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You looking for an engraved invitation?

Im thinking the answer lies in labor organizing with the recent successes theyve had. Without political representation, working Americans can safely be ignored and are. Whats more, younger generations of Americans are less reactionary to organized labor. Im thinking the economic violence committed by finance with politics needs to be met with economic disruption from labor. At the end of the day, its all power really pays attention to. The massive uptick in labor demonstrations around the world before the lockdown, or the current labor strike going on in India, largest ever seen with 250 million+ participants under a neo fascist government, is the way forward.








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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
You looking for an engraved invitation?

Im thinking the answer lies in labor organizing with the recent successes theyve had. Without political representation, working Americans can safely be ignored and are. Whats more, younger generations of Americans are less reactionary to organized labor. Im thinking the economic violence committed by finance with politics needs to be met with economic disruption from labor. At the end of the day, its all power really pays attention to. The massive uptick in labor demonstrations around the world before the lockdown, or the current labor strike going on in India. Largest ever seen with 250 million+ participants under a neo fascist government.

What do you want labor to organize to do (what is the desired future condition - to use a forest management term)?

Lacking specifics (such as organizing around a particular "project"), my assumption would be that they should organize to fight some unfair imbalance of power with their employers. That's a good cause, but very general and unfocused. What's the endgame - what is the optimal balance of power between labor and management?

Or is the deeper problem that there exists an adversarial division between the two?

Is there a better model for "doing business" than the common one that is often called Capitalism?

It is the focus of our (yours and my) attention and interest wherein lies the root cause for our failure to communicate. I don't know if you have noticed, but I haven't ever said you are wrong to be fighting skirmishes in the War of the Status Quo. It's just that I'm advocating for figuring out new models for "disruption" (a popular new term for doing things in a different enough way to cause reflexive systemic change in a domino fashion). I don't want to fight endless skirmishes with no strategy for ending the war.

I've been a fan of something on the order of worker-owned co-ops for thirty years - labor and management are not divided, they are the same. Cool concept, but human nature seems to keep getting in the way of the model's success - turns out there is a spectrum of little flaws in it, ranging from criminal laziness to criminal greed. How do we solve that?

Most likely there is no solution to what ails humanity, save for extirpation. But in the words of Word of the Day:
Quote:
A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. -Edmund Burke, statesman and writer (12 Jan 1729-1797)


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Labor needs to remember it has power. It's been B.S.'ed by media and it's own leadership here and a rebalance between labor and capitol has been long over due. Our politics reflect this, IMO.

I mentioned M4A as just one example of an identified problems (commodified healthcare) having a solution. Labor is starting to understand this as an important issue. Leadership not so much but rank and file gets it. You say that with the rank and file voting for sanders and rebuking leaderships candidate endorsements in the Nevada primary.

The old Boomer war between labor and college degrees must end.
Time and 'disruption' of white collar workplaces may be what ultimately resolves this.

No need to reinvent the wheel with Co-ops. There's corridors of co-ops that have existed in Europe since WW2.

The major problem is institutional power no longer having the capacity to responds to the material conditions of its citizens. I've not been coy about this or my opinion about how it's come to this sorry state. Them needles going in the wrong directions and the economic violence evident in our decaying communities from finance capitalism is a consistent message I've maintained for years now.

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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
The major problem is institutional power no longer having the capacity to responds to the material conditions of its citizens. I've not been coy about this or my opinion about how it's come to this sorry state. Them needles going in the wrong directions and the economic violence evident in our decaying communities from finance capitalism is a consistent message I've maintained for years now.

And I haven't been shy about inquiring what your solutions might be.

Back to square one?


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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And back to the topic...

After days of additional thought (though not really focused thought), I believe that there are significant differences between Reep and Dem politics, but because of how the system works, it's hard to see much in the way of change.

Someone once said that democratic systems of government tend to be very stable, and the main reason for that stability is extreme inefficiency.


You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
I agree.

On the premise that that parties are the same, I'd say the arguments for that are based on the idea that sameness is the problem, but I think it's a really just a symptom. If they were truly the same, then how is there so much angry polarization?

Your thoughts about [unethical] people using that as a campaign tool are revealing. In addition to that, certain media business models are built around monetizing the polarization, and they have been very successful - in terms of making money. They have also been a key part of the very destructive ideology of "noble insurrection".

If there's a binary choice that folks can make about politics, it's between fighting and fixing. Fixing is a long, hard slog that may never really get anywhere (winning is not really a goal). But fighting is excellent entertainment and more fitting with human nature (or so it appears). With fighting you can win! And then lose... just ask don't ask Trump, who has always been a winner - even if he has to lie about it.

:doh:


I think at times that both parties seem the same is both get their millions, tens of millions and hundreds of millions of dollars to run their organizations and campaigns from basically the same people. Corporations, wall street firms, lobbyist, special interest groups, mega money donors etc. Neither can afford to peeved the moneyed interest off. If they do, then they may spend their millions on backing your opponent.

I think there was a time when both parties were close to being the same. I grew up under Eisenhower, back then the Republicans, conservatism, it was said that the GOP agreed with everything the Democrats were doing, only they want a bit less of the doings.

You didn't see party line votes back then, it was usually a mixture of both parties voting for and against any particular legislation. As for today's polarization, divisiveness and mega, ultra partisanship, I heard it referred to as avid sports fans rooting for their team against the other team. That folks have become mega fans of their political party. When the Phillies were good giving the Braves a hard time, they were referred to as the filthadelphia Phillies. Now the number enemy of the braves are the Washington Nasties.

It hasn't happened here, but in other cities where just being a fan of the opposing team got you beat up. That happened in Augusta, a teenager wearing a Miami Hurricane sweatshirt was beat up for wearing that sweatshirt. They're Georgia Bulldog fans down there.

Perhaps the avid fan metaphor is correct, maybe not. Regardless, each major party owes their heart and soul to these moneyed folks. Which very well can make each about the same. It certainly limits what each can and can't do. Perhaps we've been indoctrinated to view them differently. It's my party, my team vs. those evil Democrats or Republicans, those evil Phillies or Nationals. It us vs. them. although us and them are basically the same.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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Welp, a bunch of corporations are suspending all political donations or are cutting off funding to the worst of the worse.

Probably wont last as far as all political spending, but maybe moving forward theyll look beyond the politician/partys stand on corporate/wealthy taxes and regulations and look at the rest of the agenda being pushed by the recipients of their largess.


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I seen that. But don't hold your breath about these corporate, wall street firms, banking etc to look at the rest of the agenda. But they'll still support the lobbyist to get those who they cut off donation to lobby them for their vote on the stuff they want.

Then there's other ways to get your donations to them, although not directly. Donating to the RNC or to the Republican senate campaign fund or to the Republican congressional campaign fun. Then you also could form a super pac. Donating to pacs is a great way of saying you not donating to their campaign, yet making sure they get the money and that they know where the money came from.

Regardless, all these donations regardless as to who, what is just another way of buying congressmen and senators. Legal buying.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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Agreed: legal graft might be an even more apt term. Campaign finance in the US is an embarrassment.


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I have identified the problems and given proposals for solutions.

Wether you can understand simple concepts of universal basic goods and services is another subject.

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