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Ardy Offline OP
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Up to this point I have avoided addressing the situation in Gaza.

I think it is clear that Hamas is behaving in an outrageous way
They are in fact using civilians as shields
They are in fact firing rockets with the aim of random wanton killing
So it is hard to find much sympathy for them

And I think that any nation including Israel has a right to defend itself from such outrages

That said, I have recently seen several media appearances of the Israeli ambassador to the USA. I find the arguments that he presented to be contemptible

He justifies attacking schools refugees centers and hospitals because possibly there are rockets stored there. And went on to say that United States would do the same thing

Really? Really? Really?
Let's have a look. Ok?


Can any of us imagine American leaders shelling a refugee compound and saying that was okay?

And to say it was justified because there may be some rockets there

Even though we all know that those Rockets are ineffectual

Even though we know that Israel has a pretty good defense against those rockets

Even though we know almost no Israeli civilians have been killed by these rockets.

Even though we pretty much know that no rockets were destroyed in any of the tax on UN schools. So the attacks themselves were also pointless

And then this whole charade is defended by saying the Us would do the same thing???????

Sorry but I find that extraordinarily offensive



It has been clear for some very long time that Israel has a policy retribution against civilians Where they punish the wider community for the sins of the people that are terrorists

The examples of this are so numerous as to not need citations. But just the most recent example before Gaza was the case of three kidnapped Israeli teens. Israel decided on some people that were suspects. Not convicted mind you just suspect. But maybe they have a hard time catching those people. So they bulldoze the family homes of those suspects.

Can you imagine if one of your children committed a crime and the police bulldozed your home? But wait there is more

Israelis have pretty much proved who did the killing of the Arab teams subsequently. Do you suppose their family homes were bulldozed?

Israel has recently announced that with or without Ceasefire they continue to destroy the tunnels. Which means that they could be destroying those towels without rocketing you when schools for hospitals or public markets

Does any one seriously think that this totally showings and air attacks are blowing up a lot of these rockets? or are they simply intended to me population paying the price?

If Hamas is great at building tunnels. Why do they need to store all of their rockets in hospitals and schools and homes and powerplants etc.

This sort of retribution against innocent civilians is typical of some things most brutal regimes in human history. And I refuse to excuse these barbarity just because Hamas are a bunch of assholes. And I am again offended at the suggestion that United States would behave in a similar manner as this


By the way the Israeli ambassador also was livid at the suggestion that many civilians are being killed. According to him half the people that are being killed are all terrorists. if it is true that Hamas is using civilians as shields. It just makes no logical sense that there are not civilians killed.


When you get right down to it, Israel is saying "okay, you want to use civilians as shields, we will [censored] kill The civilians". As if the civilians have some great degree of choice in all this.

As I say I am not a defender of Hamas. But it really does not justify the I TF acting like the SS. And then pretending that it is normal.

If Israel is defending itself just say what the truth is. You don't have to lie about it really to you. Bombing schools it's not destroying rockets we all know that don't we.

Hamas has a really despicable strategy I think. But the truth is they are also showing the world what Israel is like. Showing the world is sort of attitude and abuse that Israelis inflict on the Palestinian people for years and years and years.

The public relation effect of this Gaza campaign is as negative As Putins action in Ukraine. Israel is punishing gaza. But losing lots of friends and undecided observers.

Last edited by Ardy; 08/01/14 05:02 AM.

"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel
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Seems to be the rather chic thing to do on the looney left - defending Hamas. With Che gone and Arafat gone and, of course, Castro ready to check out pickigs are slim.


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Seems to be a rather chic thing to do on the wing nut Right- creating caricatured straw man Leftists to poke fun at - then believing it's reality.

Did you see the Sunday Doonesbury poking fun at Right Wing "humor"? ROTFMOL

Right Wing humor


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Oh, I thought Keyser was using satire. Shirley Yujest.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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straw farmers = limbaugh, hannity, beck, berry, steyn, savage


ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
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It was more like a straw-burning-man.... Speaking of specious arguments...

Last edited by NW Ponderer; 08/05/14 02:13 PM.

A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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You are most correct, Ardy, there are no good guys in this conflict. Both sides have the blood of innocents on their hands and have made a practice of illegal targeting. I had the same feeling when I listened to a Hamas leader completely eliding any reference to Hamas atrocities while castigating Israel during an interview. They both act as if it is just a PR campaign and that their behavior is perfectly justified. What appalls me is that the international community doesn't step in.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
... What appalls me is that the international community doesn't step in.

...or out (as in quit giving them crazy sunzabitches weapons).


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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Quote:
What appalls me is that the international community doesn't step in

I have long thought (and have not found any reasonable counter argument) that the Balfour Declaration was a direct response to European antisemitism. What this means is there was a rise in antisemitism which was palpable and people like Balfour saw an opportunity to ameliorate that rising sentiment by proposing the removal of the instigating factor i.e. Jews.

That they were a part of the same antisemitism is seen in the nature of their treatment of the newly won lands and administrations. In what has to be considered an almost willy-nilly partition of former lands in the ME by the European powers, can probably be attributed to their putative belief these folks possessed an inferior culture and religion.

The European community was the creator of this monstrosity and you would expect them to step up and try to correct their mistake? Not likely.

The only good solution evaporated in 1917 and devolved from there. There are no good solutions left. We may be left with blood feud for which there may be no imaginable number of generations to erase it.

I have proposed this probably several times in this forum. Invade Israel and impose the 2 state solution. It is the best of all the bad solutions.

Netanyahu & Abbas .... details available on request


ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
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