Capitol Hill Blue
Posted By: logtroll Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 01:00 PM
Just a few days ago the was a story and video of a school cop dealing with a 16 year old girl, who was acting up by refusing to quit playing on her phone during class, by tipping her over in her chair and physically throwing her across the room.

The cop was fired, but many support his "corrective" action.

Myself, I cannot imagine how such an escalation of a juvenile action of passive disobedience into physical violence against the child could be condoned as appropriate or "corrective".

Here is another course of action that is being developed around the country:

A justice program instead of a cop
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 01:23 PM
During every school period I can remember, and during long gone eras recounted by people much older than I, it is impossible to imagine a class without disruptive students (although not wanting to pay attention and looking at your phone does not seem particularly disruptive) and teachers have dealt with it. There was never a need for cops unless there was actually something criminal happening.
This insane reaction to kids being kids is just another manifestation of the desire to control on the part of those who hold some modicum of power. The school shootings, while abhorrent, do not justify putting thugs in charge (the Stones concert at Altamont should have taught everyone that lesson).
Teachers need to be better trained to deal with de-escalation (especially when the students are just being their normal pain-in-the-ass selves) and the school administration should be actively involved in helping the teachers to deal with classroom issues.
Calling in a cop with a history of excessive force drives home the point that we have created a generation (or two) of wusses and dullards.
Posted By: 2wins Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 02:21 PM
Good point.we have become lazy and unwilling to apply reason and simple compassion.
One of my boys was threatened with suspension for twisting open a soda can in the cafeteria. He was accused of making a weapon. His friend was suspended for popping a milk carton, creating a loud noise. Both of these kids are top students with no history of behavior problems yet the go to is suspension? They are 12 for God's sake.
Posted By: Scoutgal Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 02:31 PM
It seems that there is over-reaction on both sides. And we are lazy. Proper discipline when children are very young would be the key in a lot of school problems, and maybe even later as they go into the adult world. But we also must listen to the problems young children have and try and work them out in a peaceful way.
Posted By: Scoutgal Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 02:32 PM
's nice to see you here again, 2wins! ThumbsUp
Posted By: 2wins Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 02:53 PM
Thank you. It took me a while to remember my log in info. LOL
Posted By: NW Ponderer Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 05:50 PM
There is little question that this was an overreaction. But, the teacher was not to blame. He/she did the right thing, and contacted the administrator. As I understood it, the student was not just using her phone, but was talking on it, disrupting the class. She should have been disciplined.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 06:14 PM
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
There is little question that this was an overreaction. But, the teacher was not to blame. He/she did the right thing, and contacted the administrator. As I understood it, the student was not just using her phone, but was talking on it, disrupting the class. She should have been disciplined.

OMG!!! Talking on the phone! They should have convened the firing squad.
It wasn't just an overreaction. It's a system that does not work. Why couldn't the teacher deescalate the situation without tossing the girl across the room? Why do they need cops for something as banal as that? Why are the overwhelming majority of these cops white, no matter what the ethnic composition of the school? Why have similar abuses been recorded across the country and they always seem to follow the same pattern (racially and socially)?
I'm sorry there is no amount of logic that justifies having a cop deal with a student who doesn't obey the teacher, unless there is something criminal in the student's behavior.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 06:58 PM
I agree that some discipline was in order.

I like the idea of using such incidents to teach respect, process, and justice. Not enforcement through physical violence and fear.
Posted By: 2wins Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 07:01 PM
I agree. I was painting with a broad brush.
Posted By: Scoutgal Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 08:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Ezekiel
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
There is little question that this was an overreaction. But, the teacher was not to blame. He/she did the right thing, and contacted the administrator. As I understood it, the student was not just using her phone, but was talking on it, disrupting the class. She should have been disciplined.

OMG!!! Talking on the phone! They should have convened the firing squad.
It wasn't just an overreaction. It's a system that does not work. Why couldn't the teacher deescalate the situation without tossing the girl across the room? Why do they need cops for something as banal as that? Why are the overwhelming majority of these cops white, no matter what the ethnic composition of the school? Why have similar abuses been recorded across the country and they always seem to follow the same pattern (racially and socially)?
I'm sorry there is no amount of logic that justifies having a cop deal with a student who doesn't obey the teacher, unless there is something criminal in the student's behavior.


It was not the teacher who tossed the student. It was the school "peace" officer. The student was outright defiant and needed to be disciplined, but not in the way that officer handled it. Both should be punished. IMHO, since the officer had prior incidents of violence, he was rightly fired. But that girl should have some meaningful kind of discipline as well. I understand that she suffered a death of either a family member or friend, but that does not giver the right to be so disruptive and defiant. Excusing her behavior will just cause the incident to happen again. As I said before, discipline should have started at an early age(infancy). And for all teachers, school administrators and law enforcement, there should be better training in de-escalation. Learning how to peacefully nip the problem in the bud.

When I was volunteering at the high school in my neighborhood last year, the teachers required all students to label their cell phones/iPads/iPods/computer watches/pagers, put them on vibrate and deposit them in the teachers' desk drawers. The students were allowed to retrieve them on their way out of class. This made the students more likely to pay attention in class. This action was also announced to all students and parents at orientation at the beginning of each year. So no surprises. That could be one example.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 08:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Scoutgal
Originally Posted By: Ezekiel
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
There is little question that this was an overreaction. But, the teacher was not to blame. He/she did the right thing, and contacted the administrator. As I understood it, the student was not just using her phone, but was talking on it, disrupting the class. She should have been disciplined.

OMG!!! Talking on the phone! They should have convened the firing squad.
It wasn't just an overreaction. It's a system that does not work. Why couldn't the teacher deescalate the situation without tossing the girl across the room? Why do they need cops for something as banal as that? Why are the overwhelming majority of these cops white, no matter what the ethnic composition of the school? Why have similar abuses been recorded across the country and they always seem to follow the same pattern (racially and socially)?
I'm sorry there is no amount of logic that justifies having a cop deal with a student who doesn't obey the teacher, unless there is something criminal in the student's behavior.


It was not the teacher who tossed the student. It was the school "peace" officer. The student was outright defiant and needed to be disciplined, but not in the way that officer handled it. Both should be punished. IMHO, since the officer had prior incidents of violence, he was rightly fired. But that girl should have some meaningful kind of discipline as well. I understand that she suffered a death of either a family member or friend, but that does not giver the right to be so disruptive and defiant. Excusing her behavior will just cause the incident to happen again. As I said before, discipline should have started at an early age(infancy). And for all teachers, school administrators and law enforcement, there should be better training in de-escalation. Learning how to peacefully nip the problem in the bud.

When I was volunteering at the high school in my neighborhood last year, the teachers required all students to label their cell phones/iPads/iPods/computer watches/pagers, put them on vibrate and deposit them in the teachers' desk drawers. The students were allowed to retrieve them on their way out of class. This made the students more likely to pay attention in class. This action was also announced to all students and parents at orientation at the beginning of each year. So no surprises. That could be one example.


I know it was the cop. Never said is was the teacher. The teacher called the cop who tossed the student. THAT WAS STUPID. That only escalates things.
As far as what she did: most teenagers do similar things. She is not going to school to be disciplined. And if she can't get along with others there are other ways of dealing with it: 1) warning 2) suspension and if all else fails 3) expulsion.
There are rules in all public places because it isn't just about "you", i.e. you're not alone.
My point is and remains: there is no need to call a cop for such a banal and common occurrence. Teachers have dealt with disruptive students for centuries, they should be trained to deal with it.
And if the student does not want to cooperate, he/she should not be allowed to attend classes.
Calling a cop for minor incidents simply reinforces the "police state" mentality that has taken hold of this country. It is wrong and the teacher is as much to blame as the cop. I don't care if he "followed the rules", there is (or should be) a modicum of common sense when evaluating the situation.
I know that my reaction, were she my daughter, would be fury!
I taught for several years, and even though that is not my primary occupation, even a DUMMY like me learned quickly how to de-escalate heated situations.
Posted By: NW Ponderer Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 09:16 PM
Okay, let me clarify the situation somewhat. The teacher did not call the cop. THAT is why I say the teacher did the right thing. The teacher tried to get the disruptive student to put the phone away, and the girl went on being an ass. Teacher asked her to leave the room, girl refused. Teacher contacted administrator, (assistant vice principal I think) asked her to come into the hallway, girl refused. Administrator contacted the officer.

Also, officer did not have a "reputation" for violence. The two complaints were from his rookie year 8 years earlier, and not substantiated, according to some sources (the Department has not confirmed).

I agree that having cops in schools can, and does, change the dynamics of the schools, and leads to escalations in enforcement. This is something that should have been handled "after class" (depending on how disruptive she was being). Her refusal to stop being an ass is what led to the confrontation. But, she could have been removed after school.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 09:26 PM
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Okay, let me clarify the situation somewhat. The teacher did not call the cop. THAT is why I say the teacher did the right thing. The teacher tried to get the disruptive student to put the phone away, and the girl went on being an ass. Teacher asked her to leave the room, girl refused. Teacher contacted administrator, (assistant vice principal I think) asked her to come into the hallway, girl refused. Administrator contacted the officer.

Also, officer did not have a "reputation" for violence. The two complaints were from his rookie year 8 years earlier, and not substantiated, according to some sources (the Department has not confirmed).

I agree that having cops in schools can, and does, change the dynamics of the schools, and leads to escalations in enforcement. This is something that should have been handled "after class" (depending on how disruptive she was being). Her refusal to stop being an ass is what led to the confrontation. But, she could have been removed after school.


Does it really matter who called the cop? The point is it still should have been handled differently and without the intervention of law enforcement.
The students called him officer "slam" - gee I wonder why?
As far as her being an ass, to my knowledge that is not a criminal offense. If it were half the country would be in jail.

HuffPo

And from eyewitness accounts the teacher and the administrator stood there and did nothing as she was being assaulted. They share the blame, yes indeed.



Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 09:31 PM
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Also, officer did not have a "reputation" for violence. The two complaints were from his rookie year 8 years earlier, and not substantiated, according to some sources (the Department has not confirmed).


Oh, like Michael Brown and Eric Garner, etc. etc. etc.
Like the cop who assaulted James Blake.
The list goes on. I find very little credible in cops talking about other cops.
And the second instance, if I'm not mistaken, has not been judged yet.
Does it not strike you as odd that a 250 pound man needs to attack a defenseless teenage girl in that fashion?
Posted By: Scoutgal Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 10/31/15 09:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Ezekiel
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Okay, let me clarify the situation somewhat. The teacher did not call the cop. THAT is why I say the teacher did the right thing. The teacher tried to get the disruptive student to put the phone away, and the girl went on being an ass. Teacher asked her to leave the room, girl refused. Teacher contacted administrator, (assistant vice principal I think) asked her to come into the hallway, girl refused. Administrator contacted the officer.

Also, officer did not have a "reputation" for violence. The two complaints were from his rookie year 8 years earlier, and not substantiated, according to some sources (the Department has not confirmed).

I agree that having cops in schools can, and does, change the dynamics of the schools, and leads to escalations in enforcement. This is something that should have been handled "after class" (depending on how disruptive she was being). Her refusal to stop being an ass is what led to the confrontation. But, she could have been removed after school.


Does it really matter who called the cop? The point is it still should have been handled differently and without the intervention of law enforcement.
The students called him officer "slam" - gee I wonder why?
As far as her being an ass, to my knowledge that is not a criminal offense. If it were half the country would be in jail.

HuffPo


School law enforcement should only handle violent situations. Student-teacher violence, student student violence strangers coming onto campus, disaster emergencies, illegal activity and similar situations. Student discipline(and yes, students sometimes need discipline-I was also a teacher) should be handled only by teachers administrators and parents. There still needs to be better training and rulkes in place for handling situations like this.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/01/15 12:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Scoutgal
Originally Posted By: Ezekiel
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Okay, let me clarify the situation somewhat. The teacher did not call the cop. THAT is why I say the teacher did the right thing. The teacher tried to get the disruptive student to put the phone away, and the girl went on being an ass. Teacher asked her to leave the room, girl refused. Teacher contacted administrator, (assistant vice principal I think) asked her to come into the hallway, girl refused. Administrator contacted the officer.

Also, officer did not have a "reputation" for violence. The two complaints were from his rookie year 8 years earlier, and not substantiated, according to some sources (the Department has not confirmed).

I agree that having cops in schools can, and does, change the dynamics of the schools, and leads to escalations in enforcement. This is something that should have been handled "after class" (depending on how disruptive she was being). Her refusal to stop being an ass is what led to the confrontation. But, she could have been removed after school.


Does it really matter who called the cop? The point is it still should have been handled differently and without the intervention of law enforcement.
The students called him officer "slam" - gee I wonder why?
As far as her being an ass, to my knowledge that is not a criminal offense. If it were half the country would be in jail.

HuffPo


School law enforcement should only handle violent situations. Student-teacher violence, student student violence strangers coming onto campus, disaster emergencies, illegal activity and similar situations. Student discipline(and yes, students sometimes need discipline-I was also a teacher) should be handled only by teachers administrators and parents. There still needs to be better training and rulkes in place for handling situations like this.

Law enforcement should only be involved if there is criminal activity.
Discipline is best left to the parents.
I am fed up with this paramilitary horseshyte so ubiquitous in this country. The stuff of impotent phoney brave.
Posted By: NW Ponderer Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/01/15 05:25 AM
I didn't disagree with the assessment that this should have been handled as discipline, not involving law enforcement. I am just not willing to condemn anyone based upon group perception, and that includes cops. Won't play that game.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/01/15 10:09 AM
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I didn't disagree with the assessment that this should have been handled as discipline, not involving law enforcement. I am just not willing to condemn anyone based upon group perception, and that includes cops. Won't play that game.


Nor do I. I condemned him based on evidence. Apparently his boss agreed that the evidence was overwhelming against his actions.
My assessment is directed at a system not a person.
Posted By: Scoutgal Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/01/15 02:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Ezekiel
Originally Posted By: Scoutgal
Originally Posted By: Ezekiel
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Okay, let me clarify the situation somewhat. The teacher did not call the cop. THAT is why I say the teacher did the right thing. The teacher tried to get the disruptive student to put the phone away, and the girl went on being an ass. Teacher asked her to leave the room, girl refused. Teacher contacted administrator, (assistant vice principal I think) asked her to come into the hallway, girl refused. Administrator contacted the officer.

Also, officer did not have a "reputation" for violence. The two complaints were from his rookie year 8 years earlier, and not substantiated, according to some sources (the Department has not confirmed).

I agree that having cops in schools can, and does, change the dynamics of the schools, and leads to escalations in enforcement. This is something that should have been handled "after class" (depending on how disruptive she was being). Her refusal to stop being an ass is what led to the confrontation. But, she could have been removed after school.


Does it really matter who called the cop? The point is it still should have been handled differently and without the intervention of law enforcement.
The students called him officer "slam" - gee I wonder why?
As far as her being an ass, to my knowledge that is not a criminal offense. If it were half the country would be in jail.

HuffPo


School law enforcement should only handle violent situations. Student-teacher violence, student student violence strangers coming onto campus, disaster emergencies, illegal activity and similar situations. Student discipline(and yes, students sometimes need discipline-I was also a teacher) should be handled only by teachers administrators and parents. There still needs to be better training and rulkes in place for handling situations like this.

Law enforcement should only be involved if there is criminal activity.
Discipline is best left to the parents.
I am fed up with this paramilitary horseshyte so ubiquitous in this country. The stuff of impotent phoney brave.


This is exactly what I said. in my post here.
Posted By: logtroll Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/01/15 02:33 PM
Originally Posted By: logtroll

Nobody has commented on the "justice program" described in the link (which is the reason for the topic title). It is a strategy that goes well outside of the authority and discipline mindset.
Posted By: NW Ponderer Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/01/15 03:21 PM
I completely agree, logt. That is how discipline should be handled. Few Districts, however, are willing to provide the kind of resources that it requires.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/01/15 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: logtroll

Nobody has commented on the "justice program" described in the link (which is the reason for the topic title). It is a strategy that goes well outside of the authority and discipline mindset.


It would be nice if it works, perhaps only time will tell. And I think NWP may be right: there probably aren't too many school districts that would be willing to invest the time and resources to truly building out such a program.
On the whole issue of cell phones versus no cell phone allowed in class, I think there are situations where a student should be reachable by others. So simply banning cell phones or keeping them in the teacher's desk may not be acceptable. Sure a classroom is a special place where all the students and the teacher need to communicate together, but let's face it: It is not the single most important thing in the world. Keeping students incommunicado for hours or whole school days is very like kidnapping.

Maybe we should recognize this fact and let students physically excuse themselves from class to answer their cellphones. Maybe we need something like a parental override for when a cell phone is switched to "in class" mode. An override could cost $10, so it would not be abused. Switching phones to "in class" mode would be done automatically by a little radio in each classroom.

Apparently this girl was in some kind of situation with foster care and the death of a family member in which talking on her cell phone (just maybe) was more important than classroom participation. If her mental state was so fragile she considered her line of communication more important than her education, then the school should have offered her a quiet room where she could talk. Certainly not something you do everyday for all students, but it should be possible to recognize and respond to special student needs.

As adults with cell phones we all make this judgement for ourselves: Most of the time we shut down our cell phones for important meetings, but under some circumstances we don't and will excuse ourselves to go answer them.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/01/15 08:40 PM
In fact:

Quote:
Not many news agencies have reported, or even wondered why she was asked to leave in the first place. As it turns out she had momentarily looked at her phone during class, and apologized for it at the time. Nor have they wondered why the phone issue, which she had already put away, escalated to an administrator and then the now fired school resource officer who had a reputation around the campus as "Officer Slam" for his tendency to throw students to the ground, assaulted her in the first place. They say she was "disruptive and disrespectful" but witnesses state that she was arguing that she'd done nothing wrong, which actually she hadn't. Before Slamster even approached the student he had another student move his desk and clear a path, then removed the Chromebook that was on her desk - so he planned from the moment he entered the room to assault her regardless of anything she did or didn't do.


Emphasis is mine.

HuffPo
Posted By: 2wins Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 02:23 PM
Wow. Thank you for that update. Interesting how the story is evolving.
Posted By: NW Ponderer Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 03:11 PM
That description of events is at odds with other witnesses' descriptions, and, given the author's use of conclusory logic and inflammatory (defamatory?) Language, I do not find it credible. That is the problem with journalism generally any more. Journalists no longer seek facts, they seek confirmation of their predilections. There is no discipline in the profession anymore, and the audience is lazy too.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 03:13 PM
Originally Posted By: 2wins
Wow. Thank you for that update. Interesting how the story is evolving.


NP smile And excuse my rudeness: Good to see you back, 2wins.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 03:20 PM
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
That description of events is at odds with other witnesses' descriptions, and, given the author's use of conclusory logic and inflammatory (defamatory?) Language, I do not find it credible. That is the problem with journalism generally any more. Journalists no longer seek facts, they seek confirmation of their predilections. There is no discipline in the profession anymore, and the audience is lazy too.


There are, always have been and always will be contradictory accounts of any event when there is more than one eyewitness. Are you sure you're not being biased with respect to your own predilection?
You weren't there. Neither was I. Neither was the person who wrote the article. All we have are second, third, fourth-hand accounts.
I agree, though, that a lot of journalism has become bastardized because of a lack of rigor in the reporting. But I tend to trust things that coincide with what I saw on the video, as opposed to some idealized version that makes one feel better.
Posted By: NW Ponderer Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 04:05 PM
You are completely wrong, Ezekiel, about what my predilections are. My interest has always been getting to "ground truth", not pursuing an agenda. Any fair reading of the Daily Kos piece cannot lead to the conclusion that the author was seeking accuracy. It appeared, and this is contextual, that the author was being directed by the student's lawyer in preparing the piece. I invite you to read it again. (The only witness interviewed was the other student arrested for interference, who is also the only source for the "officer slam" depiction - doesn't that raises red flags? What about the hundreds of students that protested the officer's firing? Might that indicate a diversity of views?)

I have never excused the officer's behavior but have tried to put it in a fair context. I've seen these events develop in real time, and it is more like dealing with a football play on the field than with the luxury of instant replay, with multiple angles and ultra-slow motion. There are many things I see there that are at odds with journalist's depictions of the situation, which make me pause. We all have our lenses, but we should allow ourselves to step back and analyze dispassionately rather than assuming. You, my friend, have made many assumptions - including about me. I invite you to challenge them.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 04:28 PM
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
You are completely wrong, Ezekiel, about what my predilections are. My interest has always been getting to "ground truth", not pursuing an agenda. Any fair reading of the Daily Kos piece cannot lead to the conclusion that the author was seeking accuracy. It appeared, and this is contextual, that the author was being directed by the student's lawyer in preparing the piece. I invite you to read it again. (The only witness interviewed was the other student arrested for interference, who is also the only source for the "officer slam" depiction - doesn't that raises red flags? What about the hundreds of students that protested the officer's firing? Might that indicate a diversity of views?)

I have never excused the officer's behavior but have tried to put it in a fair context. I've seen these events develop in real time, and it is more like dealing with a football play on the field than with the luxury of instant replay, with multiple angles and ultra-slow motion. There are many things I see there that are at odds with journalist's depictions of the situation, which make me pause. We all have our lenses, but we should allow ourselves to step back and analyze dispassionately rather than assuming. You, my friend, have made many assumptions - including about me. I invite you to challenge them.

I suggested that you may have let your predilections color your judgement. If that is not true then so be it. I, on the other hand, have had that happen to me. So it would come as no surprise that it could be the case with you.
The fact that the author of the piece takes a position is, in my opinion, much more honest than trying to make believe that one does not have an opinion. I find that to be disingenuous.
No, in fact, there have been several other students interviewed, some who actually defended the cop. But the accounts all coincide with respect to his disposition. Some thought that his being aggressive was "cool", a view that I do not share. I suggest you look at MSNBC's coverage of the story.
If you read my post you should have understood that I accept that there are a diversity of views. But, as opposed to you, I do not discard any of them off hand.
From the three different camera angles that were present during the incident, the intention of aggressive action was clear. Not sure what other proof you would think necessary.
I am NOT dispassionate, I have formed an opinion as to what happened. So have you, although you are loathe to admit it.
Every human on earth does that, so please don't try to convince me otherwise.
There IS NO EXCUSE for what he did. He deserved to be fired. The Sheriff, his superior, also thought so.
Anyone who has to deal with students and behaves in that fashion, no matter what the excuse, is not fit to do the job.
Posted By: NW Ponderer Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 04:29 PM
This is, I think, the result of a general misapplication of government resources. We, as a community, are willing to fund policing, but not education - and that includes educating the educators. Because our spending priorities are skewed, the social costs are skewed. When you only hire carpenters every problem is a nail. We need more electricians.

And we fail to see the second- and third-order effects. Cops in schools means more arrests; more arrests, more convictions; more convictions, less employment; more poverty, more crime, more law enforcement. Rinse, repeat. Dumb budgeting.

Now, reverse the cycle: more education funding, less discipline required, better outcomes; better outcomes, more education, better graduation rates; more education, better wages; better wages, less poverty; less poverty, less crime, better economy; less crime, better economy, more funds available for other priorities (and tax cuts!).
Posted By: 2wins Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 04:34 PM
I think a lot of what NW refers to is a product of the Internet. There are, however, still print journalists interested in facts. The problem with reporting on police activity has fallen largely in the lap of the agencies themselves. They are not interested in releasing information despite open records laws and it becomes a tug of war between journalists and law enforcement.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 04:38 PM
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
This is, I think, the result of a general misapplication of government resources. We, as a community, are willing to fund policing, but not education - and that includes educating the educators. Because our spending priorities are skewed, the social costs are skewed. When you only hire carpenters every problem is a nail. We need more electricians.

And we fail to see the second- and third-order effects. Cops in schools means more arrests; more arrests, more convictions; more convictions, less employment; more poverty, more crime, more law enforcement. Rinse, repeat. Dumb budgeting.

Now, reverse the cycle: more education funding, less discipline required, better outcomes; better outcomes, more education, better graduation rates; more education, better wages; better wages, less poverty; less poverty, less crime, better economy; less crime, better economy, more funds available for other priorities (and tax cuts!).


Absolutely. That was what I would have liked to say before (but failed to say), when I said that my condemnation was of the system (education, in this case) and not the person.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 04:41 PM
Originally Posted By: 2wins
I think a lot of what NW refers to is a product of the Internet. There are, however, still print journalists interested in facts. The problem with reporting on police activity has fallen largely in the lap of the agencies themselves. They are not interested in releasing information despite open records laws and it becomes a tug of war between journalists and law enforcement.


I agree, and I think that the fact that even the Sheriff was willing to admit error in this case speaks volumes. We have seen much more serious incidents involving the death of young men/women where the police have not been as willing to admit error.
Posted By: NW Ponderer Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 04:43 PM
You and I were dealing with weeds, E, instead of tending the lawn.
Posted By: Ezekiel Re: Finding alternatives to violence - 11/02/15 05:08 PM
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
You and I were dealing with weeds, E, instead of tending the lawn.


Indeed, my friend. Indeed. ThumbsUp
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