. Some Americans have a Jewish heritage, but again there are a very wide variety of Jewish traditions, from Orthodox to atheist.

Americans mostly have expectations their medical care will be through insurance, government programs for the poor, or self-financed. This is very different from most other cultures where either single-payer of no health care at all is expected.

American couples have a high divorce rate. They don't have mistresses, but do have secret affairs. There are certain expectations for child custody and child support.

Work has a whole set of cultural expectations and many of those have become legal requirements. The list is long.

Almost universally, we expect Medicare at 65, and Social Security at 62-70 and for the rest of your life. When we die, we expect funerals, caskets, embalming, burial in a cemetery, but lately more are choosing cremation. When people are cremated, relatives often keep their ashes displayed in an urn, or spread the ashes someplace the deceased specified or enjoyed.

All of these things are elements of contemporary American culture. Just to give you examples of differences from other cultures: Inuits put old people on sea ice to die. Indians almost all have arranged marriages. Hispanics are seldom circumcised. Yazidis put their dead on the roof so vultures can eat them.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/11/21 11:29 PM
Seems pretty anemic and un-inspirational. This is from Mellow's Navajo topic:

Quote
As Miss Navajo Nation I hope to strengthen our relationships between our youth and our elders. In an evolving world we need to take the time to listen to our elders and carry on our stories, our traditions, our language, and our culture for the livelihood of the Navajo Nation.

Mission Statement
In keeping with Navajo culture and tradition, the role of Miss Navajo Nation is to exemplify the essence and characters of First Woman, White Shell Woman, and Changing Woman and to display leadership as the Goodwill Ambassador. Miss Navajo represents womanhood and fulfills the role of “grandmother, mother, aunt, and sister” to the Navajo people and therefore she can speak as a leader, teacher, counselor, advisor and friend. In March 1999, the Branch Chiefs of the Navajo Government agreed that one of the fundamental principles of the Navajo Governmental should be the preservation of the Navajo culture. It shall be the mission of the Office of Miss Navajo Nation to encourage every Navajo to assist in the preservation of Navajo culture and Miss Navajo Nation will represent the importance of Navajo Women with respect and honor.

Purpose
The purpose of the Office of Miss Navajo Nation is to assist Miss Navajo Nation with the scheduling of her itinerary, providing support services, chaperoning Miss Navajo Nation during travel, managing the administrative matters of the office and coordinating educational activities that include the history, tradition, and culture of the Navajo people.

Maybe you can help to suss out why one seems more like a culture than the other?
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/12/21 12:14 AM
I am submitting a request to Congress to have the national bird redesignated as the Cowbird.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/12/21 12:19 AM
The touchstone of American Culture:

Posted By: Greger Re: A Question of Culture - 10/12/21 12:36 PM
American "culture" is not just about money and greed. Hatred also plays an enormous role.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/12/21 03:01 PM
Nothing like a good enemy to make a person feel alive!
Posted By: Greger Re: A Question of Culture - 10/12/21 05:48 PM
So you see, we're steeped in American culture!

Posted By: jgw Re: A Question of Culture - 10/12/21 05:53 PM
A thought on churches and attendance therein. My wife dragged me to Rome a couple of years ago. Rome is a city of churches and we visited a pile of them. We went to other cities too and saw even more churches. As we did I listened to those with guides. I swear, except for Rome most of the old, huge cathedrals have been taken over by the cities as something for the tourists. After we got back I had to goto the doctor. She told me that she and her husband were also traveling in Europe as well. She also told me that they too had visited a lot of old churches. She also said that the cities/towns they visited also owned those churches.

I did some investigation. The churches of Europe no longer have flocks that support all those churches! That's why the cities involved now own them! Turns out that even some of the churches of Rome are owned by the city of Rome and not the catholic church - again, not enough church goers to pay for the churches but, I guess, the tourists do!

I live in a small town and we were almost famous, once, for the number of churches that we had. One on top of another. No longer, now a lot of those churches are second hand stores, businesses, etc. The Catholic church is still there but there is no priest and most of the Catholics have moved on to the Episcopal church (amongst other but that comes closest to what the Catholics are familiar with I guess) The Catholics are going to stick with priests without wives until they just melt away.

I have nothing to base it on but, I suspect, organized religion seems to be taking a hit in the world of white Christians these days.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/12/21 08:01 PM
Here is an article that puts a culture on display that is radically different from our money and hate obsessed American culture.

Bhutan
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: A Question of Culture - 10/12/21 08:57 PM
Quote
religion seems to be taking a hit in the world of white Christians these days.

That's why I said "vaguely Christian" in my post above. There certainly are full-fledged Christians who attend church services once a week or more, pray daily, perform missionary work, etc. (Like my niece!) But nowhere near the numbers of even 50 years ago. I realized this when my supposedly-Southern Baptist step-mother told me about her sincere belief in reincarnation: I guess Jesus (her personal savior) was overseeing the reincarnation process, because Heaven was getting too crowded.

And then there is Lucifer: One of Netflix's most popular series just ended after six seasons. In this series, Lucifer tires of Hell, and moves to Los Angeles. Opens a night club, hooks up with a cute police detective, and helps solve crimes for fun. He's all about punishment for sinners, and Hell is a place guilty people make for themselves to relive their worst moments in an endless loop. I bet more Americans believe in Lucifer's Hell, than Dante's.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/13/21 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by Greger
American "culture" is not just about money and greed. Hatred also plays an enormous role.
It just hit me that the word “culture” carries an implicit homogeneity. A culture is a large group of people who share beliefs and preferences - not just religion, but ethics, food, philosophy, lifestyle, etc. Cultures involve social responsibility and conformity - socialism.

The famous melting pot of “America” has not actually melted into a new culture, however. In spite of the high-minded words like “all men created equal”, and a conceited notion that opportunity exists for all (who have the gumption to compete and dominate the competition), the reality is that our dysfunctional cultural aspiration is anarchy - as seen clearly these days, “Nobody can tell ME what to do!” Fierce independence. Yet nobody is actually capable of true independence, nor would anybody want it if they had it. It’s a narcissistic delusion. That also explains the cult of Trump.

Money, greed, and hatred are natural expressions of such a culture (or more accurately, non-culture).
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/13/21 12:37 PM
I put this here instead of under an environmental topic because it is a model for the kind of culture we should aspire to.

At ease, disease... thar's fungus amongus!
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/13/21 04:18 PM
[Linked Image from newyorkupstate.com]
This reminds me of something, but cant quite place it! grin

TAT

Dont underestimate the power and reach of fungi. The weather here has spawned a very prolific crop of giant puffballs around here, and am experimenting with ways of preserving them for winter use. They are very favorful and very abundant, and have no dangerous look-alikes.

Fungi have been selected to feed on oil spills, and toxic wastes, and show great potential for environmental cleanups.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/13/21 05:58 PM
Looks like a real fun guy. How ya been, Taters?
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/13/21 11:39 PM
More like Tatters.
I find it painful to try to sit down and write when I have to consider all the grave situations in the political sphere.
Fortunately I have enough personal infrastructure action items t
o keep me busy enough to blot out too much doom-saying, New driveway, garage slab repairs, landscaping, new garage roof, brought out all of the tools including compressor for nail guns, hammer drill, and oxyacetylene torch. Not to mention fighting off climate change threats to routine veggie gardening.

Fungi have been particularly problematic with very moist summer. I guess I shouldn't complain with all those folks out West with severe droughts. All Norway Maple were denuded from Maple spot disease, but didnt effect Red Maples. Fusarium took out whole 4x8 raised bed of basil, after fortunately a huge early harvest. Cuke beetles killed all the cuke plants by infecting them with a bacterial systemic wilt, and a later fungal wilt cut the tomato season short.

And, the new enthusiastic weeds were remarkable, in that they included giant sunflowers and black walnuts, complementary from squirrel plantings. Japanese lantern plants have taken over a fallow bed, and another enthusiastically growing weed caught my attention. It was/is White Goosefoot which is a near relative of other Pigweeds notably the Palmer Amaranth that has been getting lots of press in agriculture circles as the most dangerous weed threat to commercial agriculture. This is due to its remarkable and growing resistance to herbicides, making it the star of the upcoming superweeds.

To avoid the accusation of thread off topicism, the Palmer Amaranth and most of the Pigweed family of plants were grown and harvested by Native Americans and worldwide, as they grow everywhere, and some tribes are trying to bring them back, as they can survive adverse growth conditions. Most remarkable is that the Palmer variety has evolved a rapid herbicide resistance metabolism, clearly with strong survival advantages. Im harvesting my goosefoot seeds just in case they become the only crop I can still grow.
We had better learn to eat this and like it!

Palmer amaranth, the king of weeds, cripples new herbicides

TAT
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: A Question of Culture - 10/14/21 12:10 AM
Do you really need to harvest seeds? Any respectable weed should replant it's self. I'm finding the strangest things growing in my string bean pots, and those have hardware cloth around them to keep the ground squirrels at bay. They are so prolific I need a tiny electric fence around my raised beds, or they eat everything as soon as it sprouts.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/14/21 12:11 AM
Human dominance of the natural order is not without its trials and tribulations.

Kshhhhh!

Relax, and have a home brew!
Posted By: Greger Re: A Question of Culture - 10/14/21 12:15 AM
Reckon you'll hafta get off your ass and actually pull the weeds.

I'm going to suggest that the use of herbicides is what led to the unprecedented fungal invasion and that it is every weed's job to survive.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 03:13 AM
I solved the weed situation, it was just a matter of perspective. I weed is only a weed if I dont want it growing there! I embrace all enthusiastic plants, and they are all welcome in my veggie beds, lawn, front and back yards, side yard, but sadly no longer growing through the asphalt of my driveway. One of my chronic interests is noticing some plant thriving in my yard, and finding it the right place to grow best. They have to be shade tolerant and deer resistant, or they wouldn't have made the cut in the yard.

The white goosefoot/ pigweed was taste tested today. It is a seed rather than a grain and was pleasant like Keenwaaw without the soapy aftertast

Getting back to culture, the microbial culture world has had intense competition between the fungi and filamentous bacteria for Billions of years, which I understand is not as impressive as we are now in Trillions mindset. If one was better than the other, we would have only one kind that won the evolution battle. We now understand that these many organisms work together as the bacteria need fungi to convert cellulose and other complex carbohydrate into simple sugars. So, what could go wrong with such a long lasting mutually productive system that also nurtures plants to help utilize soil nutrients. You guessed it Roundup/glyphosate.

It is now clear that glyphosate that poisons plants, for now, but also kills many bacteria and fungi in to soil and could also change our bowel biomes if roundup got into our food supply. Roundup is also more persistent in soil, than we were led to believe by Monsanto. The following study shows the effects on fungal mycorrhizal networks! NO NOT THAT!

I just started a new compost heap today with sudden abundance of leaves. It still feels like summer here so Im expecting a rapid heating pile, not like Im trying to kill the seeds of the highly invasive Creeping Charlie.
Its exciting to watch compost forming, once you understand the fascinating process!
Its even more exciting when you compost relatives, like some have mentioned!

roundup ruins fungi, Glyphosate decreases mycorrhizal colonization and affects plant-soil feedback
TAT
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 03:41 AM
The thing I have always found amazing about a well-formed compost heap is how hot it gets in the middle. The first one I ever made as an older teen blew my mind. I had read about them heating up, but fungi and bacteria producing that much heat was incredible.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 11:37 AM
It’s nice to see there is a Microbe World Fan Club in these parts. Does that mean support for the concept of trying to get human culture (which is analagous to glyphosate culture) to emulate Fungi Culture?
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
…but fungi and bacteria producing that much heat was incredible.
The thermophilic phase of a compost pile is driven by bacteria, which are basically “burning” the organic material in the process of breaking it down. The heat is not friendly to fungi and hyphae development. Johnson-Su fungal dominant compost is a slow static pile process that doesn’t have much of a heat producing stage, yet in a year the material (mostly woody biomass) is converted to a soil with the consistency of worm castings, and is unbelievably rich in microbial diversity. It can even break down organic chemicals like glyphosate. As Dr. Johnson is fond of saying, in regards to the ability of microbes to create a healthy and stable soil environment, “There’s a bug that will eat anything!”

Humans need to appreciate and learn from Nature’s genius and stop trying to dominate it stupidly and destructively.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by Greger
American "culture" is not just about money and greed. Hatred also plays an enormous role.
I just thought of another major element that dominates and controls human culture - cars.

What would our culture look like without cars? I think our future with cars is extinction.
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 03:02 PM
Offering a couple of links as, well, compost for ideas. Not for or against, just providing them. Don’t know anything about the museum but thought it might be relevant.



https://folkartmuseum.org

https://www.livescience.com/28945-american-culture.html
Posted By: Greger Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 06:54 PM
There was a Southern Apartheid Culture that I was raised in...it left me a bit scarred.

There were good and beautiful things about that culture but keeping the blacks in gulags and using them as a source of cheap labor kind of soured the whole thing.

That culture...a remnant of the Great Depression, needed to be swept away and was. But there are vestiges of it remaining. Some not so bad.

In my little town, it's time for Pig On The Pond! A 3-day barbecue festival. They've set up a midway in Waterfront Park, fair rides and cotton candy and there's about 5 acres of food trucks and competition barbecue rigs. Several hundred thousand people are going to be partying amid the smell of roasting pork over the next few days just down the hill from me.

Roscoe and I will be walking to Victory Point and maybe beyond for the next few days, we've never been to the bridge and there's a dog park just beyond that we've never seen...

But this is American Culture as much as anything. Food, music, and fun. People gathering and feasting and playing together, my town is incredibly diverse so there will be a mix of dozens of different races and nationalities. Dozens of different religions and beliefs, dozens of different cultures., and nobody there is gonna give a rat's ass about any of the differences.

A little melting pot down the hill from me. A little slice of Americana.
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Greger
That culture...a remnant of the Great Depression, needed to be swept away and was. But there are vestiges of it remaining. Some not so bad.

My knowledge of the Depression is more Midwestern/western.

I’ve never heard that association with the Depression. Racism was everywhere in the country, but I’ve never heard of the Depression as a cause. Can you give me a little more context?
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 08:08 PM
I like this thread; it’s giving me something to think about.

One aspect of our culture that no one has mentioned is militarism. It’s certainly an American feature (for lack of a better phrase) that is recognizable to much of the rest of the world.

Also one of many contradictions: the European-based population brought with them the urge to move on whenever things looked better elsewhere - one of the earlier posts referred to a lack of attachment to the land. On the other hand, once immigrants put down roots (or thought they had), they tended to stay there as long as possible. That’s why there are four and five generation farms. lot of the land and as mentioned earlier, A fierce independence.

Finally (for now,) another contradiction (and another European-based element.) While wanting to “melting pot” their way into American (Anglo) society, immigrants have also tried to keep something of the Old Country in their lives - often through food and festivals. Some of them are largely made up (St. Patrick’s Day, Cinco de Mayo,) but in other cases, Polish festivals, Danish/Norwegian festivals, Czech festivals, Carnivals - these are found across the nation. How else would we know about lutefisk? So while we move away as fast as we can we try very hard to bring a piece of it with us.

Maybe I’d say our culture is wholly contradictory.

And armed.
Posted By: Greger Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 08:27 PM
It wasn't just racism. Racism was built into the culture, a part of it but not a defining part.

It had always been that way. It was rooted in the Civil war era and before. it was a remnant of the reconstruction too. The apartheid part was written into law...separate but equal. Black people lived in "the quarters".

But mostly and most recently the culture I was born into was a remnant of the Great Depression. Hardscrabble times that left everyone bruised and battered. It also just happened to be an apartheid society.
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/15/21 08:58 PM
So if I understand you correctly, you’re pretty much talking about slavery, the remains of slavery after the war and reconstruction, and then the depression came alon* and pretty much everybody’s lives turned to sh*t. Black people just hit bottom earlier and people in that area have been economically depressed pretty much ever since.

Btw I’m not challenging you - just trying to learn.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: A Question of Culture - 10/16/21 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Greger
...It was rooted in the Civil war era and before....

I was verifying and validating a lead compliance certificate at work yesterday. It was issued by the State of Rhode Island.

Rhode Island's official name? State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations

Yeah...that was 1776...you know that year that all men are created equal was a popular phrase. coffee
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/16/21 02:01 PM
I did a quick check on this; something was tugging at my memory.

Although “plantation” definitely has the meaning you refer to in the present and for some time past, its older meaning is “a colony or new settlement.” So to cut a little slack for Rhode Island, the”plantation” in Rhode Island’s name probably has a more positive meaning than you might think.
Posted By: Greger Re: A Question of Culture - 10/16/21 04:19 PM
"Providence Plantations" kind of went right along with colonization, since folks had to eat to live. Plantation means nothing more than it implies. A plantation house is just a big farmhouse owned by the billionaires of the day.

I grew up among the vast citrus plantations in Central Florida. Mostly owned by a few white families and mostly worked by those black folks who lived in the quarters.

Everything else serviced the needs of the citrus industry.

Not a great deal different from the cotton industry a century before and a little north of here...

Farther north they used child labor and had no use for slaves(or black people)

Funny world ain't it.

That's all gone with the wind. Disney is King now and my little town is a genuine melting pot where all races and creeds mingle without a care.

Except the Puerto Ricans with noisy mufflers, they can east sh*t and die twice.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/16/21 05:15 PM
/[quote=Mellowicious]I like this thread; it’s giving me something to think about.


Finally (for now,) another contradiction (and another European-based element.) While wanting to “melting pot” their way into American (Anglo) society, immigrants have also tried to keep something of the Old Country in their lives - often through food and festivals. Some of them are largely made up (St. Patrick’s Day, Cinco de Mayo,) but in other cases, Polish festivals, Danish/Norwegian festivals, Czech festivals, Carnivals - these are found across the nation. How else would we know about lutefisk? So while we move away as fast as we can we try very hard to bring a piece of it with us.

Maybe I’d say our culture is wholly contradictory.


This thread has drifted so far off topic offtopic from compost, that I'm temped to take my fungus-ball and go home or to another thread! And, to what end? LUTEFISK!! sick

Irked and I have debated the origin on Lutefisk, and have concluded it was clearly a desperation survival startergery when some Norwegians immigrants were trapped in their cabin in Minnesota in May, under 10 feet of snow, with only a pile of dried whitefish and bucket of Drano. Their rationale for settling in Minnesota was that the soil was rich and beautiful, and the weather was just as good as Norway grin
Posted By: pdx rick Re: A Question of Culture - 10/16/21 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by TatumAH
...trapped in their cabin in Minnesota...:
They also settled in Poulsbo, Washington, because the area reminded them of Scandinavia.

smile
Posted By: pdx rick Re: A Question of Culture - 10/16/21 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by logtroll
Looks like a real fun guy.

Bears usually are. smile
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 03:02 AM
I remember a TV series called The Immigrants, about one Norwegian family's move to Minnesota. Their farm back in Norway had a few inches of topsoil over glacial cobble and bedrock. When they got to Minnesota, the father stuck a rod down into the topsoil and it went down five feet with no rocks. Then he tried a few more places: Same result. He knew they had arrived in Heaven.

The reason I thought of this today, is that I am digging post holes to put chain link around my solar array. Some holes I dig with a water jet in about one minute. Some involve a lot of rocks and cursing. Pandemic result: Chain ink fabric has gone up 250%, and Lowes and Home Depot have zero stock. Fortunately, my good neighbor has some used rolls from a fence he replaced I can get for the hauling!
Posted By: Ken Condon Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 03:13 AM
So my mother’s family was from Sweden. They emigrated to Canada around the turn of the 20th century. They got some hardscrabble land in southern Saskatchewan around a town called Whitewood. Percival to be exact which ended up being a grain elevator. And as far as I know that little burg is now kaput.

How I ended up being born in Hawaii is a miracle beyond all comprehension.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by Ken Condon
How I ended up being born in Hawaii is a miracle beyond all comprehension.

So...are you going to tell us? Hmm
Posted By: Ken Condon Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 03:29 AM
So you were talking about inflation PIA. There is a favorite bread of mine in Eugene called Country Levain. Last time I bought it last week it was 5.49 a loaf. Today I went and bought a loaf and it was 7.99. I asked the checker if that price was correct. He said he did not know.

I am hoping that is not true but I have gotten in touch through email with the bakery that baked it. I am awaiting their response.

Does that spell inflation?
Posted By: pdx rick Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by Ken Condon
Does that spell inflation?
Some companies are taking advantage of the global supply chain.

It's not like the li'l bakery in Eugene is getting its bread flour from Russia on container ships, but first had to find the container, then waiting for six weeks floating around in The Sound to off-load. Hmm

We just had a Corp meeting on this issue. We're holding the line for the most part. smile
Posted By: Ken Condon Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 03:46 AM
I think labor prices are going up… Probably as they should. But that would indeed spell inflation for all of us.

A conundrum indeed.
Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by Ken Condon
I think labor prices are going up… Probably as they should. But that would indeed spell inflation for all of us.

A conundrum indeed.

But even so, labor isn't the biggest driver of price increases.
Not even in the top three, I don't believe.
Posted By: Ken Condon Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 04:13 AM
So what is it Jeff? Inflation is coming and it’s coming big time.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 10:36 AM
Greedy, money-grubbing business owners will always be ahead of inflation and they'll not suffer one iota. THEY are the ones setting prices for their goods. When the competition sees their competitor raising prices, they raise them too. Hmm

When i first moved to my new house, I was eating out a lot. I was spending $27 with tip for dine-in breakfast, $35 with tip for dine-in dinner. I'd go to Chipotle or Habit Burger for lunch.

Now I use the meal kit service and I'm spending $42 for six dinners with delivery the past three weeks and the meals are really tasty. The produce is super fresh and beautiful. smile

This past week, they did forget to pack the fresh ginger for one of the meals and I had to go to the store and spend .29 plus my time and gas to prepare the meal as designed. shocked
Posted By: Ken Condon Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 11:00 AM
Well, those were foolish expenditures I’m glad you finally came to that conclusion yourself. But I have noticed in my lifetime that one’s expenditures usually rise to meet their income. The more you earn the more you spend and a lot of it unnecessarily. Buying crap you simply don’t need.

Now that I’m retired I don’t spend much. I’ll go out for lunch about three times a week all the rest of the time I cook at home.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 11:10 AM
Well, I did get to taste the local cuisine, most of it was good. This one place, I tried twice because it had good Yelp reviews, but my rating of the place would be meh. It's a fish place, and the only good thing they have their clam chowder. On one visit, I ordered a Crab Louie. The crab was reddish. Um...I don't think so...crab is white. I think they tried to pass off tuna as crab. gobsmacked
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by logtroll
Originally Posted by Greger
American "culture" is not just about money and greed. Hatred also plays an enormous role.
I just thought of another major element that dominates and controls human culture - cars.

What would our culture look like without cars? I think our future with cars is extinction.
I reckon bringing up cars as a cornerstone of American culture was cutting too close to the bone? I admit, it’s genuinely scary to contemplate the enormous nuances of that reality. I think we are headed for a Thelma and Louise ending.

Then there are the twin evil accomplices of motor vehicles - speed and energy. We have a global culture (not just American, though we may have been the early promotors) that is pedal to the metal with the fuel gauge hovering near zero. It was all predicted in The Milagro Beanfield Wars, with its theme of subsistence culture being overrun by capitalist “progress”.

Yum, yum, eat ‘em up! I’m gittin’ mine while the gittin’s good!!

Smoke ‘em if ya got ‘em…
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 12:44 PM
Posted By: Ken Condon Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 01:06 PM
That’s funny Loggy I was going to post that after reading your comment smoke ‘em if you got ‘em but somehow didn’t. I suppose I was leaving it up to you.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 01:33 PM
Posted By: Ken Condon Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 02:05 PM
We are through!
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/18/21 02:54 PM
Can’t go wrong with Mr. Prine.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/19/21 10:32 AM
The footprint of transportation

Quote
Modern American cities bear a powerful physical imprint of automobiles and other motorized vehicles. It is estimated that as much as one half of a modern American city’s land area is dedicated to streets and roads, parking lots, service stations, driveways, signals and traffic signs, automobile-oriented businesses, car dealerships, and more. Equally significant, space allocated for other forms of transportation ultimately shrank or disappeared. For example, sidewalks—normally considered essential to separate pedestrians from various transportation modes—were less often constructed along many urban roads and streets in the automobile era. Walking seemed increasingly incidental in moving people from place to place. Bicycle lanes, quite common in several European cities, were late-comers or non-existent in American cities as competitive forms of transportation were squeezed out by an increasing dependence on cars.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/19/21 10:39 AM
Cars vs Food

Quote
There are many reasons to question the goal of building automobile-centered transportation systems everywhere, including climate change, air pollution, and traffic congestion. But the loss of cropland alone is sufficient. Nearly all of the 3 billion people to be added to the current world population of 6 billion by mid-century will be born in developing countries where there is not enough land to feed everyone and to accommodate the automobile. Future food security now depends on restructuring transportation budgets—investing less in highway infrastructure and more in rail and bicycle infrastructure.
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/19/21 11:18 AM
Is Culture more a creature of philosophy? Or psychology?
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/19/21 11:52 AM
A one word description of American culture might be “Moar!”

But consider what Epicurus had to say:
Quote
If you wish to make Pythocles rich, do not add to his store of money, but subtract from his desires. -Epicurus

The first sentence is likely psychology, the second is philosophy. But to act on the philosophical statement would require a change in psychology.
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/19/21 12:42 PM
But…it can be done, at least in small amounts. I’ve been working towards exactly this for years. I still have a long way to go.

Granted it’s a lot easier - a LOT easier - when your basic needs are covered
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/19/21 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by Mellowicious
Granted it’s a lot easier - a LOT easier - when your basic needs are covered
I agree. One thing I've thought a lot about is how some unknowns, like healthcare and how much money I will need to cover expenses until the unscheduled date of exit-ing the mortal coil - in other words insecurity - pushes the "moar" button quietly and constantly and leads to overshoot. Curiously, it's a common argument against "social" security that people will all become lazy mooches. But maybe that's more (not moar) what we should be doing.

Think of the irony of the "labor saving" devices of the last half century - promoting the idea that if we just had all these gadgets to make life easier that we would have more time to be lazy. Well, THAT sure as cars backfired!
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/20/21 01:53 PM
Always wondered how you were supposed to “plan” for retirement given the uncertainty of health care and length of life. Sure would like to spend that last $1.85 an hour before kickoff time but with my luck I’d go into overtime…
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: A Question of Culture - 10/20/21 11:10 PM
It depends on how well you want to live near the end. Rich people have no problem meeting all there needs except for the inevitable. Middle income people may want to buy Long Term Care insurance, so they can sustain a pretty comfortable middle class life style until the end. Otherwise you end up impoverished when the state takes everything and puts you in poor-house care. Of course, that means no inheritance for your kids, but if they can't take care of themselves by the time you die, screw 'em.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/21/21 03:45 AM
Long Term Care insurance, that helps one stay in their home, is VERY expensive, and many will not be eligible even if they have the money. We were lucky enough to sign up for it, after my wife and her sibs took turns caring for their slowly dying Mother. The criteria for entry are stringent and enforced. A nurse came to our home and collected blood and urine specimens, collected complete family and medical histories, and administered a complex dementia screening exam.

They clearly dont want any physically healthy people who might get demented and live a very long and expensive life. Pre-existing conditions and family history may exclude many. I felt OK about the scrutiny, as this is one of the ways that the company keeps it's astronomical yearly premiums as low as possible. The rates go up every year, with dramatic increases at 65 or so. That is for a NY State plan at least. Its not like flood insurance that you can get when the water starts rising. Most experts say you should get into it at age 55.


all you need to know about LTC

TAT
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/21/21 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
It depends on how well you want to live near the end. Rich people have no problem meeting all there needs except for the inevitable. Middle income people may want to buy Long Term Care insurance, so they can sustain a pretty comfortable middle class life style until the end. Otherwise you end up impoverished when the state takes everything and puts you in poor-house care. Of course, that means no inheritance for your kids, but if they can't take care of themselves by the time you die, screw 'em.
Are you saying that a facet of American culture is long term health care is a matter of money, and if you don’t have enough, then you get to slowly rot in the back bedroom or under a sheet of cardboard out on 5th Street?

In some cultures it is appropriate to put Grandma “on ice” when the long term care balance sheet tips.

This might be an area of opportunity for us as Americans to intentionally carve out a cultural practice that is more humane.

Or is there anything intentional about cultures?
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/21/21 11:22 AM
Care for old people in the US.is damn near criminal. The Green House Project is worth checking into but they are still few and far between, I think.

https://thegreenhouseproject.org
Posted By: Greger Re: A Question of Culture - 10/21/21 04:08 PM
So what's the point of preserving the lives of the old and disabled beyond(far beyond) their productive years?

For clarity's sake, I am old and disabled. Not as old as some, not as disabled as others. But I'm completely useless as far as society is concerned. A burden.

And I'm okay with that.

I never planned anything. Forced into retirement in 2008 at 55, deeply in debt, went bankrupt, spent time in a mental facility, failing health, wheelchair.

Plato said that if you want to make Herokles rich, do not add to his store of wealth, but subtract from his list of desires.
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/21/21 04:43 PM
I think everyone has the right to stick around whether they’re productive or not. I know we way overmedicate, and that’s not good. I think doctors - particularly gerontologists / should have in-depth interviews with old folks at a certain point in time (no, I don’t know what that is.) to make some decisions (which should be revocable.)
Posted By: Greger Re: A Question of Culture - 10/21/21 05:58 PM
Quote
I think everyone has the right to stick around whether they’re productive or not.

I'm glad we think alike on this! I plan to be around and to be completely useless for a long time.

Some are overmedicated and some are undermedicated, I've been both at one time or another nearly died from both of them.

As long as I'm having a good time I'm gonna stick around...and quite frankly, I'm having the time of my life!
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/21/21 07:18 PM
A line I just heard on TV: “money isn’t everything, so long as you have enough of it. “
Posted By: pdx rick Re: A Question of Culture - 10/22/21 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Mellowicious
A line I just heard on TV: “money isn’t everything, so long as you have enough of it. “
How many yachts and "second homes" can you have? Hmm
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/22/21 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by pdx rick
Originally Posted by Mellowicious
A line I just heard on TV: “money isn’t everything, so long as you have enough of it. “
How many yachts and "second homes" can you have? Hmm
A lot. And you heard about whichever Richie Rich it was whose yatchit could handle so many guests, it had to tow a smaller yatchit just for supplies.

I jus5 remembered a conversation I heard in Aspen long ago:
“Mommy, mommy, I want those boots!”
“We have to talk to Daddy first; they’re $500”

The girl was in her early teens. The $500 was in mid-80s dollars. And I’d bet anything she got the damn boots.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: A Question of Culture - 10/22/21 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by Mellowicious
Originally Posted by pdx rick
[quote=Mellowicious]A line I just heard on TV: “money isn’t everything, so long as you have enough of it. “
I jus5 remembered a conversation I heard in Aspen long ago:
“Mommy, mommy, I want those boots!”
“We have to talk to Daddy first; they’re $500”

The girl was in her early teens. The $500 was in mid-80s dollars. And I’d bet anything she got the damn boots.
And! They were probably made from endangered critter fur or skin. cry
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/22/21 04:33 PM
[video:google]
[/video]
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/22/21 11:16 PM
Christopher Walken?
Posted By: Mellowicious Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 12:19 AM
Christopher Walken would be dancen.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 12:56 AM
So could Prancer!

Hijack
Welcome back to either the three word game or the association game! grin

TAT
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 01:02 AM
Neck row mancer.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 01:07 AM
Nancy was cold
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 01:10 AM
… as witches’ tits?
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 01:18 AM
Absolutely quipped Kelvin
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 01:31 AM
The 3rd degree?
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 01:41 AM
where QUBITS dwell
Posted By: logtroll Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 02:19 AM
Noah was swell
Posted By: TatumAH Re: A Question of Culture - 10/23/21 02:43 AM
Ark needed Kwell
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