Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Current Topics
A Musical Quiz
by Ken Condon - 12/01/21 07:21 AM
Winning
by perotista - 12/01/21 04:31 AM
I’ll Buy That
by Greger - 12/01/21 03:49 AM
Denialism
by Greger - 12/01/21 02:30 AM
What's for dinner?
by Greger - 11/30/21 11:09 PM
Coronavirus: The Plague of The 21st Century?
by TatumAH - 11/30/21 08:32 PM
Boundaries for Facebook
by jgw - 11/30/21 06:26 PM
RoundTable For Fall 2021
by pondering_it_all - 11/29/21 08:38 PM
Pacific Northwest Weather
by pdx rick - 11/28/21 08:59 PM
A Fungus Amungus
by logtroll - 11/28/21 01:25 PM
Republicans promise brutal revenge in 2022
by pdx rick - 11/27/21 08:45 PM
masks and vaccinations
by logtroll - 11/27/21 01:36 PM
Vigilantism - why isn’t it illegal?
by logtroll - 11/25/21 11:46 PM
"Mom, I think it's a boy."
by TatumAH - 11/25/21 04:37 AM
Gerrymandering
by perotista - 11/23/21 10:17 PM
You don't know beans! vs Killer Beans
by TatumAH - 11/23/21 08:37 PM
Moderna trying to ignore 1.5 billion dollar investment
by Jeffery J. Haas - 11/23/21 03:03 AM
Popular Topics(Views)
9,682,030 my own book page
4,779,890 We shall overcome
3,866,526 Campaign 2016
3,527,727 Trump's Trumpet
2,791,668 3 word story game
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,605
Likes: 13
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,605
Likes: 13
An interesting read

I Could Have Stopped Waterboarding Before It Happened
An exclusive account from the CIAs former top lawyer.
By JOHN RIZZO January 05, 2014


ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,642
Likes: 25
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,642
Likes: 25
I wish he had.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I wish he had.

Why? coffee


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,642
Likes: 25
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,642
Likes: 25
Because, my friend, waterboarding is torture, and a war crime, and it reduced the moral authority of the United States to slightly above that of the miscreants who engage in public beheadings. Allowing it caused hundreds of actual deaths, extended the war, made the actual process of keeping the peace significantly harder, and set a poor moral standard for the rest of the world. I know, minor considerations.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,850
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,850
there you go again, actually reading those inane posts!


"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,850
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,850
Originally Posted By: rporter314
An interesting read

I Could Have Stopped Waterboarding Before It Happened
An exclusive account from the CIAs former top lawyer.
By JOHN RIZZO January 05, 2014






Let me see if I have this right:
"my job was to provide legal advice to one of the most secretive (for good reasons) parts of the government and the men and women who led or consulted with it. But now that I'm out, I'm going to make money by violating attorney client privilege, and oh, BTW, give out props to the guy who led us into an unfounded war in Iraq cuz you never know when I might need someone powerful on my side."


"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,642
Likes: 25
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,642
Likes: 25
you are right, suckered.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,626
Likes: 55
L
veteran
Offline
veteran
L
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,626
Likes: 55
I found this to be a prime indicator of Rizzo's warped powers of logicking:
Quote:
In his memoir, however, Bush does the exact opposite: He squarely puts himself up to his neck in the creation and implementation of the most contentious counterterrorist program in the post-9/11 era when, in fact, he wasnt.
Now, thats a stand-up guy.

So GW Bush was left out of the decision-making, then after the fact lies about being in the thick of it - for what reason? To "protect" the folks who screwed up? Or was it more important to GW Bush to be viewed through the historical lens as having been in charge...

Either way, it's not an action that I would consider to be "stand-up". "Cover-up" seems a more appropriate term.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,605
Likes: 13
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,605
Likes: 13
I think there was another possibility which does incorporate "cover-up" or "standup".

I believe a case can be made which characterizes Pres Bush as a weak president, surrounded by much stronger folks, who were more adept at politics and the understanding of politics than Pres Bush.

One incident I recall is his recollection of a conversation which included Tenet. Bush demonstrates his ignorance of the subject matter and relies complete;y on Tenet's assessment. I suspect in the arena of foreign affairs this was routine.

The other component of this equation is his belief that he was in fact the "decider-in-chief".

Looking over one's shoulder through the fog of time and delusional beliefs, I find that many folks can not recollect events with any accuracy. This could just as easily be a case of the decider-in-chief believing he was in charge and simply recollecting his distorted memories of an event for which he probably did not have much information.


ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Because, my friend, waterboarding is torture, and a war crime, and it reduced the moral authority of the United States to slightly above that of the miscreants who engage in public beheadings. Allowing it caused hundreds of actual deaths, extended the war, made the actual process of keeping the peace significantly harder, and set a poor moral standard for the rest of the world. I know, minor considerations.


Hmm... interesting. Drone strikes that routinely kill innocent people throughout the region, all done with no risk to those killing remotely has somehow not reduced US "moral authority" or caused "hundreds of actual deaths"? "Shock and Awe" macho posturing, bombing, and killing did not do so as well? Atrocities committed by soldiers, pilots, and other US personnel did not reduce US "moral authority"? Abu Ghraib's abuses somehow failed to reduce US "moral authority" or cause "hundreds of actual deaths"? But, instead, you single out the waterboarding torture of a few probable bad guys from a region that is noted for torture and brutality and claim it did reduce "US moral authority" and did cause "hundreds of actual deaths"? I am doubtful that it had such an impact.

By the way, referring to maintaining a "peace" that has been elusive at best, and suggesting that the "war" has ended is, in my opinion, seriously wishful thinking.


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 35 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SuZQ2, KevFilthyANML, Risky, Gladys G. Jackson, Beach Baby
6,297 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums61
Topics17,252
Posts312,940
Members6,297
Most Online294
Dec 6th, 2017
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.4.26 Page Time: 0.011s Queries: 36 (0.004s) Memory: 3.0297 MB (Peak: 3.2531 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2021-12-01 10:03:16 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS