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#334913 07/31/21 05:20 PM
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The Democrats are experiencing yet another attack of their progressive wing. This time they have decided to wreck the infrastructure thing by insisting that they have their way, in all things. Oh, and on the way, put another nail in the coffin of the Democratic party for next year.

If one is a Democrat one would think that party might have some with power to tamp that one down, and REALLY start to work on next year's election (of which the tamping would be one, probably important part). The real trick, in our political system, is to gain ownership of both the Senate and the House. If they can do that THEN they can start trying for the moon. Right now they should a plan not designed to turn off the entire voting middle. Anybody thinks they have even a slight chance, right now, for their needs, wants, and wins would be, I think, an expert in wishful thinking.

Think about it. Wouldn't be nice if the Dems understood that the whims of the progressive Dems and had the capacity to sit them down and explain that if they didn't win the Senate AND the house with more than 1 to 10 votes then whatever they wanted would be forever out of their ability to get ANYTHING done! Now think about the entire Democratic party agreeing on the basic messages of the entire party. Doesn't mean no local stuff - just a demonstration of their capacity, and their ability, to outclass the loons of the right. That would include an educational effort for some of the slower victims of Trump. The Right has been working, very hard to make sure the Dems recognize but they just can't seem to grasp the importance of what they are given, that their opponents just keep on demonstrating their capacity to lie, to cheat, to rebel, and dote of a man who has one the award as the Very Worst President and Businessman that America has ever produced, and run with it!

Unfortunately the Dems just can't seem to come together in any meaningful way. Most the the talking heads of TV think that and the Dems are losing and the Dems just keep on reinforcing that.

One can only hope but, so far, they have done a magnificent job of shooting the hell out of their own feet. They gotta start understanding they have win to succeed and fairy tales and wishful thinking just isn't gonna cut it.

jgw #334916 07/31/21 07:17 PM
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Once again you are wishing for the Democratic Party to become more like the Republicans.

Punishing members who don't toe the line.

Marginalizing dissidents.


You apparently want them to establish some sort of authoritarian stance where members walk in lockstep like the Republicans so often do. Ignoring facts.

My issue isn't with progressives...it's with the moderates like Manchin and Sinema. Apparently you have no qualms with them voting with Republicans...it's the progressives who want to pass meaningful legislation you seem to have issues with.


Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
jgw #334918 07/31/21 08:18 PM
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I certainly don't. I like both Manchin and Sinema along with Biden when he was a senator and VP. I'd vote for both of them, I voted for Biden. But then again, I'm not a progressive. Just a non-affiliated, non-partisan swing voter. I'd certainly take Manchin or Sinema over Sanders and Warren. No doubt about that.

Now everyone's political perspectives, views are different. Not everyone sees the political world like you do nor as I do. That is what makes it interesting. This is why I study independents, they're all over the place, very interesting. Republicans and Democrats are dull as all get out. One know exactly how they'll vote, no challenge there.

Winning, now that take a certain amount of the non-affiliated, swing voters. For the Republicans, they must have a good majority of independents or lose. For Democrats, they must just keep the independent vote close. They don't need to win them. Probably just not lose them by more than 5-6 points.An example of this is 2012 where Obama lost the independent vote by 3 points and yet won the popular vote by 4. Hillary lost the independent vote by 4 points, but won the popular vote by 2. Hence just keeping the independent vote close.

The latest I have on Party affiliation is 18 Jun 2021, 24% Republican, 30% Democratic, 44% independent. Now this is very dynamic. These figures are probably way out of date, yet they're the most recent.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
jgw #334919 07/31/21 09:00 PM
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It's the Despair Quotient!
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The Nazis did not have a majority in the election before Hitler was appointed Chancellor.

November 1932 German federal election

Party Votes % +/– Seats
Nazi Party 11,737,021 33.09 −4.18 196
Social Democratic Party 7,247,901 20.43 −1.15 121
Communist Party of Germany 5,980,239 16.86 +2.54 100

The problem was that the Social Democrats and the Communists refused to cooperate to keep the Nazis from seizing power.

Translated into American 2021 terms:
"The Democrats, social democrats and the rest of the Left refused to cooperate with moderates and independents in order to keep the Qanon/Trump Party from seizing power in 2022/2024."

Is this our fate?

Last edited by Jeffery J. Haas; 07/31/21 09:00 PM.

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jgw #334920 07/31/21 10:03 PM
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Thee seems to be some confusion. My basic thesis for the Democrats to win before they start running their mouths with desires, dreams, and all the rest - then have at it! If they were serious they would get it. Some, I guess, feel its more important to run their mouths rather than actually doing something.

Oh, I forgot the latest security moves of the Dens. In several places they have stopped bail after arrests if the person arrested is 'poor'. Then, because there is no legal way to hold the arrested they are turned loose. Apparently the Seattle authorities have now release 8 murderers because, after arrest, they were deemed 'poor'. Any an interesting aside it kind has the voters wondering about this particular insanity of the noisy left. Yet another clever move to make sure they don't win an electin! Well done!

Its kinda interesting - BOTH sides have clever ways to do absolutely NOTHING!

jgw #334921 07/31/21 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jgw
Thee seems to be some confusion. My basic thesis for the Democrats to win before they start running their mouths with desires, dreams, and all the rest - then have at it! If they were serious they would get it. Some, I guess, feel its more important to run their mouths rather than actually doing something.

Oh, I forgot the latest security moves of the Dens. In several places they have stopped bail after arrests if the person arrested is 'poor'. Then, because there is no legal way to hold the arrested they are turned loose. Apparently the Seattle authorities have now release 8 murderers because, after arrest, they were deemed 'poor'. Any an interesting aside it kind has the voters wondering about this particular insanity of the noisy left. Yet another clever move to make sure they don't win an electin! Well done!

Its kinda interesting - BOTH sides have clever ways to do absolutely NOTHING!

I was under the impression that bail reform of that kind only applied to misdemeanors, and that crimes like murder did not qualify.
What drove the move on bail was the fact that there was a glut of people who had already spent more time in jail than the max sentence for their misdemeanors just waiting for trial, because they couldn't afford to get bailed out.

Where did you read this?

Last edited by Jeffery J. Haas; 07/31/21 10:09 PM.

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jgw #334922 07/31/21 10:13 PM
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Interesting Jeffrey, a big difference is Germany had multi parties, we have two major ones and a bunch of third parties that don't count. Also the NAZI's didn't write Germany's election laws as Republicans and Democrats do here, today. Germany at that time was under a proportionality parliamentary system, not a two party system.

Lots of differences. Today, Democrats and Republicans expect independents to bend to their will. Neither really tries to attract independents although, independents do decide national elections, 2024 in your case.

Also you're ignoring the fact a majority of independents don't like Trump as proven in the 2018 midterms, 54-42 for Democratic congressional candidates and the 2020 presidential, 54-41 for Biden over Trump.

2022 is up for grabs, at least the House in my estimation. The Democrats should pick up 1-3 seats in the senate unless something very unforeseen happens that goes against the democrats. I also don't think either party can unite with independents or that they can't do much to attract them as a group as they're way too diverse. Trump has managed to drive the majority of independents into the Democrats column. That's where they stand today, tomorrow is unknown. But as long as Trump keeps being the face and the leader of the GOP, that coalition, fragile as it is, will probably hold.

2024 will depend on the two candidates. Please, no more Hillary's which a vast majority of independent didn't like. Biden was likable, Hillary wasn't and neither is Trump. Now 2022, I think at the moment the senate is safe. Until redistricting takes place, the house is an unknown factor. Probably much depends on whether the Democratic controlled congress does something or passes something that make independents angry at them. I would add if Trump fades away, that would dim the the democratic prospects of keeping the house.

I think the best way to keep independents happy is not to over do it. Certainly not to pass something a majority of Americans are against; Bill Clinton in 1994 and Obama in 2010 made that mistake. It resulted in a 54 and 63 seat loss. I'd also say lose the stupid slogans. Greger doesn't agree with me, but I think and the polls show Defund the Police slogan was the main reason the democrats lost 13 house seats, 2 state legislatures and a governorship in 2020.


It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
Jeffery J. Haas #334924 07/31/21 10:25 PM
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A friend told me that one and the chances he is wrong are strong - I think. Still, the mess was serious about the poor in jail and I agreed to that. However, Seattle has been simply letting almost all arrests out as soon as possible and that includes those who have doing violent things, long records of bad, etc. One would have thought they would think it all through and make specific conditions for release. That did not happen and has not happened.

I have a daughter that works in an attorney office. They tend to talk about this stuff and, apparently, this was not thought through by them that did it. Its a little like the Seattle Council member (now gone) who publicly stated that it was ok for the poor to steal because they were poor and should never be arrested. OH, the results of stuff like this is a continuing exit of members of the Seattle police department - they are just giving up. Unfortunately I think the rule of the left will just go away because this stuff - they seem to be working pretty hard at making sure of this one.

There are sins and the worst political sin is going to extremes and we are seeing more and more of that and that's also unfortunate.

jgw #334925 08/01/21 03:31 AM
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And yet ....

Fewer than 1 in 5 support 'defund the police' movement, USA TODAY/Ipsos Poll finds

Eighteen percent, and that shows that it can only mean that an incredible tsunami of cash is being poured into propaganda apparatus that tries to paint a majority of Dems as being in favor of "Defund the Police".

Oh...now I expect to hear protestations of hyperbole, as the Right continues to glibly weaponize the unfortunate to score rhetorical points, and demand to know why there's no theatrical flourishes from the Left: "Why aren't you beating the crap out of the Defund the Police people and holding up their severed heads to prove to us how much you love law and order!!!

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Jeffery J. Haas; 08/01/21 03:31 AM.

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jgw #334926 08/01/21 01:22 PM
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Not really. Democrats had a huge cash advantage in 2020.

Democratic candidates and groups have spent $6.9 billion, compared to $3.8 billion for Republicans. Democrats' spending falls to $5.5 billion when excluding spending by billionaire presidential candidates Michael Bloomberg and Tom Steyer.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2020/10/cost-of-2020-election-14billion-update/

Studying exit polls, one sees a lot of ticket splitters, especially independents voting for Biden, then Republican down ballot. A good example of this is 41% of independents voting for Republican for Trump, 48% of independents voted for Republican congressional candidates, 51% of independents voted for Republican senate candidates, 54% for Republican governor candidates.

Defund the police didn't stick to Biden, maybe some of it did, but the independents dislike of Trump was more than enough to overcome that slogan. But apparently, the dislike of Trump didn't reach much below Biden.

An historical note here, Biden became only the second candidate to win the popular vote on his way to winning the presidency to lose seats in the house in this nation's history. The only other time was in 1884, Grover Cleveland who lost 18 house seats while winning the presidency and the popular vote 48.9 to 48.3%.

The thing is it wasn't money as the democrats had a huge advantage there. Just the presidency alone, Biden spent 1.6 billion to Trump's 1.1 billion rounding off.

https://www.opensecrets.org/2020-presidential-race

I think the bottom line is Defund the Police was just a dumb slogan where independents took defund to mean defund as in Webster's definition. Not reform. Thus the huge difference in the percentage of vote for Trump 41% and congressional Republicans 48%. That's a lot of ticket splitters. 41.3 million independents voted in 2020, 16.9 million for Trump, but 19.8 million for Republican congressional candidates going by CNN exit poll percentages. Just independents alone had almost 3 million ticket splitters.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/exit-polls/president/national-results

Last edited by perotista; 08/01/21 04:16 PM.

It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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