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by virtue of the type of things he says, corrupt to the bone

this actually tells me everything i need to know

you have made the fundamental logical flaw assuming everyone is the same as you i.e. sane, rational, and logical ... if i may, i would like to suggest for your inspection the concept that these folks suffer from political paranoia ... once they enter the temple of irrationality, they make no sense, but if viewed from that perspective, i think one would find everything they say not only makes sense but is expected.

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Wall Street, Politicians, Marketing execs, Hollywood execs, Publishing execs,... etc. all cut from the same immoral cloth

your brush is a lot wider and faster to the wall than mine

i only get to read about the ones who are and i suppose if that is all that is reported then one may conclude that is all they are ... since there is a finite number of such people i think i ll check their pedigree before making such generalizations

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What is needed is an educated populace. And that is much easier said than done.

I have been saying it for 45 years and since i have seen no evidence of a change ergo your statement


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without equality there is no liberty
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Originally Posted By: Lillibet
And, I agree we need to improve education. I try to talk to at least 5 kids a day about reading the founding documents, and then when I see them again, we discuss it, using real world examples. Some are, with what's going on in "X" Country, how would we use the First Amendment? Fifth? Tenth? Fourteenth? Then I give them the reading list I always carry with me, and that has been copied about 100 times this year alone.

Oh, it makes me so sad to see so much energy and desire to do good misspent in propping up a rotting piece of parchment which needs to be thrown into the garbage bin of history as soon as possible !!

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Originally Posted By: rporter314

this actually tells me everything i need to know

you have made the fundamental logical flaw assuming everyone is the same as you i.e. sane, rational, and logical ... if i may, i would like to suggest for your inspection the concept that these folks suffer from political paranoia ... once they enter the temple of irrationality, they make no sense, but if viewed from that perspective, i think one would find everything they say not only makes sense but is expected.


I don't expect them to be anything but money grubbing whores. I honestly don't think there is an agenda - except maybe the self-serving notion that by supporting whatever the status quo happens to be they will make themselves richer. And I don't think they particularly care what the status quo is...

Quote:

your brush is a lot wider and faster to the wall than mine

i only get to read about the ones who are and i suppose if that is all that is reported then one may conclude that is all they are ... since there is a finite number of such people i think i ll check their pedigree before making such generalizations


Sorry, but "if you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem".
If you profit from perpetuating a corrupt system then you are, by definition, as corrupt as the system.


"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky



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Originally Posted By: numan
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Originally Posted By: Lillibet
And, I agree we need to improve education. I try to talk to at least 5 kids a day about reading the founding documents, and then when I see them again, we discuss it, using real world examples. Some are, with what's going on in "X" Country, how would we use the First Amendment? Fifth? Tenth? Fourteenth? Then I give them the reading list I always carry with me, and that has been copied about 100 times this year alone.

Oh, it makes me so sad to see so much energy and desire to do good misspent in propping up a rotting piece of parchment which needs to be thrown into the garbage bin of history as soon as possible !!
Numan, the problem is not with the Constitution, it is with the jurisprudence that took a hard hook to the oligopoly, the plutocrats and the support of the corporatocracy at the expense of people, starting around 1880. Prior to that, the document worked better for the people it was enacted to serve.

Even in the past twenty-five years, the entirety of US jurisprudence, Constitutional and not, has gone hard line against the person in favor of the corporatocracy. Add to that, a pathologic fixation on the virtue of greed, and the whole system is ripping apart at the seams.

Don't get me wrong, there were loads of bad decisions prior to 1880, but the arc of jurisprudence was tending to the goals of the founding documents and the founding fathers.

There is also another aspect of legal decision making which concerns private interests and conflicts of interest. Judges, legislators, and administrators of agencies who operate with their own or their friends' interests over the impartial administration of law and policy has also swayed policy and law toward special interests. When law caters to special interests, it become indeterminate for practitioners and the public. Ultimately, those not benefiting from law see no need to adhere to the law. Special interests also veer into lawlessness, for their influence can shape the law to their own needs.

Today, we expect DeMint and his cohort to swing through the revolving door to collect their reward for public service. They consider it their just due. However, it used to be public servants never thought of such a thing, and even Presidents such as Jefferson and Adams dipped into their own pockets to pay for their own staffs, entertainment, and to fund state functions at the White House. Congressmen didn't take junkets paid by special interests, but paid their own way.

Perhaps the American public is growing sick enough of the present system to demand changes. Then again, perhaps not. In any event, it will take thousands with the strength of Hercules to cleanse the Augean stables, DC version.

When government is afraid of the people, there is liberty. The other way round gives us what we have now, and it's not pretty.


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Thank you for detailing at length how useless the Constitution is.

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Originally Posted By: numan
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Thank you for detailing at length how useless the Constitution is.
The Constitution, even in its decline, remains the only bulwark against totalitarianism, martial law, groundless arrest and executions.

Sure, we have the NDAA, but that's in review and heading to the Supremes. We have drones, and those too are on their way to the Supremes. We still have the remnants of habeas corpus, and cases involving the over reaching law enforcement and military are also on their way to review, and more likely to join those in the pipeline.

It is not the Constitution, but the twisting of it, along with the ridiculous misuse of what should be plain language to favor special interests or to fight against some imagined boogeyman or other.

Eventually, the pendulum will swing back, even if it takes a few generations to do so. I hope.


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Originally Posted By: numan

Thank you for detailing at length how useless the Constitution is.

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
The Constitution, even in its decline, remains the only bulwark against totalitarianism, martial law, groundless arrest and executions.

Uh...Have you looked around at your country recently ?

Originally Posted By: Lillibet

Eventually, the pendulum will swing back, even if it takes a few generations to do so. I hope.

Don't hold your breath, as long as the foundations of government are a wreck.

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Originally Posted By: numan
'
Originally Posted By: numan

Thank you for detailing at length how useless the Constitution is.

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
The Constitution, even in its decline, remains the only bulwark against totalitarianism, martial law, groundless arrest and executions.

Uh...Have you looked around at your country recently ?

Originally Posted By: Lillibet

Eventually, the pendulum will swing back, even if it takes a few generations to do so. I hope.

Don't hold your breath, as long as the foundations of government are a wreck.
I have looked around. It's been described as many things, but it just ain't pretty. I'm realistic enough not to be holding my breath either.

At the end of the day though, it is not the Constitution that is flawed. Rather, it is a government that operates without obeying it, a court system that disregards the inconvenient parts of it, and resulting in the Constitution treated as a worthless paper no longer possessing the power to cause a government to operate in fear of people, rather than the other way around.

Thirty years ago, the US was described as a nation having, in reality, fewer freedoms than in the USSR. Today, with thousands of pages of new laws, and hundreds of thousands of regulations, the situation has not improved, but has worsened.

As with most human systems, a government does operate on a swinging pendulum, and soon I hope this one will swing back to operations within the Constitution, rather than outside it.

Despite all our flaws, we in the US do have the best government for a diverse people in our Constitution. We just need to repair our large flaw of ignoring it.


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And the provisions of the Constitution are singularly ineffectual (compared even to the constitutions of the semi-civilized countries) in ameliorating this god-awful mess.

I rest my case.

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Originally Posted By: numan
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And the provisions of the Constitution are singularly ineffectual (compared even to the constitutions of the semi-civilized countries) in ameliorating this god-awful mess.

I rest my case.
Not so. It is the actions of those ignoring the Constitution that have brought the US into the present mess. There were other choices, and all would have been Constitutional in nature. Those choices were not made, and so you insult the Constitution, not those violating it for fun and profit.

After all, most Constitutions written post 1790 have incorporated much from the US version, which was also a largely borrowed job, where our source was the various Indian nations on the Eastern part of what is now the continental US.


"I am young, whole, perfect, strong, powerful, loving, harmonious, and happy." ~~~ Kato Havas
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