Capitol Hill Blue
Posted By: logtroll Another reason for impeachment - 01/23/21 02:32 PM
I just read this blockbuster, which seems like an excellent companion 'article of impeachment' to the one of seditiously inciting overthrow of the government via insurrection.

Trump was seriously considering firing AG Rosen and putting in his place a crony with a plan to use the AG's office to invalidate the Georgia election results.

That seems to be all kinds of illegal to me, just as fraught with seditious conspiracy to overthrow the legitimate government as inciting insurrection is.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/23/21 04:26 PM
There were and are a thousand reasons to impeach Trump. Emolluments, nepotism, documented corruption, blatant lies, destruction of records, tax fraud, campaign violations, Hatch Act violations, the use of private email servers, the list is endless.

Yet he will not be convicted.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/23/21 04:37 PM

George Conway has provided a roadmap for the Senate to follow to prosecute Trump. smile

I say convict the fat slob Trump and take-away ALL of his post-POTUS benefits including Secret Service. Why protect an insurrectionist? Hmm
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/23/21 04:55 PM
George Conway is a RINO and now that Trump is gone we will hear nothing more from him nor his wife, the lady with the tragic face.

The days of his relevancy are gone...gone with the wind.

Yet fascism is alive and well in the USA, the defeat of Trump is like beheading the Hydra, it's only the beginning of a task that will never be completed.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/23/21 05:54 PM
Hasn't George Conway suffered enough? He has made his bed and he will have to lie in it with Kellyanne!

The ironic thing, insanity really, is that even if the takeover of the Justice Dept and Georgia gambit was successful, it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the electoral college, unless of course, this kind of thing was also cooking in Arizona, Pennsylvania, and Michigan? Well, we already know about the attempted manipulation in Michigan. I suspect that much more will be found by the time impeachment rolls around.

TAT
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/23/21 05:59 PM
Everyday a new atrocity. Some things never end. They’ll be uncovering the crimes and malfeasance of the Orange One for years after he is dead and spat upon.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/23/21 08:47 PM
The House could just keep on impeaching Trump on each individual charge, until the Senate finally convicts him out of frustration.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/24/21 03:12 AM
That could be turdle-boy's obstructionism 3.0! Won't get fooled again! All the gop senate has to do to win back majority in 2022 is to slow Biden's plans down and make him look ineffective! Democracy gone fur good. It's time to HAMMER A STAKE
through the filibuster's cold heart.
Tat
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/24/21 08:06 PM
I think that Biden will take care of that problem one way or another. He knows, exactly, how Mitch works. Right now, however, he still has to get the covid money and his appointments so that he can function even a little bit. If he can't do it then .....
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/24/21 09:17 PM
If Republicans demand too much, Schumer can always go nuclear and get rid of the filibuster. Then make every committee chair a Democrat and put a Democratic majority on every committee. He has the votes to do it. So what McTurdle is doing is a bluff, in light of Biden saying he wants to be bi-partisan.

What would be more politic would be to change the filibuster rules, so it takes 60 votes the first day, 55 votes the second day, and 50 votes the third day to stop it. So Republicans can filibuster if they want, but ultimately they lose. I think they wouldn't bother to filibuster.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/24/21 10:36 PM
You know things never stay the same. Reid and Schumer pushed for the nuclear option, I would guess when they first used it, none of them ever thought it would be used against them. We have Kavanaugh and Barrett on the SCOTUS because of Reid's precedence setting first use. It's a slippery slope.

At sometime in the future you'll have a Republican president and the house and senate controlled by the GOP. When that happens, they can do exactly what they want. Sometimes it's better to step back and think a bit. Is a short term political gain worth what the future may hold?

these things have a habit of coming back and biting one in the butt. Which was exactly what the nuclear option did. Yes, Schumer has the votes to end the filibuster. He can do so at anytime he wants. You can make the senate a mini version of the House. Where knee jerk reactions become the law of the land.

Schumer first use of the nuclear option was a huge mistake. I wonder if he will look back on that huge mistake or just plunge ahead and make another.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/312540-schumer-regrets-dems-triggering-nuclear-option

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ch...eatest-mistake/

What happens, happens. But you can bet your bottom dollar that when the GOP takes full control they'll be repealing legislation after legislation passed by the democrats and passing their own. Of course when the democrats regain full control, they'll do the same. There'll be no moderation what so ever, just huge lunges left and right.

If that is what is wanted, so be it.
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/25/21 05:25 PM
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think they wouldn't bother to filibuster.

They don’t filibuster now; they threaten to filibuster then take a cloture vote on the hypothetical filibuster.

I think two simple rule changes will return the filibuster to its historical roots: a rarely used tactic to prevent a bare majority from bulldozing through a hasty and unpopular bill.

1) if you filibuster, you have to filibuster: Talk until you can’t talk anymore. When you yield, debate is closed (if no one else has already been acknowledged by the president) and an up or down vote taken.

2) If a senator is not present for a cloture vote, that senator’s vote counts to cloture. (If one believes debate must continue, than one should bother to show up and vote accordingly.)
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/25/21 06:56 PM
I suspect that Mitch is just trying to figure out just how far he can go. He is pretty good at that. Now, however, its time that the Dems stand up and put a stop to the blather and get on with what needs to be done instead of playing Mitch's game.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/25/21 10:32 PM
Don't think for a second that McTurtle would not end the filibuster if he was in charge and it suited him. Also don't think for a second that Schumer could pass anything he liked if the filibuster was gone. He would still have to convince a majority of Senators and Harris it was a good bill. Some of those Democrats from conservative states are not going to go along with anything too upsetting to their constituents.

The kind of things Schumer could pass are those bills that are popular with a majority of Americans. Like raising the minimum wage and fixing ACA. Some bills McTurtle has blocked are actually popular with a majority of Republicans! He prevented them from coming to a floor vote because he knew they would pass. In my opinion that was defeating the function of the Senate for partisan gain.

Making filibusters more difficult and time-limited would preserve their ability to prevent the majority from ramming through bills with no objection. If objections were real and brought up points that should be considered, bills could be modified and put through the process again. The way they work now is with the objections being "We don't like it." or simply "We don't like you."
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/25/21 10:37 PM
Actual conviction for Trump's impeachment is not that important, as long as he gets indicted and convicted for giving aid or comfort to insurrectionists. The sentence could even be a $1 fine and probation, though loss of his pension would be more appropriate. Under the 14th Amendment, that would make him ineligible to run again.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/26/21 12:54 AM
How long will it take to gather four more senators from the states of Washington DC and Puerto Rico? Hell, I'd even trade them a West Virginia in the deal, and still be a head! allhail
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/26/21 01:40 AM
Manichean

I learned a new word today Manichean, I read it and thought it was a play on words regarding our "democratic" senator from West Virginia, butt no!

Quote:
To be Manichean is to follow the philosophy of Manichaeism, which is an old religion that breaks everything down into good or evil. It also means “duality,” so if your thinking is Manichean, you see things in black and white.


I think it WOULD be an appropriate description!
TAT
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/26/21 03:51 AM
One of the Christian sects (Manicheanism) exterminated by the Paulines espoused a dualist spin on the teachings of Joshua bar-Yosef. Of course, a sect that sees a strict divide between good and evil hardly fits in well with the varying narratives required to maintain a widespread empire. Much better to have a pile of taboos to shuffle through as needed and get-out-of-jail cards for the well heeled and well connected (dense rituals/confession/absolution/indulgences) while palming off a coming paradise on the downtrodden to look forward to and stop them from whining about how unfair it all is.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/26/21 03:54 AM
For more information on Mani and the religion he founded, you can look up Manichean Heresy. (Winners always write the history books.)

It was popular from Spain to China. Saint Augustine was actually a Manichean before he converted. Not really so far-fetched because they said Jesus was a perfect being filled with God's light, and believed everything physical was ruled by Satan. More or less it incorporated ideas from Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and Buddhism.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/27/21 07:22 PM
I think it was Saint Augustine who also said something like; "If you think God is thinking of you then you are committing the sin of pride". (I often wondered what he would think if you thought God was talking to you)
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/27/21 07:57 PM
Probably "Are you taking your meds?"
Or: "Don't listen to that voice in your head, unless you get confirmation from the dog!"
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/27/21 08:11 PM
Quote:
"If you think God is thinking of you then you are committing the sin of pride".


I watched a Chris Rock comedy special on Netflix last night. He was talking about religious extremists who blow stuff up, and he said:

Quote:
If you think you are helping God [by setting off that bomb], then you don't really believe in God. God doesn't need your help. He's all powerful!
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/28/21 07:01 PM
All these people determined to help God - always wondered about them. Muslims, I think, tend to help Him a lot? (with Christians hot on their tail helping all the way)

I have a lot of problems with the entire God thing. We have an infinite God. This, I think, means that EVERYTHING is God! EVERYTHING! Man, Woman, child, tree, dirt, fire, EVERYTHING!

This being the case ...........
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/29/21 06:45 AM
That's pretty much my thoughts on it. Anybody who claims they are doing something evil in God's name, is actually a Satan (Kali, Loki, etc.) worshipper.

On the other hand, there are a few people who feed the hungry, heal the sick, visit prisoners, etc. Jesus had a name for them: The Sheep. As opposed to The Goats who all go the Hell. Most people who claim to be Christians have no idea what Jesus was talking about.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/29/21 07:19 PM
Given all the religious legislation that has been done, over the centuries, by one outfit or another, one must wonder why anybody would actually believe what God said or did, gifted to us by "professional" salesmen. The new bible, for instance, has had several overhauls, over the centuries, by any number of 'experts'. They just didn't change a word here but left out whole chunks and added other chunks.

I think the current deal is that we should believe them holy folks who hear voices in their heads. We just got a new Supreme who speaks in tongues. Its all almost inspirational!

and also almost amazing!
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/29/21 09:04 PM
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Most people who claim to be Christians have no idea what Jesus was talking about.

To quote another great philosopher: “Ain’t it the truth? Ain’t it the truth?”
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/31/21 08:27 PM
Hmmmm... Trump can't get any legal representation for the impeachment trial because he is insisting on using The Big Lie (massive vote fraud), the selfsame issue that he used to incite insurrection, which is the same-same thing that the impeachment trial is all about, as... wait fer it... you guessed it...

HIS DEFENSE!!!!

The shysters can't argue it because they know it is The Big Lie, and they would be sanctioned into oblivion if they did.

I can't recall another Catch-22 that's more of a mind-bender than this one. He might just win hisself 67 votes to convict after all, in spite of the corrupt odds!
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/31/21 08:33 PM
Is that turning to old phrase, "the best offense is a good defense," on its head?

"The best defense IS the offense!"

That's some masterful snake oil, right there.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/31/21 10:37 PM
Donald Trump doesn't need any defense. The jury has already announced that they will not convict.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 01/31/21 11:25 PM
I bet there are several lawyers among the congressional election-deniers. Josh Hawley, for example. But a House member might be better to avoid a conflict of interest in the Senate vote. One of these guys could always jump in to defend Trump.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 01:13 AM
Maybe add jury tampering to the articles of impeachment!
Or, can't impeach if he can't get representation!
Maybe request change of venue to Moscow.
Nothing is more absurd than the reality of the Senate.
Can't you put Senators under oath and have them testify, and then prosecute them for contempt of contemptible congress? This ain't Barr's "justice" Department anymore!
TAT
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 01:17 AM
The whole thing has been theater from the instant Republicans looked at pussy-grabbing, Gen. Flynn and crowd size - three things in plain sight for all to see - and did not say “OK ... This person is demonstrably unfit for office, we have to do something” decided instead that there is nothing the former president could do or say that they would not end up defending.
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 01:25 AM
Originally Posted By: TatumAH
Can't you put Senators under oath and have them testify, and then prosecute them for contempt of contemptible congress? This ain't Barr's "justice" Department anymore!
TAT


Considering all of the Denebian slime-devils that have oozed through those cambers, I’m sure there’s some sort of Senate rule stating that a Senator cannot be compelled to speak.

And with “speak” I mean under oath. The speech of Congresspeople in their houses and committee rooms is protected. Only their chamber can hold them accountable. Their speech outside of Congress is protected by the 1st and cannot be used in court against them - not being under oath.

More Catch 22s popping up left and right b
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 01:43 AM
Waterboard them, they approved it before for nation security! Even if SCROTUS ruled it unconstitutional I would still get out my popcorn to watch!
Modest proposal TAT
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 01:52 AM
I have it on good authority it’s no worse than getting a steam towel at the barbers! Or at least I heard it so described numerous times on TV and the radio.

Lots of Oh! And”s today
If waterboarding is not torture, by what mechanism does it elicit the truth from the recipient?
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 04:49 AM
I'm finding very difficult to end sentences without !!!! marks, and don't even remember where that little dot thingy is, leading to excessive run on sentences that I used to be careful to avoid in formal document like reports and still cringe when I read or try to edit them, and I'm not sure normal punctuation will return any time soon so I'm working on alternate ways of EXPRESSING MY OUTRAGE AND DISGUST
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 02:07 PM
The article of impeachment, “incitement of insurrection” is about much more than Trump’s speech on Jan. 6, which is pretty much all you hear about from the media. I suspect that “the speech” will be the sole focus of Trump’s defense as if it is the only relevant action of incitement under consideration.

However, Trump invested a good deal of time and effort preparing his case for revolt, beginning in his 2015 campaign - “the election is rigged if I don’t win”. And since Nov. 4, Trump has hammered on the theme that it was rigged and he actually won, and there was widespread vote fraud - clearly that was all a part of the incitement package. And finally, declaring that Republicans could invalidate the vote on Jan. 6th, or even Pence could do it unilaterally, was further incitement (premeditated and with intent to overthrow the government).

Hearing this story out on the stage of a Senate impeachment trial is important, and may be quite persuasive to at least 17 Republican senators. I don’t share the opinion that the exercise will be pointless or a waste of time, simply because most of the Republican senators voted for the ‘weasel out of responsibility’ option of pretending the trial is unConstitutional.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 02:47 PM
In related news, at least 8 of the Capitol "Stop the Steal" rioters who have been arrested didn't vote in the election!
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 03:04 PM
Originally Posted By: logtroll
In related news, at least 8 of the Capitol "Stop the Steal" rioters who have been arrested didn't vote in the election!

LOL, strange how that usually turns out to be the case. Those who holler the loudest it seems are the one's who didn't participate or vote in the election.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 03:18 PM
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: logtroll
In related news, at least 8 of the Capitol "Stop the Steal" rioters who have been arrested didn't vote in the election!

LOL, strange how that usually turns out to be the case. Those who holler the loudest it seems are the one's who didn't participate or vote in the election.

Some of them say they didn't vote because it was rigged... another strange Catch-22 promoted by King Kon?
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 05:01 PM
Quote:
If waterboarding is not torture, by what mechanism does it elicit the truth from the recipient?

Just like that steamy towel it relaxes and softens them. Makes them more pliable and easier to cut off at the ankles.
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 05:27 PM
Like the soft cushions and the comfy chair used by the Spanish Inquisition.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 05:44 PM
Trump's rigged election probably caused the loss of the two senate seats during the runoffs. So you should be patting Trump on the back and thanking him for the Democrats having control of the senate.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 07:36 PM
More reasons for mandatory voting.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 08:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Irked
Like the soft cushions and the comfy chair used by the Spanish Inquisition.


NO NOT THAT!!! nono
NOT THAT TAT!
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/01/21 09:25 PM
Originally Posted By: jgw
More reasons for mandatory voting.


I can't really get behind this idea. Election day should be a holiday.

Lots of pomp and circumstance, a celebration not unlike the 4th of July! Beer and beauty pageants, a celebration of freedom! Parades on Mainstreet! Make it a lottery with a chance to win cash!

Don't make people vote...make them WANT to vote!
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/02/21 06:58 AM
I think there are already enough people too dumb to vote voting. Get out the vote drives are fine, but making it mandatory is asking for trouble.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/02/21 07:50 PM
Sorry.... Australia did it and it made a difference. I consider voting to be a responsibility. The problem is that I seem to be in a minority. As a result we have elections, called landslides when 45 to 60 percent of valid voters actually vote. In the 2020 election its figured that 66.1% of eligible voters voted and that is, historically, more than usual.

239 million people were eligible to vote in the 2020 presidential election. Roughly 66.1% of them submitted ballots, totaling about 158 million. That means that 81 million voters didn't vote, or 33.9 percent. I want all eligible voters to vote. If they don't they are not being responsible, are lazy, and probably whine a lot.

The other thing voters should be told is that submitting a ballot is all they have to do. If they don't want to vote then submit a blank ballot. It all tells a story and the current story is that there are a LOT of people who don't vote. I talk to those who don't vote sometimes. When I ask them why the usual reply is that there was nothing on the ballot that was of interest - REALLY! At least, last time, it seemed that more than usual found something interesting there. I can remember times when I didn't want to vote because there was nothing there I wanted to vote on. When that happens I leave some just blank. I believe that blank voting is good and also sends a message and I think them that would govern might like to know exactly what that might be.

Just a thought - I know, not gonna happen...
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/02/21 08:19 PM
So you want folks like my son who's never voted in his life deciding who'll our political leaders will be. He pays no attention at all to politics. He couldn't tell you who is the governor of Georgia, who his senators are, who represents him. He probably doesn't even know there's two chambers in congress or who controls each.

I would wager he still thinks Trump is president. That I'm still backing Ross Perot for president. My son would be shocked not seeing Ross's name on the ballot. That how much or little attention he gives politics. Now he could probably tell you every score of the Pittsburgh Steelers games for the last 30 years and probably name every player who ever played for the Steelers.

Now he isn't alone in being totally ignorant of politics. There's a reason why those who don't vote, don't vote. They don't care. Or they might be voting the way the wife does. She votes for the person that looks most presidential.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/02/21 11:21 PM
Blank voting brings up another thought. there's a lot of voters who don't like either major party candidate in every election. 25% of all Americans disliked both Trump and Clinton in 2016, they didn't want neither one to become the next president.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

How about None of The Above being a choice? Since third party candidates received 6% of the total vote in 2016, a lot of those who disliked both candidates choose third party candidates to express their disgust. How many of that 25% stayed home and didn't bother to vote, no one will ever know.

If none of the above won, then you'd have another election with everyone on the original ballot, in the original election ineligible to run in the second election. This way one isn't forced to choose from the lesser of two evils or the candidate you want to lose the least.

Like mandatory voting, it isn't about to happen.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/03/21 12:16 AM
Nice idea, but I really doubt None Of The Above would ever win. That takes some interest and commitment non-voters don't have. I'm quite happy with my sister-in-law not voting, since she would write in The Pope if she had to pick somebody. She's all in for theocracy.

She decided to join a convent. I had to explain to her that orders were kicking nuns out once they reach retirement age. They want women who can work for them for 40 or 50 years, not retirees.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/03/21 06:38 PM
There used to be a lot of discussion about "None Of the Above" but that seems to have died out a long time ago. At that time, if I remember correctly, some actually had that option. I still like the idea as its more explicit than just entering a blank ballot.

One of the problems is that sometimes ballots have a lot more on them than just votes for politicians.

Still, its a very good idea! (thanks for reminding me!)
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/03/21 11:01 PM
Nevada still does. But it doesn't mean anything as whichever major party candidate finishes second to none of the above is declared the winner.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/04/21 07:01 PM
If I remember correctly one of the options of none of the above is giving the choice to gov to make. Up here we have a top two thing. This means that the top two from the primary run - regardless of party. Its not unusual for the top two to be in the same party. I used to think it odd but it works and it also entertains. If somebody at the top drops out they just go to the next in line.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/06/21 01:01 PM
Rachel Maddow has come up with a clever (no surprise) twist on Trump’s trial. She begins with the primary argument of defense being presented by Trump’s lawyers (if he will have any by Tuesday?) that he is no longer President, thus impeachment does not apply.

HOWEVER, it would appear that Trump is still refusing to admit that he lost the election (weirdly and persistently referring to himself, not as the former president, but as the 45th). So, by his own reckoning, he is STILL the President - which would make him impeachable.

If the House Managers want, they can still subpoena Trump, the citizen, to testify (even though he declined the “invitation”) and he will have to appear, or be held in contempt. If he declines on the old tried and true basis of presidential immunity, then he will make the case for being subject to impeachment.

It’s diabolical!!

popcorn2
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/06/21 04:56 PM
But you forget: each utterance by a Republican must only be viewed in total isolation from any other utterance by the same or different Republican; much less required to agree with objective facts. So, saying the Orange-One cannot stand trial in the Senate because he is no longer president is one statement that is obviously Right. While the statement that the Orange-One is still the rightful president is a completely different statement that must be accepted without reference to any other evidence.

It’s a very simple concept that everyone can get the hang of if they try.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/06/21 05:34 PM
Yes, my bad... I keep forgetting.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/06/21 06:45 PM
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Yes, my bad... I keep forgetting.


zork raths Ur-grue

CARP wrong thread
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/07/21 01:33 PM
The main argument put forth in Trump's defense is the claim that it is unConstitutional to impeach a private citizen.

Trump was impeached by the House of Representatives on January 13th, 2021.

Trump's term in office ended on January 20th, 2021.

He was unambiuously impeached as a sitting President.

The main argument is irrelevant.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/07/21 02:02 PM
The Constitution allows for two possible punishments following a Senate conviction on impeachment charges. One is mandatory - removal from office. Since Trump lost the election, that one is moot. But the other, discretionary prohibition from ever holding office again, is not moot.

It would seem especially relevant in this case, where the charge is overthrowing the Constitutionally determined government (i.e. rejecting the authority of the Constitution).

Here is an excellent piece on the whole thang...
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/07/21 02:09 PM
Can Congress impeach and remove a president who’s left office? A look at the history

https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/jan/26/can-congress-impeach-president-whos-left-office-lo/
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/07/21 09:25 PM
Quote:
Can Congress impeach and remove a president who’s left office?


They most certainly could if they had the votes.

But it aint a'gonna happen. He won't even have to fly back to DC to testify.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/07/21 10:17 PM
They could subpoena him if they wanted. His testimony about his motives could inform the trial. But maybe the majority doesn't care about his motives. This seems to me to be the Republican's last chance to redeem the Party. They are going to have to go on the record as supporting either the insurrection or the law. All their future political opponents can point back to their behavior in this trial. If they vote for impeachment, they get primaried by Trump's people. If they vote against it, they lose the general election.

Trump has killed the Republican Party for a few decades.

Their only way to avoid this debacle is to call in sick: Leave one retiring Republican Senator to vote but boycott the conviction voting. They avoid taking a position and can blame the Democrats for Trump's conviction. They need 51 members there for a quorum, but the 2/3 needed for conviction is of the Senators present. So don't be present. Or just let Cruz and Hawley vote, since they are betting that will benefit them.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/08/21 02:37 AM
I heard the same thing about killing a party for a few decades a few times. After Goldwater's debacle in 1964 it was said it would be 20 years before the Republican Party recovered. Nixon won the presidency in 1968. The same was said after Watergate, Nixon resigned, the Democrats obtained super majorities in congress, 63-37 in the senate, 291-144 in the house. Then in 1980, Reagan became president, the Republicans won the senate, the democratic majority in the house was cut to 242-191.

Then there was several books written about the Republican lock on the presidency during Reagan and immediately after. It be another 20 years before a democrat was elected president. Then Bill Clinton won in 1992.

Parties adjust, one party or the other over steps. Millions of things come to stop that 20-30, decades drought one foresaw in in 1964, 1974 or during Reagan. In a month or two, the political landscape will look a whole lot different than it is today. 2022 will be decided on what Biden and the democratic congress do or don't do. It will be decided whether or not independents are happy and satisfied with Biden and company or angry at them.

Yeah, the Republicans looked doomed today. A civil war is going on within the GOP. But there's nothing like being out of power that can unite a party's different factions. A net gain of 7 seats in 2022 would give the house back to the Republicans, a net gain of 1 senate seat, the same. Republicans and Democrats won't decided who controls congress in 2022, independents will. Also reapportionment will also come into play. No one knows how the lines will be drawn between now and 2022 making any forecast for the house a bunch of bunk now. republicans have trifectas in 23 states, governor, state legislature and state senate, the Democrats have 15.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/08/21 07:22 PM
Remember, the Democrats have NEVER won without the Republicans presenting a fiscal disaster for them to fix - NEVER! The interesting thing is that we can depend on the Republicans to give the Dems a chance by screwing it all up. Obama won on a disaster and so did Biden, for instance.

Both sides lose when they go too far. The Republicans tend to do it fiscally, the Democrats do it with excessive rules. Its what they do (they can't help themselves)
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/08/21 08:46 PM
I thought of a clever gambit for when the newly recovered fiscal conservatives object of relief bills as too expensive and, horror, increase the deficits. The GOP should help fix the deficit by repealing the rump tax cuts that mainly benefited the rich and blew up the deficit. They can call it the GOP tax cut revenue enhancement plan. They love anything that has tax cut in it somewhere! grin

There may be objections that taxes might slow the recovery right now, but they could phase them in gradually as the recovery improves. It would be an excellent gesture to show their good faith effort to try to help the nation in this time of crisis! ROTFMOL

Double bind the GOP and ask them to do their part for the working man! ROTFMOL

TAT
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/08/21 10:06 PM
I don't think the return to a Democratic control of the government is a last gasp by the Democratic Party. In the long run, our demographic changes suggest that Republicans will lose more than they win control. They are already cheating in every way possible to eke out their victories. As Trump said, if everybody qualified to vote does so, Republicans will never win the Presidency again. Not my words: His, and for once I think he was telling the truth.

Over the next two years, we will go a long way to defeating the pandemic and revitalizing the economy, sending the stock market soaring, and restoring our place of leadership in the world. Deserving or not, Biden is going to get full credit for that, and the contrast to Trump's reign will be stunning.

Two years from now, the Republican Party will still be divided. I predict more Trump supporters than old-school Republicans, which will lead to candidates who can't win very many general elections. Independents will not vote for Trumpists under those conditions. For many years, the Republican Party has been a fragile coalition of Rich People Who Want To Stay That Way, Evangelicals, and Chamber of Commerce Republicans. Now throw in the Fascists, and I think it gets untenable.

Will their Party change drastically four years from now? Six years from now? Eight years from now? They have done extensive autopsies after losing recent Presidential elections, and decided they need to make major changes in their platform and outreach. All of which were completely ignored.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/09/21 12:01 AM
Georgia election officials formally launch investigation into Trump phone calls

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/georgia-election-officials-formally-launch-223100348.html

The impeachment and trial in the senate is doomed to fail. Let's see where this goes.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/09/21 04:54 PM
I've been saying for years that Trump will remain unpunished for his real and imagined crimes. He will die soon and ascend to heaven where he will take his place at the right hand of God, shoving the socialist Jesus aside and to the hated left. Jesus will burn in Hell for his beliefs and all who did not worship Trump will burn with him in the eternal lake of fire.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/09/21 07:31 PM
I fully expect Biden to roll back that Republican tax "cut". That supposed tax cut was supposed to trickle down. What is absolutely amazing is that the Republicans continue with that old saw. Its one of the things they do that fails and, with some of their other great tricks, the Dems get to take over fix it.

The media too will mention what the Republicans did. Please watch, however, as the Dems rarely ever even mention that they were elected to fix yet another Republican fiscal disaster.

I have always believed that the Dems work hard not to offend?
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/10/21 04:53 PM
This is interesting. Not only the Atlanta DA, but also our state AG

Georgia launches criminal probe into Trump efforts to overturn 2020 election result - letter

https://www.yahoo.com/news/georgia-county-launches-criminal-probe-152148378.html

Since I feel the senate trial is a waste in futility, here's some concrete to go on.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/10/21 05:32 PM
Georgia At Gen office linked to robocalls

Here is a damn good reason to keep the Georgia DA office outside of the loop investigating rump voter fraud!

Quote:
Leaders from the Republican Attorneys General Association face mounting criticism after sending out a robocall that urged supporters of Donald Trump to join the 6 January march on the US Capitol that resulted in a deadly insurrection.
Acting US homeland security secretary Chad Wolf resigns – as it happened
Read more

“At [1pm''] we will march to the Capitol building and call on Congress to stop the steal,” a robocall from the Rule of Law Defense Fund (RLDF), a fundraising arm of the Republican Attorneys General Association, said.

The voice then said: “We are hoping patriots like you will join us to continue the fight to protect the integrity of our election.”

The association’s chair, Georgia attorney general Chris Carr, is now among several officials who claim to have “had no knowledge or involvement in this decision”, distancing themselves from or outright condemning the call.


I'll bet they are! DAs dont do very well in Georgia State Prisons. They are not supposed to be fun!
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/10/21 08:24 PM
I disagree with your premise.

Mr Trump WAS President when he was impeached. The question is whether there should be a trial, since he has left office (in all but Trump supporters minds)?

Every argument claiming he can not be tried after leaving office imply every president is above the law. Once one has acquiesced to that, the next question is why any president should be impeached at any time during their term in office? ... if they are above the law.

Every president should be held accountable for their actions not just in the voting booth, but to the Constitution. Abrogation by Congress would be tantamount to acceding the president IS above the law.

I live in America where no man is legally above the law.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/10/21 08:33 PM
Quote:
the senate trial is a waste in futility
While it is true there were 44 Senators who voted the trial is unConstitutional. It is clear at least 44 Republican senators will vote to acquit, which would support your belief the trial is futile, at the same time the House is mandated to present the impeachment to the Senate where it must be tried, and therefore not futile, but a precedent which all future presidents must consider when they decide to abuse the office in their closing days in office.

The 44 Republicans will have forever written in their legacy, they did not believe a president guilty of inciting an insurrection, could be convicted because they did not believe he should be tried. I want these guys in my jury should I ever need a mulligan.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/10/21 11:25 PM
I think it's very important to get those Senator's votes on the record. Most Republicans there think they need Trump's blessing for their future elections. I happen to think that within two years Trump will be a convicted felon serving time in prison, and his "base" will have shrunk down to a few neo-nazis and White supremacists. His supporters will melt away, as more people realize things are a LOT better with Biden running things.

Having a vote in favor of conviction will be a big plus in getting the Independent vote. Having a vote refusing to convict for what all the history books, respectable articles, and pundits say was an attempt to kill democracy, will be an indelible black mark as an enemy of the United States.

In short, these guys are signing their own political death warrants. I say, let them: It's better if they DON'T convict him. Any Republicans who do vote to convict are instantly redeemed, no matter how they voted and tweeted in the recent past. Sort of like a death-bed "come to Jesus" moment.

I loved Raskin's metaphor:
Quote:
“This case is much worse than someone who falsely shouts ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. It’s more like a case where the town fire chief, who’s paid to put out fires, sends a mob not to yell fire in a crowded theater, but to actually set the theater on fire,” Raskin said.

This “fire chief” should face punishment, he argued — but faced with removal from office, Trump “says we’re violating his free speech rights just because he’s pro-mob or pro-fire or whatever it might be.”

“Come on,” Raskin said with a smirk. “You don’t really need to go to law school to get what’s wrong with that argument.”
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/11/21 01:42 AM
Political reality is something very few want to hear. By Nov 2022 this trial will be ancient history. For most of those 44 Republican senators who will probably vote not-Guilty, that will be a vote to ensure reelection as they are from deep red states which a majority of people from their states expect a not guilty vote.

You'll have a host of other hot issues and many events that has happened between the end of this trial and election day 2022. Which all will take precedence over how someone voted in the trial. Like the first impeachment trial that wasn't even raised once during the campaign last year, this one probably won't be either come 2022. 2022 will be decided on how independents view what President Biden and the democratic controlled congress did or didn't do. Whether Biden and company made independents angry at them or if independents are satisfied and happy with Biden's leadership.

No doubt this trial is a hot issue today and probably for the next couple of weeks. Then something else will replace it, another event. That's the way these things work.

As for independents, they wanted Trump gone and voted for Biden 54-41. On 17 Jan while Trump was still president, independents favored removal and conviction by a 52-43 margin.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=3687

On 20 Jan Trump leaves the presidency, Joe Biden becomes president. On 26 Jan with Biden as president, independents came in at 40% for conviction, 41% opposed or should not vote for conviction.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/ld46rgtdlz/econTabReport.pdf

Finally, as of 9 Feb, 43% of independents are now for conviction in the senate, but 47% say the senate should not vote for conviction.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/rqqxdo2ujy/econTabReport.pdf

could be independents wanted Trump gone, he's gone, mission accomplished. Not something you all want to hear, but probable. Now if Trump faces criminal chargers, here in Georgia, New York or some place else, that could change every thing I said. If not, come Nov 2022 it'll be like the trial never happened, especially to independents who have already gotten their wish. The defeat of Trump and are anxious to move on.

Heck, two weeks to a month after the trial ends, we'll all be talking about something else. Whatever is hot then. Hopefully it'll be about charges being brought against Trump here in Georgia or some other place. But who knows?
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/11/21 02:41 AM
and yet...how many times and how many years have gone by since Hillary Clinton voted to give war powers to George W Bush? That's the entire basis for her reputation as a war monger.

No, Pero, this isn't just one of many passing events...this is an historical precedent! The second impeachment of a president and the second time members of his own party are simply refusing to even look at the evidence. But it's all on tape. And a majority of Americans think Trump should be convicted. People are actually leaving the republican party in droves and a civil war is raging within the party.

This aint just a blip on the radar. This is political upheaval and democrats won't let this vote be forgotten in November of 2022. It will come back to haunt some of them.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/11/21 04:12 AM
ahhh .... I think you are wrong on every point.

Sec Clinton had been and continues to be demonized by right wing nuts. None of the Trump supporters I know can explain why they hate the Clintons, other than to spew the generalities of corruption.

The majority of Americans do not think Mr. Trump should be convicted. I hate when pundits on cable use those words ... the majority of Americans. What that really means is most Democrats and some independents think Mr Trump should be convicted. Annnnd ... I bet most of those same pundits don't know any Trump supporters. 99% of people I know are Trump supporters, and they are still flying Trump flags and have their signs in their yards.

Democrats keep saying Republicans are leaving the party in droves etc, and there is political internecine in the Republican Party. I say pooh pooh. Sure some of the moderate Republicans have already left and some more will certainly leave, but they are not leaving in droves or even dribbles.

Liberals have certainly known who and what the Trump Base was and is. And I claim Republicans have known for many years who and what they were, but have denied the character and qualities Mr Trump allowed to be exposed. Only now no one can deny what they have seen and heard for themselves, unless you see the world through the prism of a Trumpite. Republicans have no argument with the Base, since they are held hostage by the Base (if they want to remain in power).

The Trump Base doesn't care if Democrats won't let people forget. They are empowered and emboldened. Mr Trump gave them the voice Republicans kept from them ... and now, Republicans have no choice but to bow to their voice. They came out in droves ... 73M of them. If Democrats fail to get a similar effort the next election, all that remembering will be for naught.

I see similarities between the civil rights movement of the 1960's and the awakening of white supremacy in the 2010's. They have a spokesman, and they will be around for some time.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/11/21 10:55 AM
They have a spokesman, but not for long. Trump has so many criminal and civil cases against him for various scumbaggery, that I think it will have an effect. Most people actually like to think of themselves as good. It's going to be very difficult to keep seeing yourself as good, when you ally with somebody with multiple convictions.

Not to mention all the Democratic opponents of Trump supporters running in 2022 and 2024: All that insurrection video is out there forever, all the tweets, all the Facebook posts, everything on Fox, Breitbart, OAN, etc. You don't think Democrats are going to forget to use that against their Republican opponents?

What happens when that impeachment evidence gets played for a Grand Jury? It's actual video evidence of multiple felonies, not to mention all the evidence the FBI is finding for the AG's massive RICO case. The very least that could happen when that shiz hits the fan in a federal court, is they find Trump, Cruz, and Hawley guilty of giving aid or comfort to insurrectionists and invoke the federal statute and the 14th Amendment to remove them and ban them from future office.

Quite soon, supporting the insurrection will be about as popular as supporting the Confederacy. Except with a little Jim Jones Death Cult thrown in from Trump's mishandling of the pandemic.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/11/21 02:00 PM
My attitude has always been a wait and see. Usually I've been proven right. I seen way too many events, happenings described as game changers to include Trump's first impeachment and more. Only after a couple of weeks to a month or so after the so called event changer, everything went back to the way it was prior to the event. So time will tell. I'm willing to wait to see if this lasts or doesn't. Especially among independents. I know it will among Democrats, But they're not going to vote for any Republican anyway. The group I'll be watching closely is independents. They don't pay much attention to the daily grind of politics in Washington. A lot don't pay one bit of attention until an election is close.

Now if Trump remains more or less in control of the Republican Party, what I just said may not apply. But if he fades away, it will. wait and see. I've got time. As soon as this trial is over, the next hot issue or major event takes place, independents will forget all about the trial. Democrats no, Republican that are Trumpers, no, they'll be out for revenge against to Republicans who voted for impeachment and guilty at the trial.

Sticking with independents in a Reuters poll released this AM. Independents only, To the question How much, if at all, have you watched, read about, or heard about the Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump happening this week? 31% of independents answered, almost none. Which is interesting since according to Gallup, independents made up 45% of the electorate as of 15 Jan 2021,with Democrats at 30% and Republicans at 24%. For comparison, on election day the numbers were independents 38%, 31% Democrats and 30% Republican which would be good for another subject to be talked about.

(For full results of the poll see tmsnrt.rs/36YZnA2)
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/11/21 02:09 PM
And I'll be darn. the other subject of party affiliation is here. You have this:

Exclusive: Dozens of former Republican officials in talks to form anti-Trump third party

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-dozens-former-republican-officials-023708620.html

And just as interesting is this:

There's Nothing Left': Why Thousands of Republicans Are Leaving the Party

https://www.yahoo.com/news/theres-nothing-left-why-thousands-130835550.html

According the article, 140,000 Republicans have changed their voter registration, most to unaffiliated. Sounds great, until one reads deep into the article and finds that 79,000 Democrats have also changed their party registration. So the headline is kind of misleading. But a NYT article, expected.

So the big question isn't so much party registration, it's has these folks changed their voting habits or not? Probably not. I've never trusted party registration numbers, I trust Gallup's numbers when it comes to party affiliation. I have my reasons.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/11/21 09:10 PM
Is this an actual increase in Independents, or is it from Republicans escaping Trumpism? Are most Republican-leaning Independents anti-Trumpers? I suspect they might flock to an anti-Trump Party, since it would essentially be Mitt Romney and John McCain's Republican Party.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/11/21 10:09 PM
A lot of people who mostly vote republican out of habit are disgusted with the party. Is it too early to talk about 2020?

This little imbroglio is going to reduce the new voter sign ups for republicans, It's going to cause some people to vote for their first democrat to get the Q-addled weirdos who road Trump's coattails into office, out.

The economy and the nation are ravaged right now by Trump's chaos, Biden will most likely be a beloved old president who brought back prosperity for all Americans. Things are gonna be looking pretty good two years from now!

Biden's gonna whip the virus, get Americans back to work and make nice with our allies overseas. Republicans have lost their mouthpiece. His Twitter ban is permanent. So far Biden's batting pretty much a thousand in my book. I'm a lefty but I'm also a realist, Biden's a wily old politician and he's doing all the right things so far.

So yeah, early 2022 prediction looks good for democrats.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/11/21 10:55 PM
Until the new district lines are drawn and reapportionment is completed, I'm not going to take a swipe at 2022. Not yet.

Independents can be broken down into three groups, independents lean democratic, independents lean republican and pure or true independents with no leans. The big difference is voting habits whereas those who identify with either major party votes for their party's candidates 92% of the time on average. Whereas independents who lean toward one party or the other have a much lower average of roughly 75%.

These figures are dynamic and constantly change. In Nov 2020, 38% of the electorate identified as independents. Of that 38%, 39% were republican leaning independents, 45% were democratic leaning independents with 16% as true or pure independents with no leans. As of 15 Jan 2021, Feb stats not available as of yet. As of 15 Jan 2021 independents made up 45% of the electorate of which 29% were Republican leaning independents, 47% Democratic leaning independents with 24% pure or true independents with no leans.

Since Nov 2020, the share of independents leaning Republican has dropped 10 points, the share of independents leaning democratic has risen by 2 points, while true or pure independents with no leans rose 8 points. The total share of the electorate, independents has risen from 38% to 45%.

While Republican leaning independents shrunk big, 10 points is big in this business, they didn't go over to the Democrats. The bulk went into another column of no leans.

To show you the dynamics of party affiliation, From 1 Jan 2020 through 15 Jan 2021, the Republicans had a high of 33% in Feb 2020 to a low of 24%, 15 Jan 2021, the last and latest set of figures. The Democrats ranged from a high 31% to a low of 27%, also in Feb 2020. Independents ranged from a low of 36% in Apr 2020 to a high of 45%, 15 Jan 2021, the latest.

It'll be interesting to see where these figures are at 2 months from now, when the trial is over and Trump has faded some. But these figures mean little except the November figures in an election year. But they can provide a trend.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 12:25 AM
In what country is it OK for jurors to confer with defense attorneys?

O ... I guess in America.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 12:40 AM
If you give it an honest thought, the oath for impartiality taken by all senators in the Trump trial

is totally BS. You have all 50 Democratic senators and around 45 Republican senators who are partial as all get out. Maybe 5 or 6 aren't. One could say how 95 senators would vote at the end of this trial was written in stone long before the House began its first hearing, long before the vote in the house was taken.

I'd vote guilty, so I'm probably like 95% or so of the senators, impartial as Hades. Regardless, the oath for impartiality is totally BS.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 01:35 AM
It's another blatant example of party before nation. It's another twisting of truth, another denial of facts, political theater of the absurd. The jury announced their decision before the trial ever began.

History is not going to be kind to this batch of nimrods.

It's all filmed and photographed for future historians to see it, just as we saw it. Just as the senators saw it.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 01:38 AM
Originally Posted By: rporter314
In what country is it OK for jurors to confer with defense attorneys?

O ... I guess in America.


Yeh, that place where "no man is above the law" you were talking about that place where many many rich white men are essentially above the law.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 03:02 AM
I don't know about history, but the history of impeachment is purely partisan. The letter behind one's name decides guilt and innocents. Not the evidence.

I don't think Trump will ever pay a price for sedition, inciting insurrection, the impeachment charges passed by the House. But much like Al Capone, who walked from several trials dealing with his underworld activities, killing, bootlegging, extortion, prostitution and more, it was tax evasion that finally got him.

With Trump, it may be a state DA or AG that finally gets him. Bank and insurance fraud in New York or interference with an election in Georgia, perhaps something else, but not sedition and inciting insurrection.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 04:05 AM
Quote:
I don't know about history, but the history of impeachment is purely partisan
Not sure I know what that means but certainly Pres Johnson and Clinton were partisan impeachments, but Mr Trump ....

You may believe abuse of public office is a partisan thing or that inciting an insurrection is a partisan thing, but for me it wouldn't matter which party or what political wing, those are not partisan issues. Had Pres Washington or Lincoln, or Obama done the same things as Mr Trump I would have called for their impeachment.

Sorry but Mr Trump has committed very serious offenses against the people of America, and he needs to be held accountable.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 02:01 PM
I was talking about the votes in the senate trial. They'll be along partisan lines with a couple exceptions. Then throwing Republicans and Democrats out the window, looking at the less to non-partisans, the non-affiliated, perhaps independents are saying it is time to move on and forget about Trump. He's gone.

On 17 Jan while Trump was still president, independents favored removal and conviction by a 52-43 margin.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=3687

On 20 Jan Trump leaves the presidency, Joe Biden becomes president. On 26 Jan with Biden as president, independents came in at 40% for conviction, 41% opposed or should not vote for conviction.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/ld46rgtdlz/econTabReport.pdf

Finally, as of 9 Feb, 43% of independents are now for conviction in the senate, but 47% say the senate should not vote for conviction.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/rqqxdo2ujy/econTabReport.pdf

Make what you will of those numbers, but perhaps with independents they want congress, the government to move on and tackle the present problems we now face as a nation and not keep on beating Trump to death. He's gone, mission accomplished. Now solve some darn problems.

Now you may read the numbers differently, that's fine. But like the first Trump impeachment trial, independents started out slightly in favor, over time they went to slightly opposed. The same is happening with his second impeachment trial.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 02:51 PM
Shame on You! How Self-Righteous Voters Create Silent Majorities


Shame on You! How Self-Righteous Voters Create Silent Majorities
Shy Tories, closet conservatives, and latent libertarians


This is how it works across the pond!
TAT

Quote:
But clearly Mr. Z considered the social policy of the political left to be a luxury that had to be paid for with bad economic policy — something maybe the country could afford in earlier years, but not after the economic disaster of the 1970s.

If the time and place had been different, Mr. Z might have been called a “shy Tory” — the label used to describe the voters behind the recent election upset in Britain. But where Mr. Z confessed his apostasy, the shy Tory is unwilling to discuss his or her political persuasion, at least with pollsters.

Freeman author Iain Murray was not alone in seeing a likely win for the Labour Party:

In all probability, the next government will be a Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition, held together under “confidence and supply” rules, that goes along with SNP policies where necessary. The likely result, at best, is a more European-style social democratic government, with an added dash of class warfare and Keynesianism.

But as Murray explains in a follow-up post, “The Conservatives were returned with an overall majority, Labour was wiped out by the SNP in Scotland, and the Liberal Democrats (the Conservatives’ coalition partner) collapsed across the country.”

How did that happen? “The currently accepted explanation amongst pollsters is the phenomenon of ‘shy Tories’ — people who were always going to vote Conservative but would not admit it openly.”

While the Conservatives are no doubt grateful to the shy Tories, they will eventually have to confront their shyness as a serious problem for policymakers — and for political discourse in the UK more generally.

“If, as many believe, this election was won by shy or reluctant Tories,” advises one conservative political pollster, “the party’s response for the longer term should be to ask what makes them so shy or reluctant in the first place.”

But the answer is obvious, according to Lewis Barbor, a student at University College London and self-described “proud Tory”: “for many, particularly students like myself, it is still seen as taboo to support the Conservative Party.” The pervasive signs of acceptable and unacceptable opinions on campus “make it feel as if the Left has a monopoly on university life.” I’m sure American students can identify.

Feeling that you hold minority views, however, is not enough to explain the need to misrepresent those views. Increasingly, on either side of the Atlantic, those who demur from the received wisdom of the progressive worldview are made to feel that more than a difference of opinion is at stake. Barbor quotes voter John Leisk on being a shy Tory: “Supporters of Labour and other left wing parties are convinced they have the moral high ground and that any disagreement is inhumane, as a result any confession of Tory support is shouted down and abused.”

British novelist Lionel Shriver writes in the Guardian that “‘shy’ isn’t quite the right word.… ‘Shamefaced’ comes closer.”

Across the western world, leftists tend to be political extroverts, who often literally wear the T-shirt. Anything but ashamed, they’re apt to broadcast their opinions to anyone who will listen.… For the left-leaning, political identity is liable to be closely intertwined with personal identity.… Should you get on well with leftists at a party, they will blithely assume that you share the same views [whereas] conservatives are more circumspect. They are aware that everyone disagrees with them, and so are socially cautious, if not wary or, outside their territory, paranoid.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 05:06 PM
Quote:
Mr Trump has committed very serious offenses against the people of America, and he needs to be held accountable.

Indeed.

That would be the logical and sensible thing to do.

But this is Washington we're talking about. And those senators who vote to acquit know it too. But the voters who put them in office want them to acquit. Their donors want them to acquit. Their party wants them to acquit. Even if they find it personally degrading it is their job to judge as their electorate judges. Unfortunately that's how representative democracy works.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 05:53 PM
Trump defense attorneys are playing a montage of Democrats saying fight back, fight hard etc .... but they have left one thing out .... yep any ensuing riot
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 06:01 PM
Trump defense attorneys are playing a montage of the summer riots. No Democrat was involved in starting those riots, which is unlike the Jan 6 rioters who were controlled by Mr Trump.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Mr Trump has committed very serious offenses against the people of America, and he needs to be held accountable.

Indeed.

That would be the logical and sensible thing to do.

But this is Washington we're talking about. And those senators who vote to acquit know it too. But the voters who put them in office want them to acquit. Their donors want them to acquit. Their party wants them to acquit. Even if they find it personally degrading it is their job to judge as their electorate judges. Unfortunately that's how representative democracy works.

Exactly. That's exactly how this works. It's called self preservation. Can you imagine a senator from a deep red state, one Trump carried voting guilty. His career would be over. The same can be said from senators from deep blue states, like New York and California. A not guilty vote there would cause them to be recalled and their career ended.

This is Washington indeed and it is representative government voting the way the folks back home in their states want them to vote. This is why I said on numerous occasions that impeachment is purely a political process. In today's modern political era of polarization, the great divided, mega, ultra high partisanship, one can expect no less.

Perhaps in one of the states, Georgia, New York or perhaps some other state will step forward and let justice prevail. But in the legal arena, not the political one. The political arena is too whacked out of shape to do anyone any good. The lines drawn too deeply.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 09:30 PM
The 67 vote requirement makes it a pretty sure thing Trump will not be convicted. But that has NOT always been the case: Nixon resigned specifically because Republican Senators went to the White House and warned him there were enough votes in the Senate to convict him. Republicans were different people then. Nixon had not spent his years in office turning them into sociopaths like Trump and several Republican members of congress did.

Trump's real punishment is forthcoming. There is an explicit federal statute that forbids taking part in an insurrection, and even just giving aid or comfort to insurrectionists. There are fines, prison time, and exclusion from office as punishments.

Quote:
18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

There is also a still-standing Trump executive order in place requiring a 10 year prison sentences for any demonstrator illegally occupying federal buildings, destroying federal property, etc. This was intended to protect confederate monuments, but the way it was written puts anybody inciting, planning, or taking part in the insurrection squarely in it's sites.

The AG is not going to be able to ignore either. Biden doesn't have anything to do with it, other than nominating an AG who knows what the job entails. And if you read Garland's resume, he certainly does.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/12/21 10:43 PM
There was a big difference between Nixon and Trump. The Democrats had 58 senators to the Republicans 42. The Democrats needed needed only 9 Republicans to defect whereas today, they need 17. Also the era was different. Both parties respected each other, they were friends with each other. Both parties realized that each party had the same goal, a secure, free and prosperous America. Their paths might differ a bit, but not by much. Both parties still had their liberal and conservative wings. One party wasn't just liberal while the other was just conservative. It was a mixture with each party largest faction was moderates willing to work across the aisle. 1974 wasn't an era of polarization, of divisiveness or of mega, ultra high partisanship. Very unlike today. Nixon opened up Red China, he gave us detente with the USSR, he established the EPA, OSHA, the Endangered Species act. Nixon was all for affirmative action and funds for education. This was the conservative of the times.

Also Watergate was easy to understand, a break in and a cover up. It was an entirely different political era. The Northeast was still basically Rockefeller liberal Republican while the south, the solid south conservative democratic. Carl Albert was Speaker of the House, Robert Byrd the Democratic majority leader in the senate with Hugh Scott the Republican minority leaders. None of these was party firsters as we have today.

Poll wise for Nixon, 57% of all Americans thought Nixon needed to be impeached and removed which included 31% of Republicans, 59% of independents and 71% of Democrats. Remember at the time you still had many conservative democrats loyal to Nixon. All that was needed was 9 Republican senators to go along with 58 Democratic senators and the Democrats had them.

Compare that with today, Question 51, 47% of all Americans think Trump should be convicted, 43% do not. This includes 83% of Democrats, higher than in 1974, 7% of republicans, much lower than the 31% of 1974 and 43% of independents, 16 points lower than 1974.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/rqqxdo2ujy/econTabReport.pdf

Also, there is the need for 17 Republican Senators today. Totally different in today's ideological great divide where each party views the other party as this nation's number one enemy out to destroy the nation. Also back in 1974 there weren't the negative personal attack ads, not the divide and conquer strategy used by both parties of pitting one group of voters against another.

I have no doubt that in today's political era that Nixon would have walked and if Trump did what he did back in 1974, he would have been convicted. Probably with at least 75 senators voting to convict. Such is our partisan politics of today vs. bygone eras.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 01:21 AM
This is also interesting. Joining Georgia's investigation into interference in an election and New York into bank, insurance and tax fraud, now there is this.

DC attorney general weighs legal viability of charging Trump under local statute

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/12/politics/dc-attorney-trump/index.html
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 04:30 PM
Quote:
It's called self preservation. Can you imagine a senator from a deep red state, one Trump carried voting guilty. His career would be over. The same can be said from senators from deep blue states, like New York and California. A not guilty vote there would cause them to be recalled and their career ended.
Let me point out the obviousness of your statement. There is no equivalence. Just because Democrats voted to impeach does not mean ... in this case .... it was in any way partisan. Please note the previous attempts by a couple of Democrats trying to file impeachment motions in the House, which were all voted down.

Democrats waited for Mr Trump to be Mr Trump and abuse the office in an obvious way before they voted to impeach him. The waited again for something which they hoped would never occur, but it did. How could House Democrats and for that matter any member of the House not vote to impeach a president who incited a group of people to try and over throw the election. I ask how?

How. Republicans have been extorted by the Base for years and now it has been exposed for those who "knew" and for those who only suspected. I guarantee Mr Trump could shoot Democrats on the Senate floor and Republicans would cover his arze ... they deserved it ... those pedophile, baby eating commies.

Look ... I would hope Democrats, if the situation was on the other foot, would do as I would do ... impeach and convict any Democrat who had done what Mr Trump has already done .... in spades.

The continuance of our Democracy is on the balance ... and I do not have high hopes there are enough people left in office who have the integrity to do what is right.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 04:35 PM
LOL

It seems there has been a long list of people (including me) who have claimed ... well Mr Trump may escape from a Senate trial, but he will face state charges and be convicted there.

I now wonder ... I think Mr Trump has poisoned the well of potential jurors to the point there may not be enough people left in the country who would give a honest, impartial vote on hearing the evidence. Just take a look at the Senate. Absolutely nothing impartial ... in fact Republican Senators were colluding with defense attorneys shoring up legal strategies.

My God .... we have lost the country ...
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 04:52 PM

You may be right. We all know we have around 95 senators who aren't impartial at all. All had their minds made up way before any impeachment idea was presented to the house.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 05:14 PM
Interesting how the most common legal strategy for a weak defense is to try and muck up the process and argue violations of procedure.

There should be a rule requiring one real defense argument for every procedural argument.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 06:09 PM
Quote:
We all know we have around 95 senators who aren't impartial at all. All had their minds made up way before any impeachment idea was presented to the house.
Sounds like a Fox sound bite.

I watched the events in real time. I had no problem figuring this out. Does that make it a partisan conclusion? The only partisanship we can see for certain is Republicans who from Day 1 have and had absolved Mr Trump of anything he would do. Because Democrats saw what he did and concluded he had incited an insurrection does not make that a partisan conclusion.

Sometimes the obvious is just that and partisanship has nothing to do with it.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 08:22 PM
It really doesn't matter one iota. Trump will be acquitted, pure and simple. It's political reality vs. political fantasy land. No use getting all hot and bothered. Everyone with a lick of political common sense knew even before the house took up impeachment that the vote would be 55-45 give or take, not guilty.

now some news from the legal arena where this thing should have been all along.


In Georgia, a New District Attorney Starts Circling Trump and His Allies

https://www.yahoo.com/news/georgia-district-attorney-starts-circling-152016982.html

She means business. I always assess the situation and take in all possible outcomes, determining the likeliest to happen. If that avenue seems doomed to defeat, they I look for other avenues. I never put all my eggs in one basket. Especially in the political arena where partisanship and polarization reign.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 08:23 PM
Defense closing statements are pure Castor oil...
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 09:20 PM
Excuse me! inout got run!!! ouch
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 09:22 PM
Why is McConnell saying Trump is guilty and then pretending the Senate has no role in impeaching Trump?
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 09:45 PM
Oh! Wait! I forgot. It’s McConnell.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 09:46 PM
Very strange strategy. Piss everybody off to the maximum possible?
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 10:36 PM
The Republican senators who found Trump guilty were Richard Burr of North Carolina, Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, Susan Collins of Maine, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Mitt Romney of Utah, Sasse of Nebraska and Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania.

Burr and Toomey have already announced they'll not be seeking reelection, they're retiring. So the only Republican senator up in 2022 who voted guilty is Lisa Murkowski. Murkowski could be targeted in the Alaskan GOP primary, she was in 2016 when Miller won the GOP primary. Then Murkowski ran as an independent and beat Miller. The thing is the rest can't be targeted for revenge by Trumpers in 2022. The other retiring senator, Portman of Ohio voted not Guilty.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/senate-acquit...-211230767.html

All in all, this votes in my opinion neither helps nor hurts those Republican senators up for reelection. They're 20 Republicans and 15 Democrats up in 2022 with GOP need a net gain of one seat to regain control.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/13/21 10:38 PM
The problem with sham trials that let the guilty go free, is that justice happens even if it doesn't happen at the trial. It's a whole lot safer for an obviously guilty party to be found guilty and punished. Now the jurors, who violated their oaths to be impartial jurors and to defend the constitution, all have targets on their backs.

Trump has the biggest target of them all, but I'm pretty sure nothing extra-judicial will happen to him until after all his criminal and civil trials are over. If everybody sees him as sufficiently punished, they'll let him retire for a couple of years of golf before he has his heart attack and trots along to everlasting torment. If not, somebody will decide they need to do something.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 12:07 AM
The fix was in. Mr Trump knew that ... Sen Graham told him not to worry ... the 3 amigos simply wanted the Trump team to not look like an incompetent group of TRUMP attorneys.
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 12:17 AM
Originally Posted By: rporter314
... the 3 amigos simply wanted the Trump team to not look like an incompetent group of TRUMP attorneys.

Well, they certainly failed that goal.
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 12:26 AM
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Very strange strategy. Piss everybody off to the maximum possible?


Well, it does give him the opportunity to talk out of either side of his mouth down the road.

This must be an especially tricky proposition for McConnell to go to these lengths to assure himself of video evidence that easily can be presented as him holding with whichever way the winds of politics, history and morality blow.

Extraordinary since McConnell normally has no problem exhibiting rank hypocrisy. Including in the post-trial statement where he bemoaned that the trial occurred after Trump left office; which was only because McConnell blocked it from happening before Inauguration Day.

On top of the fact that he “feels” that an ex-president cannot be subject to an impeachment trial. It doesn’t matter what McConnell feels or thinks about the trial moving forward after the Senate ruled the procedure constitutional. Except for the specific rules laid out in the Constitution, the Senate is free to make any rules they deem appropriate. The Senate ruled the trial was constitutional and could proceed. That ends that discussion. Or is McConnell saying that if Schumer disagrees with the ruling that the minority leader has a say in constituting the Senate’s organizing rules, he can just ignore that rule and organize the Senate as he sees fit? Or, more to the point, say “the way I read the filibuster rule, all of your filibusters are out of order and will not be entertained”? The rules are the rules or they are not. If not, they are excuses.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 12:51 AM

I believe history will not be kind to The Dems in this moment. Yes, the GQP acquittal was a foregone conclusion. Witnesses would have strengthened the impeachment case against Trump and added more nails to the impeachment coffin.

The trial didn't start until 1:00pm each day. The Dems could work on Joe's agenda in the morning and try Trump in the afternoon.

The capitulation by Chuck Schumer on witnesses is beyond the pale.

Hmm
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 12:55 AM
There were more than enough witnesses. The entire world watched it happen in real time. The jurors themselves, every single one of them, experienced the insurrection first hand. McConnell even said the House Managers proved their case on facts. He just bemoaned that he was forced to acquit on a procedural issue. No amount of witness testimony would impact a person with that view.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 01:41 PM
It's over, time to move on. I expected a 55-45 vote on acquittal. It was 57-42. Still 10 short of the 67 needed. We all knew this was going to happen, only the final vote count was somewhat in doubt.

Now we'll see what happens in the legal arena in places such as New York, Georgia and it looks like Washington D.C. may join the fray. But like Al Capone where his underworld crimes never brought him down, tax evasion did. Trump's sedition and inciting insurrection is probably a dead horse. But bank, insurance, tax fraud in New York State, election interference here in Georgia and whatever the D.C. DA brings may indeed be to Trump what tax evasion was to Al Capone.

Time will tell. Trump by no means isn't out of the woods yet. Here in Georgia, Rudy Giuliani for sure and maybe Lindsey Graham may also be caught up in this here.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/georgia-district-attorney-starts-circling-152016982.html

The thing is it isn't just the Atlanta DA, but our state elections board is also investigating this. We'll just have to wait and see what comes of this as in New York.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 05:25 PM
Sen Cruz confirmed the fix was in ... he told the defense attorneys Republicans were going to acquit

I suppose that means Pres Biden can incite a crowd to assault the capitol with people looking for Sen's Cruz, Hawley, and Graham ... a Democrat House will not impeach and should Republicans gain control of House in 2024 ... well Pres Biden may be out of office .... too bad ... so sad

renegade president's will be the norm ... this effectively has burned the Constitution ... we live in a lawless land with president;s above the law ... conservatives have long talked about liberal enslavement and now it could come to pass thanks to Republicans
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 07:18 PM
I find the entire attack to be very strange. Apparently those attacking were there to literally save the nation and the constitution from crazed Democrats who were determined to destroy the nation. So, basically, we had a bunch of valiant cops, tools of the crazed Democrats, trying to guard the nation from a bunch of lunatics that also wanted to save the nation.

I think that means that EVERYBODY was determined to save the nation! (from, I think, each other?) Oh, in passing I should add that several of the interloping defenders, of the nation, were also thieves.

How is this possible or probable?
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 10:36 PM


I
Originally Posted By: jgw
I find the entire attack to be very strange. Apparently those attacking were there to literally save the nation and the constitution from crazed Democrats who were determined to destroy the nation. So, basically, we had a bunch of valiant cops, tools of the crazed Democrats, trying to guard the nation from a bunch of lunatics that also wanted to save the nation.

I think that means that EVERYBODY was determined to save the nation! (from, I think, each other?) Oh, in passing I should add that several of the interloping defenders, of the nation, were also thieves.

How is this possible or probable?


I have no doubt that is what most of those who took over the Capital thought. But it's just another sign of our modern era of politics. The polarization, the divisiveness and mega, ultra high partisanship. Each major party sees those of the opposite party as this nation's number one enemy out to destroy this nation. Below is a poll from last December which sums it up nicely.

Voters See Each Other as America’s Enemy

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_...tm_medium=email

The advent of the divide and conquer strategy utilized by both major parties, of pitting one group of voters against another, the maximum use of negative personal attacks with the planned intention of getting the voter to hate the other guy or party more than they hate you and your party in search of votes.

We have the violent protest on 6 Jan, but most of us forget the peaceful protests all over the country after Trump won in 2016. This is escalation. Those who support Trump have always thought the Democrats were out to destroy him and this nation since day one of his presidency. There was no honeymoon period for Trump as has been the case with every other president. Time will tell whether Biden joins Trump with no honeymoon period, normally the first 100 days of a new administration. Here the opposing party approval rating of the new presidents at the end of January of their first year in office.

Trump 9% of Democrats
Obama 41% of Republicans
G.W. Bush 32% of Democrats, even after Florida and the SCOTUS ending the recount.
Bill Clinton 33% of Republicans
G.H.W. Bush 38% of Democrats
Reagan 38% of Democrats
Carter 49% of Republicans

Notice that at least a third of the opposing party was more than willing to give the new president a chance. Not so with Trump. Deserved or not, this perception if you will steam rolled from there that the Democrats and I'll throw in the MSM were out to destroy their man, Trump.

I doubt Republicans will give Biden any leeway at all even if Biden tries to reach across the aisle and work with Republicans. Republicans are peeved to the max at the treatment Trump received at the hands of the democrats, deserved or not.

I'd say we've been building up to the violence and Capital take over since the 1990's. Trump was the result of that buildup. Not the cause.

We've had 20-30 years of personal negative attacks against the other candidate from both parties that the other candidate and party are out to kill your grandmother and destroy this nation. After awhile, folks began to believe exactly that as they been told that so many times from their political leaders and candidates, it must be true.

My two cents anyway.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/14/21 11:12 PM
I think the "both Parties do it" line is a bit ridiculous: Democrats didn't like Trump because he was incompetent. And they were actually right. His mishandling of the pandemic killed half a million people, including lot's of folks grandmothers, far more than any other country in the world since they had even slightly competent leaders. His followers plotted to murder opponents, and did kill some of them.

Biden's followers are not killing anybody. Their complaints about Trump are justified 100 times over. Even Mitch McConnell said so.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/15/21 12:37 AM
What the article was about how members of each party views the other. Outside of that, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/15/21 01:08 AM
Quote:
Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/15/21 04:51 AM
Quote:
Notice that at least a third of the opposing party was more than willing to give the new president a chance. Not so with Trump.
I did not read past this comment.

Maybe you never saw Mr Trump prior to his election. Despite the fact he suffers from narcissism, he is a piece of human garbage. That so many Democrats/Republicans saw it is not the problem. The problem is almost all Republicans failed to see it.

Policywise any Republican candidate in 2016 would have done almost the same types of things. In their case, they did not suffer from blatant racial/religious bigotry and at least had a semblance of respect for the Constitution.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/15/21 02:18 PM
Be that as it may, Trump seems to be dividing the GOP as they shifted their support for a third party from 40% up to 63%. Much more in the article.

Support for Third U.S. Political Party at High Point

62% say a third party is needed, up from 57% in September
Highest support for a third party by one percentage point
A record-high 63% of Republicans favor a third party


Independents are usually much more likely than Republicans or Democrats to favor a third political party, but in the current poll, Republicans are nearly as likely as independents to hold this view, 63% to 70%. That represents a dramatic shift for Republicans since last September when 40% favored a third party.

Republicans' current level of support for a third party is also the highest Gallup has measured for Republicans or Democrats in Gallup's trend. The previous high was 54% for Democrats in 2018. Currently, 46% of Democrats endorse a third party, down from 52% in September.

Republicans' record desire for a third party comes at a time when they are deciding whether to remain loyal to Trump or to move on from him.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/329639/supp...ign=syndication


Also on the Democratic Divide

Democrats Divided on the Direction of Their Party
Democrats' internal divisions between its moderate and liberal wings appear to be muted for now, following the party's victory in the presidential election and its regaining a Senate majority while maintaining a House majority. Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents are evenly divided on the direction their party should go -- 34% want it to become more liberal, 34% more moderate, and 31% to stay where it is.

Democratic identifiers tilt more toward wanting the party to go in a liberal direction (34%) than a moderate one (25%), while Democratic-leaning independents tilt toward wanting the party to become more moderate, 42% to 35%.

This later may be important as the latest party affiliation by Gallup puts independents making up 50% of the electorate as of 2 Feb 2021. A record high. Although breaking down independents into three groups, 34% of independents lean Republican, 52% of independents lean Democratic with 14% being true or pure independents with no leans.

Independents in general don't like Trump, so they're siding with the Democrats as of now. But in the future they'll move around, be very dynamic all depending on what President Biden and the democratic congress does or doesn't do. Give it a couple of months for Trump to fade, then we'll look again at these numbers.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/15/21 04:56 PM
Quote:
I doubt Republicans will give Biden any leeway at all even if Biden tries to reach across the aisle and work with Republicans. Republicans are peeved to the max at the treatment Trump received at the hands of the democrats, deserved or not.


But Pero...you, and most other right leaners seem to have completely forgotten the way Obama was treated. That Clinton was impeached for lying about a blowjob.

You reckon maybe Democrats had any right to be peeved?

Even after Clinton was impeached, after Bush started two wars and crashed the economy, Obama tried to reach across the aisle, the ACA was practically written by Republicans...their only goal was to destroy him.

And now you want to tell me that Dems were not respectful to Trump and so Republicans will never respect Biden...

Do you even wonder why people are leaving both parties?
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/15/21 05:59 PM
For me it's a great sign more and more people are leaving the two major parties. The only problem with that is the two major parties have a monopoly on our election system. Both will go to any lengths at preserving their monopoly.

Actually the two major parties have more power over our election system today with but 50% of the electorate identifying with them than they did when 80% affiliated themselves with the two major parties.

Hence, more and more folks are getting fed up with both. Perhaps what is happening is they want whatever party is in power to have an American agenda, to govern the country as a whole and not just for their base. Both seem to ignore the rest of the country, the 70% who aren't their base and tell them to go to Hades in a hand basket. We're in power, to Hades with the rest of you.

Yes, I totally disdain both political parties, it's both parties leaders that has brought on our modern era of politics, the polarization, the great divide, the mega, ultra high partisan where each puts party first way above country if either even thinks of the country.

Sure, the impeachment of Bill Clinton was absurd, asinine to the max. That about when each party started to put their party way above country. That's when we began down that road to polarization, divisiveness and mega, ultra partisan. where each party thinks the other party is this nations number one enemy and needs to be destroyed. If the country gets destroyed, so be it, all is well as the other party is also destroyed.

Working together was possible. Eisenhower had LBJ, then the senate majority leader over to the White house every week to discuss how to get IKE's agenda through congress. JFK and then LBJ worked very closely with Everit Dirksen, then the Republican minority leader to get their agenda through congress. Heck, Tip O'Neal and Reagan, their cooperation and playing the game of give and take are stuff of legends.

https://www.ajc.com/news/opinion/reagan-...cropVcAwYk0GBI/

So what happened? You know darn well that Previous senate leaders, Lott and Daschle, Mitchell and Dole, Baker and Byrd wouldn't even dream of the nuclear option, let alone be the first to use it. They respected each other and worked with each other. It's the leaders of both major parties that has brought us to where we are. Blame the Republicans for everything, that's fine. They shoulder quite a lot of the blame, but so too do the Democrats.

I just hope more folks leave both political parties until both are down to just 10%. Yes, there's a reason why folks are leaving and have been for quite a while. In 2006, independents made up but 30% of the electorate, if Gallup has it right, they now make up 50% and growing. Perhaps the reason is both parties only represent themselves and not the people who sent them to D.C. Only represent their political party and not the nation. Only govern for their base and not America as a whole.

Okay, off my soap box. Yeah, the GOP tried to destroy Bill Clinton, one of my favorite presidents in my life time. Behind IKE and JFK. Then the Republicans went after Obama and the Democrats get after Trump. Now the Republicans will go after Biden. So we live for revenge, not good government. At least our two major parties do. It will continue to escalate. If the GOP takes back the house in 2022, they'll impeach Biden for sure. Revenge. Then when the Republican win back the presidency, the Democrats will impeach whoever that is.

Protest and violence will follow each and every election from now on. I place all the blame on the two major parties leadership. Not on just one as you do, but on both. It takes two to tango. I gave the reasons before as to why we are now in our modern political era of polarization, the great divide and mega ultra high partisanship. The results of both major party leaderships.

I suppose the difference is I'm looking at this as an outsider. Never belonging to either major party, just the tiny Reform Party. I'm not looking at this as a Democratic nor a Republican, not from the left nor the right, just as someone totally fed up with all of this.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/15/21 09:28 PM
For me it's hard to blame both parties for the Jan 6 violence.
\
Any future violence is liable to be perpetrated by that same party

We don't have a problem with Democrats arming themselves and storming statehouses. We don't have a problem with Democratic militia members.
White supremicists seem to have chosen the Republican party, Nazis have chosen the Republican party. Neo-confederates have all joined that party.

Spare me the claims of antifa and the BLM movement's violence, it pales in comparison.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/15/21 10:51 PM
Originally Posted By: perotista
For me it's a great sign more and more people are leaving the two major parties.

I suppose the difference is I'm looking at this as an outsider. Never belonging to either major party, just the tiny Reform Party. I'm not looking at this as a Democratic nor a Republican, not from the left nor the right...


I get really tired of the argument: Well, on the other hand the Dems did this and the Gop did that, and on the other hand independents would do better, but on the other hand Hillary's emails and Benghazi are the moral and ethical equivalent to sedition, but on the other hand...
It would be tolerable if the argument was cogently stated, but endlessly restating... deadhorse Dems on the other hand did this or that, brings on the aggravation of the undecided voter in late October who remains ambivalent about the fine points on distinguishing good versus evil, but on the other hand it protects ambivalents from that dreaded dealing with decisional conflicts, but on the other hand seeing both sides of anything is...
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/16/21 09:23 PM
Anyone who would attempt to hold a Right-thinking American (redundant, I know; True Americans, by definition are Right-thinking) responsible for the results of their words, actions and deeds is obviously a divisive, hateful, ungodly Socialist whose words and opinions can be dismissed out of hand. Everyone knows that anything done by a True American is by definition Right and Good. All Evil is perpetrated by Liberals, often cleverly disguised as Americans.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/17/21 12:45 PM
Two things - presidential elections are basically beauty contests, especially for independents. They're not political junkies and pay very little if any attention to the day to day grind of daily politics going on in Washington D.C. A plurality of them decide who they'll be voting for within 2-4 weeks of an election based mostly on their perspectives of the candidates. whether they like them or not. Those who decided earlier are the independents who lean toward one party or the other. If one looks at the favorable/unfavorable view independents have of the candidates, one can come within a few percentage points of knowing how they'll vote. Stances on issues etc. don't mean that much unless they're angry at the party in power for doing or passing something independents didn't like nor want. Issues, platforms, etc. are something political junkies get into, not the average American Joe unless it is an issue that effects him personally.

Two -Trump will pay at some point in time in the legal arena as the political arena let him walk. I always said the political arena was the wrong arena.

Riot lawsuit just part of Trump's post-impeachment problems

https://www.yahoo.com/news/riot-lawsuit-just-part-trumps-195222517.html
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/17/21 05:43 PM
Quote:
presidential elections are basically beauty contests, especially for independents. They're not political junkies and pay very little if any attention to the day to day grind of daily politics going on in Washington D.C. A plurality of them decide who they'll be voting for within 2-4 weeks of an election based mostly on their perspectives of the candidates. whether they like them or not.


So, Pero, according to you, if you aren't a member of a political party you tend to be uninformed and disinterested in politics. Incapable of grasping the nuances of how government works and might affect your own interests. And yet they vote anyway for whichever candidate catches their fancy two weeks before election day. A beauty contest, nothing more.

Independents will forget all about the capital riots, forget the president's role in it, forget which party supported smearing feces on the walls of the capital building, which party supported beating one policeman with an American flag and beating another to death with a fire extinguisher.

Just floating along in their little independent bubbles...one day being in favor of abortion, the next thinking it is murder...one day wishing for government healthcare...the next saying it's not the government's job.

Just because you are non partisan does not mean you are too stupid to see which one likes what.

Too stupid to hold any group accountable.

Nossir. Because human nature is what it is "independents" are divided along exactly the same ideological divides. There's a wishy washy center, generally comfortable with the status quo, left leaners who want change, and right wingers who are against change.

Egalitarians vs Authoritarians.

It's not a beauty pageant, it's a referendum.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/17/21 10:35 PM
In the Georgia senate races, I think the main reason Democrats won is that Mitch McConnell bought their votes. He fought the $2000 stimulus tooth and nail, while Democrats endorsed it. I have no clue what he was thinking! That getting another $1400 dollar check was meaningless to those folks? I think that $1400 paycheck drove a LOT of people to the polls or to mail in their ballots.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/17/21 10:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
presidential elections are basically beauty contests, especially for independents. They're not political junkies and pay very little if any attention to the day to day grind of daily politics going on in Washington D.C. A plurality of them decide who they'll be voting for within 2-4 weeks of an election based mostly on their perspectives of the candidates. whether they like them or not.


So, Pero, according to you, if you aren't a member of a political party you tend to be uninformed and disinterested in politics. Incapable of grasping the nuances of how government works and might affect your own interests. And yet they vote anyway for whichever candidate catches their fancy two weeks before election day. A beauty contest, nothing more.

Independents will forget all about the capital riots, forget the president's role in it, forget which party supported smearing feces on the walls of the capital building, which party supported beating one policeman with an American flag and beating another to death with a fire extinguisher.

Just floating along in their little independent bubbles...one day being in favor of abortion, the next thinking it is murder...one day wishing for government healthcare...the next saying it's not the government's job.

Just because you are non partisan does not mean you are too stupid to see which one likes what.

Too stupid to hold any group accountable.

Nossir. Because human nature is what it is "independents" are divided along exactly the same ideological divides. There's a wishy washy center, generally comfortable with the status quo, left leaners who want change, and right wingers who are against change.

Egalitarians vs Authoritarians.

It's not a beauty pageant, it's a referendum.




2022 will be decided on what President Biden and the democratic controlled congress does or doesn't do. Not because of the senate trial which will be ancient history by that time. Give it a month or two from now, we'll all be talking about new hot issues, perhaps an unforeseen event or two, the trial will basically be forgotten.

Remember the first impeachment trial, it wasn't even raised during the general election campaign of 2020 and that one happened in Feb 2020.

Folks are much more interested in what is happening now, today than what happened 2 years ago. Wait and see. That the way these things work. Every major event is always seen as a game changer, but two, three weeks after the major even, everything reverts back to where it was prior to the event. Something else has taken its place.

We'll see, I don't think when Nov 2022 rolls around the Trial will be much of an issue. Stuff that happened and is happening leading up to the election will be much more important in deciding the outcome of 2022.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/17/21 11:05 PM
Besides, I think Trump will be so busy with lawsuits, he won't have time for politics and will fade away like all ex-presidents. Trump will be making the news for all the different lawsuits filed against him which he will be defending himself. But these trials when they happen won't be the lead story, more as filler as time goes by. Trump may even find himself in jail, all depends.

Trump will be 'busy' with lawsuits for the rest of his life: Laurence Tribe

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/donal...-151741167.html
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/18/21 03:06 AM
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
In the Georgia senate races, I think the main reason Democrats won is that Mitch McConnell bought their votes. He fought the $2000 stimulus tooth and nail, while Democrats endorsed it. I have no clue what he was thinking! That getting another $1400 dollar check was meaningless to those folks? I think that $1400 paycheck drove a LOT of people to the polls or to mail in their ballots.


If a voter ain’t swayed by hate and fear, they ain’t worth the time of day.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/18/21 10:39 AM
Hear, hear, for hate and fear!
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/18/21 01:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Irked
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
In the Georgia senate races, I think the main reason Democrats won is that Mitch McConnell bought their votes. He fought the $2000 stimulus tooth and nail, while Democrats endorsed it. I have no clue what he was thinking! That getting another $1400 dollar check was meaningless to those folks? I think that $1400 paycheck drove a LOT of people to the polls or to mail in their ballots.


If a voter ain’t swayed by hate and fear, they ain’t worth the time of day.
Try putting up with over a billion dollars worth of hate and fear from both parties with most of that billion dollars coming from out of state for 2 months. So much negative personal attacks ads I didn't turn on my TV set for the last 3 weeks of the runoff election. I couldn't take it anymore.

Think about that, 1 billion plus for 2 senate seats. The two major candidates spent 2.6 billion on the entire presidential campaign, Biden 1.6 billion, Trump 1 billion rounded off.

https://www.opensecrets.org/2020-presidential-race

Actually, the reason the two Democrats won has more to do with Trump. He's down here telling Republicans that their vote won't be counted, that the runoffs are rigged. Then too independents went to the democratic senator candidates 51-43 which they made up 26% of all those who voted. If the two Democrats hadn't won independents, they would have lost.

Denigrate independents all you want, but without them the GOP would have won both races and had a 52-48 senate majority. But by the same token, it was independents that enabled the Republicans to pick up 13 house seats, 2 state legislatures and a governorship back in November while Biden was winning the presidency by 7 plus million votes. Lots of ticket splitters there, voting for Biden, then Republican down ballot.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/18/21 02:19 PM
Originally Posted By: perotista
Try putting up with over a billion dollars worth of hate and fear from both parties with most of that billion dollars coming from out of state for 2 months. So much negative personal attacks ads I didn't turn on my TV set for the last 3 weeks of the runoff election. I couldn't take it anymore.

Think about that, 1 billion plus for 2 senate seats. The two major candidates spent 2.6 billion on the entire presidential campaign, Biden 1.6 billion, Trump 1 billion rounded off.

Actually, the reason the two Democrats won has more to do with Trump. He's down here telling Republicans that their vote won't be counted, that the runoffs are rigged. Then too independents went to the democratic senator candidates 51-43 which they made up 26% of all those who voted. If the two Democrats hadn't won independents, they would have lost.

Denigrate independents all you want, but without them the GOP would have won both races and had a 52-48 senate majority. But by the same token, it was independents that enabled the Republicans to pick up 13 house seats, 2 state legislatures and a governorship back in November while Biden was winning the presidency by 7 plus million votes. Lots of ticket splitters there, voting for Biden, then Republican down ballot.


But, "answering purrfectly", aren't there "very fine people on all three sides"?
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/18/21 05:27 PM
Quote:
2022 will be decided on what President Biden and the democratic controlled congress does or doesn't do.


So it's a referendum, not a beauty pageant.

Quote:
I don't think when Nov 2022 rolls around the Trial will be much of an issue.


Everything a politician has ever voted on is an issue when they run for office. If the voters should happen to forget about Josh Hawley pumping his fist in support of the insurrectionists, Democrats will remind them. If they happen to forget that Ted Cruz was a Trump lickspittle, who supported the big anti-democracy lie...Democrats will remind them.

What we're going to see in the next two years is a recovering economy, a pandemic coming under control, and Joe Biden dealing competently with any crisis which arises. Perhaps we'll see a $15 minimum wage.

Is that enough to outrage independents? Enough to get them out of their comfort zones so they'll swing back to supporting Republicans who they feel have their best interests at heart?

Will they demand lower pay, less healthcare, more wars, and cutting taxes for the rich? Maybe so...what do you think?
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/18/21 05:27 PM
I have long wondered if all this negative personal attacks, this divide and conquer strategy employed by both major parties isn't the reason we're now in our modern political era of polarization, the great divide and mega, ultra high partisanship where each party views the other as this nation's number one enemy out to destroy this country.

How can one expect these peoples to work together to accomplish anything when they have portrayed their opponents as the worst scumbags in the galaxy. The hate has to remain, residual hate from the campaigns from both sides toward the other.

Perhaps this portrayal of scumbagness, painting the other party in worse than the worse light available has put a stop to any cooperation, working together, compromise and playing the new defunct game of give and take. Where each party's base truly believes all the negativity of the other party where it breeds hate for the other party and an unwillingness to even try to work together. Where each party's goal isn't accomplishing anything, but stopping the other party from accomplishing whatever they propose.

True, the Republicans tried to stop everything Obama proposed, Democrats tried to stop everything Trump proposed and now the Republicans will be trying to stop any and all Biden's proposals.

Not like the previous eras, at least in my lifetime.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/18/21 05:59 PM
It's hard to campaign on your opponent's success. Anything else is "negative personal attacks". I question your logic here. Democrats generally speak the truth about Republican intransigence, Republicans make up sh*t out of whole cloth with no regard to truth.

You already made your point about just how dumb, uncaring, and ill informed independents are so they couldn't be expected to know the difference. Most will turn off their teevees, hide their heads in the sand and vote for the prettiest candidate.

Frozen wind turbines and the Green New Deal caused the Texas power outages and forced the price of wholesale electricity up 10,000% in a state that gets 80% of its power from oil and natural gas. There's your republican truth and I reckon independents are lapping it up and crying for AOCs head for causing the cold weather.

Show me some comparable Democratic lies plz...I'll wait.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/18/21 09:08 PM
You didn't have to go through around 2 months of billion dollars worth of political advertising of both sides calling the others side every dirty name and accused the other side of killing off the worlds population at least three times.

Not once for that billion dollar plus did a single candidate out of the four ever give you a single reason to vote for them. They gave a billion dollars worth of why not to vote for the other party's candidates. I don't buy this holier than thou attitude. Not having to sit through all of that.

Yes, most of all of that were down right lies about the other candidates. Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan were angels as pure as mother Teresa compared to what the four candidates were calling and painting the other candidates.

I'll tell you this, if I was one of the four candidates who won, I sure as heck wouldn't cooperate with the other party. I'd be looking for political revenge and perhaps even other types of revenge for all that was heaped on me by them and their party. So I can see where revenge comes into play along with hate for the other side. It's only natural. Human so to speak. There's no going back any more to substance, of ideas, visions of the future, possible solutions to our problems, of giving the voter reason to vote for you. Those days are long gone.

We'll only paint the other guy and party as the most evil beings in the galaxy and hope like the dickens the voters hate them more than they hate you.

As an after thought. We all know Republicans are going to vote for Republicans and Democrats for Democrats no matter how bad one party or the other paints and describes the other party's candidate. So perhaps all this negativity is to try to get independents to hate the other party's candidates more than they hate yours. Perhaps all this hate and lies each candidate and party are telling about the other is only in an attempt to get independents to vote for them or at least against the other party's candidates. Few actually vote for a candidate anymore, it always for the lesser of two evils, the least worst candidates or the candidate you want to lose the least. Not win, but lose the least. Either that or it's vote third party against both major parties which happen in 2016.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/19/21 12:56 AM
We all also know that tens of thousands of republicans are leaving the party. We can surmise that tens of thousands of new voters are registering as Democrats or independents rather than as republicans.

Trump lost the House in 2018 and the Senate and White House in 2020.

Lindsey Graham says Republicans can not win without Trump, I say they cannot win with or without him. The post election shenanigans left a sour taste in the mouths of Americans and it isn't going to be forgotten soon.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/19/21 03:28 PM
Exactly, I read that article 140,000 Republicans have left, most to the independent or non-affiliated category. Further down in the article it also stated 79,000 had left the Democratic Party.

https://people.com/politics/data-shows-tens-of-thousands-of-republicans-left-the-party/

the big question is, has any of those Republicans
changed their voting habits. Anti Trumpers in 2018 voted for the Democratic congressional candidates. Anti Trumpers in 2020 voted for Biden, but Republican down ballot. Which resulted in a net gain of 13 seats in the house, 2 state legislatures and a governorship last November while Trump was losing by 7 plus million votes. That means a lot of ticket splitters, those who wanted Trump gone, but also remained loyal Republicans down ballot.

The result was a presidential candidate winning the popular vote via his way to the white house while losing house seats for the first time since 1884. Trump won't be on the ballot come 2022 much like Hillary Clinton wasn't on the ballot in 2018 to save Trump and the Republican congressional candidates.

As someone who does election forecasts, I won't on the house this early as reapportionment has to occur and new district lines drawn. But I will say this, past events have little to nothing to do with an election. It's what is hot at the time, what event has just happened, not something 2 years in the past. Regardless of the outcome of the trial, Republicans are going to vote for republicans, democrats for democrats. The old adage of my worst candidate is always better than your best candidate always comes into play. Call it party loyalty or partisanship or whatever.

For sure democrats will remember the trial, sour taste and all. But they weren't going to vote republican anyway. It becomes irrelevant to the 2022 midterm results. That my friend is a political reality. Heck, the trial has already begun to fade from the minds of independents as they just want to move on to see how Biden and the Democratic controlled congress will govern and begin to solve this nation's problems. They wanted Trump gone, he's gone, mission accomplished.

Party affiliation doesn't mean anything this far out. Only within a month or two of an election do I usually pay attention to it as history has shown that 95% of Republicans and Democrats will vote for their congressional candidates in a midterm. Using party affiliation numbers and that percentage one can easily figure out how the two major parties will vote. Independents are another matter as one has to figure out their leans and how many are pure/true independents with no leans. It's not as difficult as it seems and using my own formula, I pretty much been dead on in my forecasts as far as the house and senate were concerned.

Here's a short history of party affiliation election day to present.
Nov 2020, election day, 30% republican, 31% Democratic, 38% independent
17 Dec 2020, 25% Republican, 31% Democratic, 41% independent
15 Jan 2021,25% Republican, 30% Democratic, 45% independent
2 Feb 2021, 25% Republican, 25% Democratic, 50% independent

Party affiliation is very dynamic. It changes constantly. Regardless, I'd say right now folks are very unhappy with both major parties. Probably because they feel too much attention has been placed on Trump and not enough on solving this country's problem. Just a SWAG.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/19/21 06:28 PM
Folks are a lot more unhappy with Republicans than Democrats.

Quote:
But I will say this, past events have little to nothing to do with an election. It's what is hot at the time, what event has just happened, not something 2 years in the past.


Tell that to Hillary Clinton.

I do election forecasts as well, generally based on a "what if the election were held today" format. I was right about Obama twice, I was wrong about Clinton, and I was right about Trump. Given what I know about Biden and what is likely to happen over the next two years I have no qualms about predicting Democratic gains in congress.

Will the bad stuff that Democrats do in the next two years be outweighed by the good things Republicans do? Or will Republicans fall back on the old socialism trope that has worked so well for them in the past?

Will everyone totally forget about the Trump years or view them as happy successful years we need to return to? Will candidates running on Trumpism be successful in two years? Lindsey Graham thinks so.
Is Trumpism the future or are those candidates doomed because everyone will completely forget about Trump and his radical anti-social agenda? After all that's not recent and your imaginary future voters have no memories beyond the latest news cycle...
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/19/21 08:00 PM
It's way too early to make any house predictions. I'll wait on reapportionment and the drawing of district lines. I do think from here on out the focus will be on President Biden and the Democratic controlled congress and not on Republicans. They're out of power and have relative little say in what goes on.

Give it a few months and we'll see if the focus is still on Trump and the Republican party or if it has shifted to the party in power. I think that shift has already begun, especially among independents who wanted Trump gone. Now they have questions about the Biden administration.

Today, independents are very happy with Biden and company, no doubt about that. But all the focus has been on Trump, his impeachment and his trial. No focus so to speak has been given to Biden. That's about to change.

I have no idea at this point how 2022 will turn out. That is outside of the issues and events that happen close to election day 2022 will have a significant impact on the results. Not something that happened 2 years in the past.

If Trump still holds sway over the Republican Party and his supporters primary out certain incumbents because of their wrath for voting for impeachment, that's helps the Democrats. Much easier to win an open seat than to beat an incumbent.

Murkowski is the only Republican senator up in 2022. But Alaskan's love her. She already was defeated in a GOP primary in 2010 by Joe Miller, she ran as an independent and won easily. She'll probably do it again if need be.

Now if long memories persist, 2024 may be a bad year for a couple of Democratic senators who voted to convict Trump. Tester from Montana and Brown from Ohio went against the people's of their states wishes in voting to convict Trump. 23 Democrats are up for reelection that year vs. 10 for the Republicans.

Now with Toomey, Burr and Portman retiring leaving their seats open for 2022, there's a great chance the democrats can pick up all 3. Time will tell.
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/19/21 08:50 PM
Voters pay attention to what the media they consume tell them to pay attention to. It really is that simple.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/19/21 09:12 PM
Yes, conservatives gravitate to Fox and liberals to CNN and MSNBC. They get the news they want in the manner they want it. Democrats are evil and bad on Fox, Republicans evil and bad on CNN and MSNBC.

Being corporate owned, their first priority is to keep the viewership they have by presenting the news with the proper slant to keep their viewers happy and returning. Then they shift to adding more viewers. The more viewership, the more they can charge for their commercials, the more money they make.

News is just another business venture to these corporations.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/19/21 09:53 PM
I think the GOP in Alaska has left Murkowski: She may have too strict a sense of ethics to just jump right into the opposition Party without a vote of the people. Come 2022, she could run from the start as a Democrat and win.

As for Trump leaving the public eye in 2022, the courts work much slower than that. Especially because Trump's main legal tactic is to make his cases take as long as possible. Each new Trump defeat is going to degrade the reputation of Trump apologists, and that's going to go on for years.

It's going to be a very long time before the Republican gets back to being a unified Party. Senate Republicans made sure of that.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/19/21 11:34 PM
Quote:
the Republicans tried to stop everything Obama proposed, Democrats tried to stop everything Trump proposed and now the Republicans will be trying to stop any and all Biden's proposals.


Name a few things Trump proposed that Democrats should have helped him with...I'll wait.

Walls? Muslim Bans? Separation of families? Tariffs? Trade wars? Tax cuts for the wealthy?

Surely you can list all the good things Trump proposed that Democrats struck down...
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/20/21 12:29 AM
Y’all know how this goes: I call you a n****** lovin’ child-molesting America-hating Satanist from a sh*thole country where people don’t even know what shoes are and you point out that is racists of me. Obviously, it’s impossible to have a civilized conversation with someone who flings the racist epithet at anyone who disagrees with them.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/20/21 12:33 AM
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think the GOP in Alaska has left Murkowski: She may have too strict a sense of ethics to just jump right into the opposition Party without a vote of the people. Come 2022, she could run from the start as a Democrat and win.

As for Trump leaving the public eye in 2022, the courts work much slower than that. Especially because Trump's main legal tactic is to make his cases take as long as possible. Each new Trump defeat is going to degrade the reputation of Trump apologists, and that's going to go on for years.

It's going to be a very long time before the Republican gets back to being a unified Party. Senate Republicans made sure of that.


Murkowski, here:

Murkowski gains immunity from Trump revenge with Alaska’s new voting system

https://www.alaskapublic.org/2021/01/29/...-voting-system/

Remember in 2010 the tea party with their nominee Joe Miller won the Alaskan GOP primary. Murkowski defeated both Miller and the Democrat in the general election.

You're probably right about the courts. But it remains how much attention independents will be giving the court battle vs. their focus on how President Biden and the Democratic controlled congress are doing come 2022. Time will tell.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/20/21 12:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
the Republicans tried to stop everything Obama proposed, Democrats tried to stop everything Trump proposed and now the Republicans will be trying to stop any and all Biden's proposals.


Name a few things Trump proposed that Democrats should have helped him with...I'll wait.

Walls? Muslim Bans? Separation of families? Tariffs? Trade wars? Tax cuts for the wealthy?

Surely you can list all the good things Trump proposed that Democrats struck down...


Why would I? I voted against him twice. I always disliked the 74 year old who acted like a 4 year old spoiled brat with his temper tantrums and name calling along with his 3rd grade schoolyard bullying tactics.

As for separating of families, that was begun during Obama.

https://apnews.com/article/a98f26f7c9424b44b7fa927ea1acd4d4

Trump has a lot to answer for, no doubt. But the courts will eventually do that. Have faith. Legal arena vs. Political arena.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/20/21 02:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Greger
Name a few things Trump proposed that Democrats should have helped him with... I’ll wait.

Stomping Lyin’ Ted? Annihilating Little Marco?
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/20/21 05:07 PM
Originally Posted By: perotista

Why would I? I voted against him twice.


Actually, you didn't vote against him the first time, you voted for a third party enabler, allowing your irrational hatred of Hillary, probably the best prepared presidential candidate in our memory, to lose to a monster. Some may call that a principle, but it was not a rational decision, and look at the results.
A true rational independent should be able to look beyond decades of GOP demonizing, and make a fact based decision.

But, on the other hand, if it's viewed as a beauty contest...
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/21/21 12:05 AM
Originally Posted By: TatumAH
Originally Posted By: perotista

Why would I? I voted against him twice.


Actually, you didn't vote against him the first time, you voted for a third party enabler, allowing your irrational hatred of Hillary, probably the best prepared presidential candidate in our memory, to lose to a monster. Some may call that a principle, but it was not a rational decision, and look at the results.
A true rational independent should be able to look beyond decades of GOP demonizing, and make a fact based decision.

But, on the other hand, if it's viewed as a beauty contest...


Wrong, I voted against both in 2016. If I had voted for Trump, his vote total would have rose by 1. If I voted for Hillary, her vote total would have rose by 1. By voting against both, neither vote total rose.

If I had it all to do over again, I'd still vote against both. Myself and most likely most of the 9 million or 6% of the total electorate who did. The dislike of both was that high. 2016 was an election where 25% of all Americans didn't want neither one to become the next president. That's 54% of all independents who disliked both and didn't want neither one to win either.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-...candidates.aspx

I always ask the question when it comes down to presidential candidates would such and such a candidate leaves this country in better shape once that candidate left office than when that candidate first entered.

In my mind, both 2016 major party candidates answer was in the negative. So I voted for a candidate that wouldn't leave this country in worst shape. I'm no party loyalist like most and am no ideologue. I just vote the way I see things. Party means nothing to me.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/21/21 04:07 PM
While you don't support Trump, he is the lynchpin of modern "conservative" policymaking. So why would you list the good things done by Trump and the Republican Party for me? Because as an actual non partisan swing voter you can see the beauty of authoritarianism where I just see its failures. You can see the reasons to avoid egalitarianism where I view it as the ultimate goal set forth in our constitution.

Perot, like it or not, you are a conservative. You might as well claim the ideology you display daily here. In 2016 there were no conservatives on the ballot. A liberal and a TEA Party populist.

One was a well qualified candidate, one was a disaster waiting to happen. You chose not to avert the disaster and went with a small but significant trend siding against both and resulting in the Trump victory.

I can't imagine how you thought Clinton would make the country worse than it was at the end of the Obama administration. She might have made it a little more liberal perhaps...?




Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/22/21 03:19 AM
Quote:
a little more liberal perhaps

Perhaps not. Most people to the Left of the Clintons said they were actually Moderate Republicans. That's probably because of Bill's habit of triangulation, adopting Moderate Republican ideas and then getting credit for them when people liked his programs. That drove the GOP crazy.

Was Hillary more Progressive than Obama? Hard to say because Obama only had about 14 months when he could accomplish anything.

So in 2016, I think the choice was between a Moderate Republican a lot like Mitt Romney, and a Populist demagogue with pretty insane Fascist tendencies.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/22/21 02:08 PM
Politics wise, I take the issues one at a time and make up my mind where I stand on them by myself. Perhaps I'm more conservative than liberal or maybe the other way around depending the issue. Most issues don't bother me much, in other words I don't get all hot and bothered by them.

Now it's easy to look back at something in the past with future and knowing eyes. It's quite different making decisions when the event happened with no knowledge of the future. 2016 was that way. But the fact remains that both candidates chosen by both major parties were disliked and unwanted by a majority of Americans. Just because one party likes a candidate or thinks their candidate is the best since sex and peanut butter, doesn't mean the majority of Americans think the same. They don't. I realize that and I don't go around condemning them for having different points of view.

I also have no need to go around defending and making excuses for the candidates or reasons why they lost. I let the numbers tell me that. I think personality decided the last two election more than anything else. Then there is a long string of election decided via charisma. You'd be surprised about the number of folks who don't know where the candidates stand on certain issues unless those issue effect them personally. I'd throw in likability as another factor in deciding elections.

With the lone exception of 2016, the candidate that was like more as a person regardless of what one thought or viewed their policies or stances on the issues won since 1976 when this question was first asked. But in 2016 Hillary was liked by just 2 points more of all Americans than Trump was, 38-36. which showed when Hillary won the popular vote. The lack of both being unliked by America as a whole also shown when 9 million voters decided to vote against both, 6% of all of those who voted, 12% of all independents who voted. Who knows how many potential voters said to Hades with it and stayed home because they disliked and didn't want neither one?

2020 was different, Biden was well liked as a person, Trump still wasn't, Biden won. Obama was well liked as a person, he won twice. so too was G.W. Bush liked as a person, as was Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan. all won twice.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/22/21 03:53 PM
So generally speaking you vote for who you like best. I vote entirely on the issues and for who best represents my views. That includes partisan stances on the various issues. Third party candidates are nothing more than a vanity vote in my view as I tend to want to advance my own agenda (social democracy) and a vote for them is a vote cast into the void.

Healthcare, education, living wages. All at least partially supported by the blue team, all opposed by the red team. Hence...blue team gets my vote. I'm not a team member, not even a fan, I don't have to be, I'm just a left leaning independent with an eye towards the future.

I don't want to "take my country back"

I want to take it forward.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/22/21 11:27 PM
Both candidates were disliked in 2016. I agree. But one candidate was disliked because of a lot of nonsense made up about her over the years by the opposing Party, while the other candidate was disliked because of things he actually said and did. One was well qualified, having served as a Senator and Secretary of State. The other was totally incompetent, claiming to be a great businessman but he bankrupted two casinos and most of his business ventures failed at the expense of other people.

The real problem was not so much with the candidates, but with the judgement of the voters. They could not tell good from evil, right from wrong, competence from incompetence.

Looks like Hillary's biggest defect was in being female: She couldn't be aggressive, because a lot of people thought that was improper for a lady. She couldn't be non-aggressive, because a lot of people thought that showed weakness. Often the very same people!
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/23/21 01:58 PM
I don't think it was the fact Hillary was a woman as to the reason she lost. It had more to do with her coming across as an elitist, aloof, a know it all who practiced a do what I say and not as I do attitude. In plain English, she looked really fake and non-sincere. Trump on the other hand, having a personality very few liked outside of his avid supporters came across an anomaly no one had ever seen before running for the presidency being so obnoxious and in your face. But no one knew how Trump would govern, everyone knew exactly how Hillary would. It was time to throw the dice and go with the unknown over the known. No more politics as usual so to speak.

Hillary caused her own defeat by ceding the campaign trail to Trump. The media coverage was one sided, Trump out there calling into morning shows everyday, saying outrageous things getting top billing, the top story on every news show. Hillary basically hide outside of going on shows that were 100% behind her like the View.

It's is impossible to get any Hillary supporter to admit she caused her own defeat with her very inept campaign strategy along with many other things. There's always a ton of excuses. I suppose that is normal.

As for voting, I don't think I have a political agenda. I just want competent, able leadership. Leadership I'm comfortable with and think is good for the country as a whole. Not just one or the other party's base. For America as a whole which puts me at odds with those on both sides of the aisle. I liked Biden, always have ever since he was a senator. He was one always willing to work across the aisle when he could. I disliked Trump, so I voted for Biden in hopes of a return to a more saner type of leadership.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/23/21 03:46 PM
Quote:
Hillary caused her own defeat by ceding the campaign trail to Trump.


Let me point out once again that Hillary won the election by 3 Million votes.

Hillary was not defeated by the will of the people, was not defeated because she ceded anything to Trump, was not defeated because she was a woman.

Fact is she was not defeated at all.

Trump was appointed president due simply to the geographic locations of the minority of Americans who voted for him.

A fluke.

Which was not repeated, even though Biden spent the entire campaign season in his basement while Trump rallied his supporters at every opportunity. Biden ceded the campaign trail to Trump but won anyway.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/23/21 04:06 PM
Quote:
As for voting, I don't think I have a political agenda. I just want competent, able leadership. Leadership I'm comfortable with and think is good for the country as a whole.


And once again I say that your political agenda, or ideology, is what makes you comfortable with some candidates but not others.

The leadership you are comfortable with makes me cringe, and what you think is good for the country I think is terrible for the country, the
world, and for future generations. That's how ideology works.

Hillary could have provided competent able leadership. Trump did not.

Biden will provide competent able leadership, but he's not a progressive and will fall far short of achieving what needs to be done. At the end of his term there will be more cans kicked down the road than cans picked up and dealt with.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/23/21 04:31 PM
Goldammit, Greger! Can you stop with all the rational thinking for two seconds!?
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/23/21 04:36 PM
I don't come here for three word story games.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/23/21 04:40 PM
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Goldammit, Greger! Can you stop with all the rational thinking for two seconds!?


He can't stop, he is telepathologically reading my mind! I apologize to him for the messy trauma!

TAT
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/24/21 05:26 PM
Cringe if you like my friend. I was very comfortable with Eisenhower, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, Bush Jr., Obama. But not at all comfortable with Trump. As for my voting record, 1968 when one had to be 21 to vote, Nixon, 1972, Nixon, 1976 & 1980 Carter, 1984 Reagan, 1988 Bush Sr., 1992 & 96, Perot, 00 & 04 Bush Jr. 08 McCain, 12 & 16 Johnson, 20 Biden.

I don't know what that says about my political ideology or agenda. I suppose you'll tell me. Now I was too young to remember Truman, born right after WWII so I didn't include him. I'm also comfortable so far with Biden.

I remembered Nixon as IKE's VP and had a very positive impression of him. Jimmy Carter was one excellent governor and I expected him to continue that excellence as president. Reagan, I like the guy and times were good. Bush Sr. a Reagan third term, at least that was the hope.

Perot, I got to know him in 1969 when I was in Laos when he flew into Vientiane with a 707 full of Christmas presents for our POW's held in Hanoi. That is another story for another time. I was all for reducing the debt and still am.

Bush Jr. A home boy, I just plain didn't like Gore, he was a statue with no personality, charisma. He rubbed me the wrong way. Same for John Kerry. McCain, a comrade in arms, a POW, a maverick who was willing to defy the Republican Party when he thought they were wrong. Good man.

Johnson, more or less a protest vote. In 2012 I had lost faith in Obama and didn't trust Romney. I certainly didn't like how Romney changed his stripes from a liberal northeastern Republican to portraying himself as a conservative. That didn't fit. Biden, a return to adult leadership.

There you have it. Now feel free to tell me what all of that says about my agenda and ideology. Oh, From 1968 through 2002, I pretty much voted straight Democratic at the state and lower levels. The general election didn't mean much, office holders were decided in the democratic primary back then. From 2002 on, it's been mostly Republican at the federal level with the exception of my Democratic congressman and a vote for Michelle Nunn for senator. Locally, county commissioner, sheriff etc. a very mixed bag of both.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/24/21 05:28 PM
If Trump does run again in 2024, he may win the GOP nomination, but get his butt kicked big time in the general. Independents still don't like him. That word again, like. Trump may be a gift to the democratic party that keeps right on giving.

Romney: Trump will win 2024 GOP nomination if he runs

https://www.yahoo.com/news/romney-trump-win-2024-gop-073050987.html
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/24/21 07:29 PM
Trump has a huge backlog of law suits to bumble through and lose. I believe that he is going to get sued under section 3 of the 14th amendment as well as a pile of other stuff. I, basically, don't think he will be able to run again after they throw the book at him.

I fully expect several will make a run at this one. I also agree that its unlikely that he would win even if he did run. I am also not convinced that they will gain back the congress in 2022 mid terms (if the Democrats don't run a bunch of extremists)
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/24/21 10:42 PM
Quote:
Trump may be a gift to the democratic party that keeps right on giving.


I'm pretty sure you're right about that. We're gonna hafta wait and see though, dems tend to lose even when they're dealt a winning hand.

I don't think Trump will actually run again, but he WILL continue to fund raise as the presumptive Republican nominee for 2024 and the rubes will continue to throw money at him.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/25/21 12:58 AM
Even if he can't win or even run in 2024, it looks like he will back primary challenges against Republicans. That would get extremist nutjobs running against Democrats in the general election. That means a lot of Democratic gains in all the races. A few of his nutjobs will win seats here and there. That just makes things more interesting.,
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/25/21 03:05 AM
Who decides or has the power to invoke Section 3 of the 14th amendment? I thought someone must be convicted first of sedition and insurrection. I read the following and I'm still confused. first it states the courts and then goes on to where this leaves me wondering and confused.

Here's a portion, with the rest in the link.

The Key Questions

The first question under Section 3 is who decides whether someone is ineligible. The answer is that a court must determine if someone outside of Congress is subject to the disability. This point was established in cases between 1868 and 1872, in which men who were accused of being ineligible contested that claim in court with full due process of law. In this respect, Section 3 is different from a disqualification from federal office imposed as a sentence for an impeachment conviction. A disqualification sentence from the Senate is final and not, for all intents and purposes, subject to judicial review.

By contrast, Congress cannot simply declare an official outside of that body ineligible under Section 3 without the concurrence of the courts. To hold otherwise would allow simple majorities in Congress to oust federal and state officials without judicial scrutiny and would subvert long-established constitutional principles, such as life tenure for federal judges and the limits of the impeachment process. At most, Congress can exercise its Section 5 enforcement authority under the 14th Amendment to express its considered opinion that certain individuals are ineligible, with the expectation that the courts will accept that opinion under the “congruence and proportionality” standard articulated by the Supreme Court’s decision in City of Boerne v. Flores—assuming that City of Boerne even applies to the enforcement of Section 3.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/14th-amendments-disqualification-provision-and-events-jan-6

If there are those here that speak lawyerese, all I want to know does Trump have to be convicted first in a court of law? As conviction in an impeachment trial would do, but he was acquitted. Without speaking or understanding lawyerese, I'm no better off now than before I found this article. I still assume Trump would have to be convicted first, someplace, somehow. But you know what they say about assumptions.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/25/21 07:24 PM
That is, exactly, why Mitch is fighting Trump as he doesn't think Trump crazies can win and the Republicans will lose.

The problem is, naturally, the Democrats. They are already starting to battle each other and Biden hasn't even been able to get all his people through the senate. Its almost as if the Dems can't stand to not be up to Republican so they are starting internal battles as well.

Now throw in the simple fact, so far, that those house members investigating the 1/6 riots have yet to mention that, basically, NOBODY was in charge when the riots occurred. I have now wasted even more hours watching that spectacle of Democratic incompetence and, still, not one of the house folks have asked, even once, who the hell was in charge! Its kinda sad. Everybody I have watch be questioned, so far, are loyal civil servants and its pretty obvious that they do what they are told but, in that instance, apparently, there was nobody to tell them what to do so they floundered. This is, in my mind, a really bad thing to watch and does not really instill a whole lot of faith in the current Democratic ability to rule. I watch for between 1.5 and 2 hours and then move on. I just keep on hoping that somebody would ask, right out loud; "Who the hell was in charge?"
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/25/21 10:34 PM
I don't waste any of my time watching that stuff. It's all political theater which can be boiled down to a single headline by morning.

No point gettin' riled up over it, partner. When I start feeling my blood beginning to boil at the stupidity of it all I go watch Li Ziqui on Youtube...

Or some porn.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/25/21 11:03 PM
Usually when a party is out of power, they unite to regain power. Once in power, they split into factions as each faction wants to push their own little agenda over everyone else's. That not uncommon.

Using this history as a guide, it's why I think given six months to a year from now, the GOP will be a united party. The Trump faction will join all others for the 2022 midterms showing a united front.

But as I learned, when it comes to Trump, historical standards don't apply. Yes, you'll end up with progressives battling the more moderate faction within the Democratic Party. It's always worked that way when the democrats held power.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/26/21 11:23 AM
Originally Posted By: Greger
No point gettin' riled up over it, partner. When I start feeling my blood beginning to boil at the stupidity of it all I go watch Li Ziqui on Youtube...

I may never watch Martha Stewart again...
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/27/21 03:02 PM
Most folks want instant gratification, but at times it best to let things run their course as in the end, that gratification is be even greater. This gal is taking her time and doing it right.

Georgia prosecutor investigating Trump call urges patience

https://news.yahoo.com/georgia-prosecuto...mp;uh_test=1_04
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/27/21 03:56 PM
Yes, be very patient. Because this investigation, like all the others, will prove fruitless.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/27/21 05:59 PM
You have a lot more faith than I! The Dems to continue to prove they are up to screwing up. I think it may have something about their inability to take advantage of Republican messes as they don't feel its fair to them kindly Republicans? Then, again, perhaps its their competitive nature and their fear that the Republicans may be more screwed up than they are?
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/28/21 09:20 AM
The interesting thing about the 14th Amendment, Section 3, is that Trump does NOT have to be convicted to be ineligible. All they have to do is convict ANY of that mob of insurrection. Trump "gave aid or comfort" to them when he said "they were special people and he loved them" after the attack. So even if only the a-hole who killed the Capital Police officer is convicted for insurrection, Trump is banned from office.

But of course, countless tweets and statements by Trump make it his insurrection more than anybody. Just like being named as unindicted coconspirator #1 in Cohen's trial says he is as guilty as Cohen.

Somebody in the legal pundit-sphere pointed out a huge liability for Bannon: By accepting Trump's pardon he has to admit guilt. (recent Supreme Court decision) So when he gets sued in civil court, he's already admitted he did it!

All of these things take time, and AG Garland has not even been sworn in yet. We need to be patient,
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/28/21 05:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Greger
Yes, be very patient. Because this investigation, like all the others, will prove fruitless.

Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 02/28/21 08:09 PM
I think, under section 3 he has to get sued and convicted to prove the fact for this to kick in. I have, however, no doubt that will happen.

Everybody that Trump has given pardon to must now agree to give evidence. No more constitutional rights they take the pardon they are now fair game - ALL of them!
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/01/21 06:00 PM
Trump isn't going to run again so the point is moot.

He's only in it for the money and he doesn't need to be elected to fundraise. He will rule the MAGAverse from Maralago.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/01/21 07:29 PM
I suspect you might be right about his not running. His own sister said that months ago. The good news is that Trump supporters are starting to abandon that fold. Still, the man lives in his own reality and, in that reality, he just might run to prove some kind of point?
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/03/21 09:45 AM
Hopefully he leads a whole bunch of folks down his garden path to nowhere, for a long time before it all fizzles out. He still could decide to depart the country if thing get too hot for him. Federal agents can arrest him any time in Florida. Only states need extradition to get fled felons shipped back.

Georgia seems to be proceeding briskly with a grand jury investigating the election fraud stuff. Raffensperger and Governor Kemp may want to refuse to get involved so they don't get dragged into it.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/03/21 05:55 PM
I keep getting sucked into watching the 'investigation' into the capital riot. They just keep saying secretary of defense (appointed) and the Secretary of the Army for making sure the response was not immediate which would have been normal. So, two Trumpies made sure that nobody seriously interrupted the capital riot. They also seem to not be able to get either one of those to testify.

One has to wonder. Have they fled, are they refusing to testify for congress and congress is unwilling to send the master of arms out, with police, to bring them in to testify? If they do testify one can only wonder if they mention their Lord and Master. Right now, their so-called investigation has defined one simple thing - NOBODY was in charge as these two refused to allow anybody to be in charge and do their jobs!

I am, for one, really sick and tired of Democratic investigations which can't get people to testify and do nothing about it. They have the power, they can force the testimony, but they just natter on accomplishing approximately nothing.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/03/21 07:32 PM
Quote:
they just natter on accomplishing approximately nothing.


All the more reason not to get sucked into watching it.

Nothing will come of it.

Go watch LiZiqi. Put some of those drops under your tongue.

More important battles are being fought. Looks like the minimum wage hike is going to fail. Biden has been speaking to Bernie regularly and he appears to be mostly in line with progressive ideas. But it's gotta make it through the Senate to happen. This is only the first of many battles, each one designed to make Republicans look like your skinflint landlord.

In the fullness of time as it were...
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/04/21 05:29 PM
I really want one of those secretaries to say that they were following orders from Trump. THAT, I think, might seal the coffin.

I don't put them black, seriously bad tasting, drops directly on my tongue!
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/05/21 01:22 PM
Ever hear of Reagan Democrats, it seems we may now have Biden Republicans.

The Rise of the Biden Republicans

The pollster who identified “Reagan Democrats” in the 1980s sees the emergence of a mirror image voting bloc. And it spells trouble for a GOP dominated by Trump.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2...reenberg-473330

The author seems to think this is top to bottom, Biden Republicans voting straight party ticket. I'm not so sure about that looking at the 2020 election results. Where Trump received 46.9% of the total national vote for president whereas Republican congressional candidates received 48.1% of the total congressional vote.

In 2020 a lot of folks vote Biden for president, then Republican down ballot which enabled the GOP to pick up 13 house seats, 2 state legislatures and a governorship.

Exit polls show 95% of Republicans voted for Trump and the same percentage for Republican congressional candidates. They also show 94% of democrats voted for Biden, 95% for Democratic congressional candidates. So what we have are those who identify themselves and affiliate themselves with the two major parties basically voting a straight party ticket.

This means independents are the ones who voted for Biden, then switched to vote for Republicans down ballot. So perhaps the author is right. 37% of those who voted in 2020 were Democrats, 35% were Republican, 26% Independents. It was Independents that split their tickets, not Republicans.

One other interesting note, Party affiliation in the post 6 Jan 2021 D.C. riot. on election day, Nov 2020 30% identified themselves as Republicans, 31% as democrats, 38% as independents. Today or as 18 Feb 2021, 26% identify as Republicans, 32% as Democrats, 41% as independents. Those Republicans who don't like the GOP being the party of Trump aren't flocking to the Democratic Party, they're becoming independents which I don't think will effect their down ballot voting habits. Democrats have grown by a single point, Republicans dropped 4 points, independents rose 3 points.

Whether this site or another, Democrats were crowing about Republicans becoming Democrats in the wake of 6 Jan 2021, I had said that wasn't so, I think the above numbers prove that.
Posted By: jgw Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/05/21 08:00 PM
How about just plain Democratic Conservatives? Then they could deal with the Democratic Socialists and we can all watch that one?

I think they are trying to paint them as Democratic moderates but they would be, I think, a bit more than that?
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/06/21 04:05 PM
More interesting news from Georgia. On the legal front, not the political.

Trump election fraud investigation in Georgia enters new phase with grand jury set to be seated

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/politics/trump-georgia-grand-jury/index.html
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/06/21 11:28 PM
I read today that Georgia DA brought in the lawyer who wrote the textbook on RICO prosecutions at the state level. Those require more than one criminal act and an organization attempting to use corruption of government officials to further their crimes. Soliciting election interference and lying to government officials will do. Sound familiar?

RICO prosecutions seldom fail, and they have the advantage of sweeping up entire criminal organizations (and often their corrupt lawyers), and confiscating all their ill-gotten gains. I think a Trump organization RICO prosecution could include Rudy Giuliani and even Lindsey Graham, because they both participated in illegal attempts to interfere with the Georgia election results.
Posted By: perotista Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/07/21 02:19 AM
Willis did say that her investigation will lead where it leads, past Trump which probably includes Giuliani and Graham and a few others. That her investigation isn't only about Trump, but includes anyone who might have tried to influence or change the election results in Georgia illegally.

There may be more as Willis will be looking into the resignation of the U.S. attorney for Northern Georgia sudden resignation as Trump called him a Never Trumper. Possible threats and coercion Trump to force him to resign.
Posted By: pdx rick Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/07/21 03:31 AM
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
...Georgia DA brought in the lawyer who wrote the textbook on RICO prosecutions at the state level...

...and RICO was his name-O. smile

#LockFatboyTrumpUp

laugh
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/08/21 02:18 PM
Quote:
...her investigation will lead where it leads, past Trump which probably includes Giuliani and Graham and a few others. That her investigation isn't only about Trump, but includes anyone who might have tried to influence or change the election results in Georgia illegally.


And I will say the same thing about this investigation that I have said about all the others...Nothing will come of it.

So far I've been right about all of them. I don't look for this one to be any different.
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/08/21 07:52 PM
Quote:
So far I've been right about all of them


It's a little early to brag about being right. Garland is not even confirmed yet! This is like all the online posts and tweets claiming Biden is a failure after 44 days in office.

We know there were many crimes committed. AGs can't just ignore those. They have an obligation to investigate, call Grand Juries, indict, etc. Besides, why wouldn't a Democratic administration prosecute Republican crimes. Why wouldn't New York State try to collect some very hefty tax fraud claims?
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/08/21 08:44 PM
Quote:
We know there were many crimes committed.


If crimes were committed they were "white collar crimes".

Generally subject to fines and penalties when they occur among the 1%.

Trump is gonna skate. Take it to the bank.

It's bad form to arrest your political enemies.
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/09/21 01:01 AM
Trump will skate. He’ll be dead before any of the suits against him are resolved.

Others (you know: little people) will pay the price.

Same as it ever was.
Posted By: rporter314 Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/09/21 04:57 AM
Originally Posted By: Talking Heads
Same as it ever was, Same as it ever was

Despite the fact the quote is not relevant to the substance, it is appropriate.

I also suspect Mr Trump will never be convicted of any crimes even though it would be clear he had committed numerous crimes. I do not believe an objective impartial jury could ever be installed. It only takes a very small number of jurors to acquit on purely political reasons for jury nullification to be successful.

Originally Posted By: Talking Heads
And you may ask yourself, "Well... how did I get here?"
I don't have an answer as all I can say is ... Once in a Lifetime
Posted By: pondering_it_all Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/09/21 09:16 PM
Quote:
jury nullification


Certainly quite likely in some of the cases. But in every jury in Trump's many trials? I doubt it. Might be a good strategy for prosecutors to file as many separate indictments as possible, so if only one out of ten juries are fair, he still gets convicted of something.

There is also the long term financial benefit for being a juror that convicts Trump. Nobody is going to want to buy a book that ends with jury nullification. But a lot of people would buy the book that tells the inside story of Trump's downfall. Villain finally punished = good plot.
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/09/21 09:47 PM
Quote:
in every jury in Trump's many trials?


There won't be juries involved. Just lawyers and judges shuffling papers, fines will be levied. penalties assessed, checks will change hands along with envelopes of cash.

Same as it ever was.

Politically it would be a bad idea for Biden's AG to pursue Trump's prosecution. In fact, any effort to prosecute him will be spun as political and used against Democrats in 2022 and beyond...

It's not worth the risk. Once he's out of the spotlight for a while his influence will wane, the desire for political revenge will wane, and the reasons for prosecuting him for his perceived crimes will disappear.
Posted By: Irked Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/10/21 02:06 AM
The crimes are not perceived beyond the notion of “perceived as part of perceiving reality”. However, your point is taken: There is severe risk in the US Justice Department pursuing criminal charges against FUG. Politically, it’s far better to let state AGs go after Individual 1.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/10/21 03:05 PM
The Georgia DA is following the lead of the NYC DA by bringing in the expert who wrote the book on prosecution of state racketeering crime, that appears to be much more broadly defined in Georgia. FUG should have consulted a country lawyer before trying to corrupt the Georgia election results. Maybe he checked with Rudy!

TAT
Posted By: Greger Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/11/21 02:59 AM
Quote:
Politically, it’s far better to let state AGs go after Individual 1.


Better, yes, but it will still be perceived as a political hit.

He's basically exiled to Maralago and surrounded by armed guards. He may die before ever leaving the island. He is permanently banned from Twitter. He is no longer POTUS and will soon be politically irrelevant.

That's good enough for me.
Posted By: TatumAH Re: Another reason for impeachment - 03/11/21 03:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Greger
[quote]
He may die before ever leaving the island.
That's good enough for me.


"From your lips to God's ears"

TAT
© ReaderRant