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numan Offline OP
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I agree with that, Ezekiel.

I find it interesting that so many people wish that Hitler had been killed by the people around him -- that breaking the law against murder would have been so good in regard to that monster!!

Yet these same people go all legalistic and ever so scrupulous over Mannning supposedly violating some self-serving, pernicious regulations by a tyrannical, unjust, murderous military regime in the United States !!!

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Numan and Ezekiel, you are both right.

As for the selection of what information should or should not be released, there needs to be a little stepping back to reality. The most egregious and pertinent first published were the matters released by Wikileaks to news organizations such as the Guardian and New York Times. There are possibly 10 times more items to be released, and all have not yet been reviewed by Wikileaks. Hundreds of thousands of documents or files were allegedly given by Manning to Wikileaks.

This release was nearly identical to what happened with the Pentagon Papers. The press there had, as press does today, First Amendment privilege to publish that which they did not obtain illegally. Receiving documents from another is not, of itself, illegal. Wikileaks, the New York Times, and the Guardian, did nothing illegal to get their hands on the documents.

Did Manning take the documents, as alleged, because of revenge? Was Manning mistreated by the military? Well, maybe. Likely. Probably. However, he also knew going in that there was Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and that he'd be subject to whatever ethos exists in a macho, manly, warrior culture. He knew that being gay in the military was not going to be easy. He knew that he'd face discrimination, and if he didn't, then he should have know, because for decades the policy of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was brought in because of discrimination, and was halted because it was unworkable. He'd know all this by watching a few movies or reading a few books. Heck, the whole culture is portrayed constantly on the TeeVee Machine.

No one connected with the case has set forth that Manning acting as a whistle blower was at all related to any discriminatory activity regarding his sexual preferences. No credible journalists have claimed his actions were related to his homosexuality. Yet, no matter what, his sexual orientation was not an apparent element of his alleged taking of documents and disclosing them, as far as can be determined from credible press accounts.

He allegedly copied huge swaths of documents, not reviewing them during the downloading process. There were hundreds of thousands of documents allegedly sent to Wikileaks, and no one is that much of a speed reader. The news organizations that did publish documents allegedly coming from Manning, didn't have time with teams of reviewers, to vet every document and therefore published only those they reviewed.

Are there more videos showing the controllers at a distant location using weapons to cut down unarmed civilians, sounding much like excited participants in a video game? Are there documentations of torture, enhanced interrogations, or other despicable acts, all of which deserve to be brought to the light of day. War crimes and misdeeds should not be hidden behind a classification of secrecy, but should be investigated to ensure the illegality doesn't repeat. At the same time, we know the government does overclassify, because it's more convenient, or is a good way to hide misdeeds that could turn the populace against various government deeds.

The American people though know little of this. They get their news from about 6 corporations, and because they don't know what they don't know, won't be looking for what they don't know they are missing. Control of the press is a hallmark of controlled societies.

Are Americans culpable in the evils which were revealed in the Wikileaks matters? Indirectly, yes. The press have done little investigating, don't delve into stories, don't expose wrongdoing, and don't report anything that can be called news any longer. News, like education, has been dumbed down into infotainment.

Are Americans as culpable as the Germans who didn't seem to want to know what the Nazi's were doing? Only to the extent that Americans don't know what they don't know, and therefore don't look for what they don't know is there to be learned. All of this War on 'Terra' is being done in our name, right deeds and wrong, but with a controlled media, constantly on he alert to never rock any big boat, we are as culpable as the Germans. All of this killing, imprisoning, torture and collateral damage is done in our name, and yet if we raise our voices, were are likely to have our own life disrupted for making the statement.


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Bradley Manning: a tale of liberty lost in America
The US does nothing to punish those guilty of war crimes or Wall Street fraud, yet demonises the whistleblower

Quote:
A formal UN investigation denounced those conditions as "cruel and inhuman". President Obama's state department spokesman, retired air force colonel PJ Crowley, resigned after publicly condemning Manning's treatment. A prison psychologist testified this week that Manning's conditions were more damaging than those found on death row, or at Guantánamo Bay....
Early in his detention, Manning recalled, "I had pretty much given up. I thought I was going to die in this eight by eight animal cage."....
The government's radical theory is that, although Manning had no intent to do so, the leaked information could have helped al-Qaida, a theory that essentially equates any disclosure of classified information – by any whistleblower, or a newspaper – with treason.
Whatever one thinks of Manning's alleged acts, he appears the classic whistleblower. This information could have been sold for substantial sums to a foreign government or a terror group. Instead he apparently knowingly risked his liberty to show them to the world because – he said when he believed he was speaking in private – he wanted to trigger "worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms".
Compare this aggressive prosecution of Manning to the Obama administration's vigorous efforts to shield Bush-era war crimes and massive Wall Street fraud from all forms of legal accountability. Not a single perpetrator of those genuine crimes has faced court under Obama, a comparison that reflects the priorities and values of US justice.
emphases added

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Originally Posted By: numan
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Bradley Manning: a tale of liberty lost in America
The US does nothing to punish those guilty of war crimes or Wall Street fraud, yet demonises the whistleblower

Quote:
A formal UN investigation denounced those conditions as "cruel and inhuman". President Obama's state department spokesman, retired air force colonel PJ Crowley, resigned after publicly condemning Manning's treatment. A prison psychologist testified this week that Manning's conditions were more damaging than those found on death row, or at Guantánamo Bay....
Early in his detention, Manning recalled, "I had pretty much given up. I thought I was going to die in this eight by eight animal cage."....
The government's radical theory is that, although Manning had no intent to do so, the leaked information could have helped al-Qaida, a theory that essentially equates any disclosure of classified information – by any whistleblower, or a newspaper – with treason.
Whatever one thinks of Manning's alleged acts, he appears the classic whistleblower. This information could have been sold for substantial sums to a foreign government or a terror group. Instead he apparently knowingly risked his liberty to show them to the world because – he said when he believed he was speaking in private – he wanted to trigger "worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms".
Compare this aggressive prosecution of Manning to the Obama administration's vigorous efforts to shield Bush-era war crimes and massive Wall Street fraud from all forms of legal accountability. Not a single perpetrator of those genuine crimes has faced court under Obama, a comparison that reflects the priorities and values of US justice.
emphases added
And your point would be??? violin

Disclaimer: Nothing more than me playing a little devil advocate, but not as "SAG" or Satan's Advocate General, nor as a JAG officer should be attributed to me in the reading my comment. Hmm


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Originally Posted By: Ardy
As I understand it (which is not so very much)
Mannings guilt or innocence rests upon whether he did in fact
release classified documents to unauthorized recipients.


I think that pretty much covers it, Ardy. I must admit though that it has been entertaining watching folks here substitute illogical, ideologically and politically motivated emotionalism for argument. The moment he turned the documents over (doing so without knowing what the bulk of them contained) to others who were not cleared to see the information in them, he made them "public". The rationalization that he was somehow being responsible in giving classified documents to organizations such as newspapers and other NGOs for review prior to further dissemination is beyond ludicrous and simply politically motivated excuse-making.

Those who wish to make a case against the US government or America in general, can do so without attempting to excuse this sad sack's actions or to elevate him to the level of selfless patriot and left-dressed saint. Funny stuff. coffee
Yours,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Originally Posted By: issodhos


I think that pretty much covers it, Ardy. I must admit though that it has been entertaining watching folks here substitute illogical, ideologically and politically motivated emotionalism for argument. The moment he turned the documents over (doing so without knowing what the bulk of them contained) to others who were not cleared to see the information in them, he made them "public". The rationalization that he was somehow being responsible in giving classified documents to organizations such as newspapers and other NGOs for review prior to further dissemination is beyond ludicrous and simply politically motivated excuse-making.

Those who wish to make a case against the US government or America in general, can do so without attempting to excuse this sad sack's actions or to elevate him to the level of selfless patriot and left-dressed saint. Funny stuff. coffee
Yours,
Issodhos


From what tailpipe did you crawl out? ROTFMOL
For someone who so ardently defends individual rights, it seems you have joined the ranks of the flag wavers.
Disappointing, Iss coffee

Last edited by Ezekiel; 12/13/12 01:08 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Ezekiel
Originally Posted By: issodhos


I think that pretty much covers it, Ardy. I must admit though that it has been entertaining watching folks here substitute illogical, ideologically and politically motivated emotionalism for argument. The moment he turned the documents over (doing so without knowing what the bulk of them contained) to others who were not cleared to see the information in them, he made them "public". The rationalization that he was somehow being responsible in giving classified documents to organizations such as newspapers and other NGOs for review prior to further dissemination is beyond ludicrous and simply politically motivated excuse-making.

Those who wish to make a case against the US government or America in general, can do so without attempting to excuse this sad sack's actions or to elevate him to the level of selfless patriot and left-dressed saint. Funny stuff. coffee
Yours,
Issodhos








From what tailpipe did you crawl out? ROTFMOL
For someone who so ardently defends individual rights, it seems you have joined the ranks of the flag wavers.
Disappointing, Iss coffee







You have previously demonstrated to my satisfaction that you have little understanding of individual rights, and you now confirm it, Ezekiel. That is okay. I was not disappointed. ;-)
Yours,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Originally Posted By: issodhos
You have previously demonstrated to my satisfaction that you have little understanding of individual rights, and you now confirm it, Ezekiel. That is okay. I was not disappointed. ;-)
Yours,
Issodhos


Ah, c'mon Iss, admit it, you are a fellow traveler, aren't you? ROTFMOL

Last edited by Ezekiel; 12/13/12 01:55 AM.

"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

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Dostoevsky



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numan Offline OP
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Really, Issodhos, don't pick on Ezekiel -- he is a scrupulous observer of individual rights compared to me, a person who regards individualism as an intellectual and moral failure.

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Originally Posted By: Ezekiel
Originally Posted By: issodhos


I think that pretty much covers it, Ardy. I must admit though that it has been entertaining watching folks here substitute illogical, ideologically and politically motivated emotionalism for argument. The moment he turned the documents over (doing so without knowing what the bulk of them contained) to others who were not cleared to see the information in them, he made them "public". The rationalization that he was somehow being responsible in giving classified documents to organizations such as newspapers and other NGOs for review prior to further dissemination is beyond ludicrous and simply politically motivated excuse-making.

Those who wish to make a case against the US government or America in general, can do so without attempting to excuse this sad sack's actions or to elevate him to the level of selfless patriot and left-dressed saint. Funny stuff. coffee
Yours,
Issodhos


From what tailpipe did you crawl out? ROTFMOL
For someone who so ardently defends individual rights, it seems you have joined the ranks of the flag wavers.
Disappointing, Iss coffee
IN fact, it's not that much about individual rights. Rather, it is about exposing criminal activity during an undeclared war upon another sovereign nation.

The issue of rights has only to do with the manner in which Manning has been kept in confinement while awaiting charges (more than nine months), and in awaiting the preliminary hearings prior to trial.

Taken together, these issues have been conflated, but are merely traveling along together in the same case.

Considering similar cases, such as the Pentagon Papers case, there are times when the best thing a patriot can do is expose wrong and hope that once revealed, the cause of the wrong will be removed from risk of repetition. Daniel Ellsburg was also subject to much hatred and opprobrium for his actions, but was eventually vindicated.

We are left with hoping the proceedings will be conducted with reasonableness, and that where there are errors on the part of the military, the government or elsewhere, they will be addressed with cool heads and that justice will be administered fairly for all.


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