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Originally Posted by numan
...
Even Americans don't claim that they invented photography.
Nor do I think that any of them have claimed to have created the Earth and the Moon, despite your wholely erroneous implication to the contrary.

George Eastman gets credit for having invented a practical dry-film process that made photography a an accessible art for the millions. IIRC, the scientists of the Eastman Kodak Co. get the credit for having developed a practical color film process - Kodachrome - that is 75 years old this summer and which is soon to be discontinued.


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Originally Posted by 2wins
in the end, it's all relative. numan's approach is numan's approach. do i believe he is wrong? of course. but for his own purposes, and his alone, he is right. of course, based upon the posts i have seen, numan would not agree with this assertion.

Still, I ask " what is numan's point?"
Assuming what he says is true in his context
what is the point?

ON a different thread, numan asserted that
Originally Posted by numan
One can indeed find much talent in America, but it is notably lacking in genius --- which is one of the most salient indicators of the barbarism and degeneracy of its society.

IMO this is speculative at best...
and, IMO demonstrably wrong since there has been barbarism and degeneracy associated with great art as well as the lack of great art.


Last edited by Ardy; 09/07/09 02:06 PM.

"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel
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Originally Posted by numan
...
Genius? Most of the genius involved came from non-Americans.
IIRC, Werner von Braun stated that the Raketenforschung of the Third Reich derived from the work of American physicist Robert Goddard, of Clark University; he seemed to be surprised that no one understood that.

Quote
Talent, organization and hard work there were in plenty. These are qualities for which the pedestrian American character has a flair.
And for which much of the world seems to be appreciative, even if it is not acknowledged. I believe, are we not, having this exchange through a medium whose existence is almost entirely attributable to the virtues of that pedestrian character which you so readily scorn?

Quote
I don't claim that photography can't be art. Obviously, it can.

But the NASA Earth photograph is not an artistic creation. It could just as easily have been taken by a ship-board computer. No creativity at all was involved.
Perhaps it is better than an artistic creation? A perfect rendition of the truth and beauty of the creation about us, unsullied by the misconceptions and prejudices of the human dauber. Which truly transfixes the soul, the "earthrise" from Apollo 8, or the countless "artist's conception" daubings from works of both science and fiction?

Last edited by Ron G.; 09/07/09 01:50 PM.

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numan, is it your mindset to pretty much disagree with anything anyone says and to then continue on to oneupmanship on every and all occasions? Because it sure seems like it.

Somewhat offtopic
Because of my son's incessant and critical blogs and petitions aimed at Kodak, they have sent him a bucketload of new film technology and asked him to review them. He has also been asked to write photography columns for Blackstar. The first article

Just for fun

Happy day all.

EmmaG


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Emma, that's terrific. You must be proud.


sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!
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Fantastic, Emma!

Originally Posted by numan
You interpret my writing with a subtlety which I do not often find here. wink
I can be trained.
Really. smile



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Originally Posted by EmmaG
Happy day all.
EmmaG

Thx so much for sharing that...
I really enjoyed


"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel
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Originally Posted by EmmaG
...
Because of my son's incessant and critical blogs and petitions aimed at Kodak, they have sent him a bucketload of new film technology and asked him to review them. He has also been asked to write photography columns for Blackstar.
Emma, I shall most graciously concede that your son's claim to fame is worthy of some passing consideration so long as you and he are not so gauche as to assume that this implies a real talent for things artistic, whether written or visual. You must remember the limitations inherent in the American character, American society and American education, and that he has hit the trifecta.

Given your son's limits as a result of his misfortune to be an American rather than the scion of a civilized nation, please understand that he will never be able to write some subtle, extended metaphor such as a sublime word-craftsman like Nabokov would bring forth, or the complex nuancing of the tortured soul that would spring from the brow of a Tolstoy or a Proust or a Joyce. He must, alas, be content with short, rudely-energetic bursts of words that would splatter from the pen of someone like Hemingway, the exemplar of the bloated, drunk and violent culture that is the real America.

Nor should you consider his photography to be real art, for it is mere technology, and any culture - even a pedestrian one like that of America - is capable of reproducing it as it lacks the soul of true art that is exclusively the birthright of those blessed to have been born and intellectually nurtured in some less toxic cultural womb. Therefore, when he - without imagination or real appreciation of truth and beauty - points and clicks at some dull American face that is unanimated by any true sense of taste or refinement, remember that it is not really art, it is just a subtle and extended metaphor of American rape of the world of true civilization and refinement.

Other than those modest proposals for the consideration of your doubtlessly-limited comprehension, I graciously extend to you my leave to enjoy the moment.

grin ROTFMOL grin


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Originally Posted by EmmaG
numan, is it your mindset to pretty much disagree with anything anyone says and to then continue on to oneupmanship on every and all occasions?

Well, you are getting warmer. I like to take accepted "wisdom" and stand it on its head. The fact that it most often makes as much --- or as little --- sense as its opposite shows how incorrectly framed our ideas usually are.

My "mindset," as you call it, is to take unquestioned assumptions and question them. If I can make people feel like fools for swallowing so much nonsense, that is all to the good. It is a sound pedagogical method --- at least in the United States, where people are so used to being flattered, not to mention flattering themselves.

.

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Originally Posted by Ron G.
Werner von Braun stated that the Raketenforschung of the Third Reich derived from the work of American physicist Robert Goddard, of Clark University; he seemed to be surprised that no one understood that.

von Braun understood very well that you need to flatter Americans outrageously if you are to get anywhere in the United States.

.

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