Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Current Topics
Texas hostages
by pdx rick - 01/17/22 03:41 AM
Winning
by perotista - 01/17/22 12:14 AM
Gerrymandering
by pdx rick - 01/17/22 12:13 AM
Round Table Winter 2021
by pdx rick - 01/17/22 12:00 AM
Coronavirus: The Plague of The 21st Century?
by chunkstyle - 01/16/22 03:45 PM
National Commission to Investigate the January 6
by pondering_it_all - 01/16/22 12:02 PM
Lindsey v. Mitch: Senate cage match
by logtroll - 01/15/22 05:11 AM
Don't look up
by jgw - 01/14/22 10:42 PM
Complexity Science
by Jeffery J. Haas - 01/12/22 06:34 PM
What's for dinner?
by pondering_it_all - 01/02/22 09:37 PM
RoundTable For Fall 2021
by Mellowicious - 01/02/22 04:21 AM
Divorce: American Style
by pdx rick - 12/31/21 01:56 AM
Gimme some of that good ol time religion
by pondering_it_all - 12/23/21 08:19 PM
F.D.A. Will Permanently Allow Abortion Pills by Mail
by Mellowicious - 12/22/21 09:03 PM
Joe Manchin thread
by perotista - 12/22/21 08:33 PM
A Fungus Amungus
by logtroll - 12/22/21 01:00 AM
Texas abortion law guy responds
by Mellowicious - 12/19/21 02:06 AM
Popular Topics(Views)
9,782,512 my own book page
4,857,491 We shall overcome
3,971,686 Campaign 2016
3,615,563 Trump's Trumpet
2,867,237 3 word story game
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 4 of 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 28 29
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,853
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,853
Originally Posted by Mellowicious
I think it is that concept - that a discussion or debate involves a lure (or perhaps bait) and getting hooked (or snared, perhaps) that some might find less than straightforward; most of us would rather be the fisher than the fished - even better, to converse without checking for lures.

I, also, would much rather engage in a disinterested and co-operative search for truth, rather than attempt to catch and eat other human beings. But I will not hold my breath waiting for others to join me in my noble goals.

It may surprise some people that I have a great deal of sympathy for Libertarianism and its goals; I would wish it great success if.... Ah, yes, IF! Frankly, it makes me feel like a frustrated lover. As I get close to Libertarianism, I start finding it repellent, even a little frightening! There is an element of fanaticism about it, a blinkered vision, an inability to let complex reality interfere with the quasi-religious dogma Libertarians embrace. They seem only to see the (very real) sins of government, and to ignore sins which would arise from other centers of power, once the dragon of Big Government is slain. (I think principally of the power of Mega-Business and other centers of financial power)

As long as Libertarians are so narrow-minded and obsessive, I must part company with them. If people do not have a sense of balance in their political views, I think they are dangerous.

Although I like political theory, I am very suspicious of it. Ideally, I think politics should be an experimental science; that it should start with a variety of small scale models, that the bugs should be worked out before political procedures are scaled up to wide scale application. Above all, there should be flexibility, an awareness that there are "different strokes for different folks," there is no "one size fits all" in human affairs, and above all, circumstances change, and we should change with them.

But what do we see in history? People with inflexible theories, who are easy prey for scoundrels who flatter them; rigid and fossilized social institutions that fight tooth-and-nail to protect parasitic and narrow interests.

Nothing changes until there is a catastrophic crisis, and then everything changes, without the careful thought and preparation that should precede political change. Chaos, waste, and incredible suffering are then inevitable.

Really, how can I have any respect for most humans, when they are so incredibly stupid not to see facts that are so blindingly obvious!

Last edited by numan; 05/15/09 09:22 PM.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 44,843
Likes: 50
Member
CHB-OG
Offline
Member
CHB-OG
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 44,843
Likes: 50
Originally Posted by numan
...I think politics should be an experimental science...
Is that what the US government and its constitution is, an extended experiment?


Contrarian, extraordinaire


Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,031
R
member
Offline
member
R
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,031
Originally Posted by Phil Hoskins
...
Thanks for rating the argument. Now that you have given your opinion about my argument, how about saying something substantive instead?
Okay. Do any of the writers actually say that libertarianism causes stupidity? I do not believe that they did; thus it would appear that your post title was purely to inflame and bait.

No, I do not have a problem with you trying to bait Issodhos. After all, I believe it was your opinion that he was trying to bait others. So, it's that goose/gander thing. Also, I doubt seriously that Issodhos is overly concerned that you appear to be trying to bait Issodhos.

Quote
You know, on another thread a big deal was made about my calling into question the lead post and I got pretty well banged up about it.
I believe my concern was not with the lead post per se, but rather what you and others were trying to say it said about Issodhos.

Quote
Interesting that all either you or issodhos can post on this thread are critiques of my skills at arguing.
I can't speak for Issodhos; however, as stated elsewhere in this thread, I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable of the breadth of libertairian philosophy to be qualified to conduct a general defense of it.

Quote
I take that as an open admission that you got nothing.
In this case, I'm nothing but a strawman for you to hold up as an excellent (non)example of a libertarian. Perhaps you can point out where I claimed to be one?

Quote
As I say, libertarianism is crap put forth without good intentions by people who have no real world experience or responsibilities.
That's a rather broad and irresponsible statement to make, isn't it...considering that you know nothing of Issodhos except what he's mentioned here. Isn't that what is called the fallacy of hasty generalization?


Life should be led like a cavalry charge - Theodore Roosevelt
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,655
Likes: 27
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,655
Likes: 27
Originally Posted by Ron G.
I'm an [old-style | principled | paleo-] conservative, and that means I do share to a lot of their philosophy; however, I'm not sure if I understand all parts of it well enough to be defending it.
That's OK by me, Ron, because I have lost all faith in conservatism as a relevant political philosophy too... wink


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 21,134
Administrator
Bionic Scribe
OP Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 21,134
Yeah it is an over reach, and I am deleting that. Thanks.


Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,655
Likes: 27
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,655
Likes: 27
I beliewve,Ron, that the thread is a title from the first link. While it may have been a deliberate provocation, it was the basis for the thread.

And, numan, where I think you go wrong in your perception/analysis is failing to consider that the structure of the constitution is itself designed to prevent precisely the kind of descent into anarchy that you posit.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,853
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,853
Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
And, numan, where I think you go wrong in your perception/analysis is failing to consider that the structure of the constitution is itself designed to prevent precisely the kind of descent into anarchy that you posit.

I marvel that, at this late date, you imagine that the Constitution is preventing a descent into anarchy.

-

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,853
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,853
Originally Posted by california rick
Is that what the US government and its constitution is, an extended experiment?

It is an extended failed experiment!

-

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581
I
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
I
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581
Originally Posted by Ron G.
However, I perceive that the person you really want an exchange with is Issodhos, the one person here clearly identifiable as a libertarian; thus, the flame-bait title and my still-standing YOTF rating of 2.

No doubt, Ron. And I will probably agree to be Phil's "huckleberry" in this thread, but at the moment I am still intrigued with and mentally dwelling on the "rootedness" - "blood and soil" thing. One thing I find somewhat humorous is the claim by some that they are here to cooperatively seek Truth, when in reality, anyone who has been on the Internet and sought to interact on that level quickly found that what such claimants almost always really mean is that they are eager to join a choir that will re-enforce their own thoughts without meaningful critique.:-)
Yours in "il gran rifiuto",
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 21,134
Administrator
Bionic Scribe
OP Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 21,134
Originally Posted by issodhos
Originally Posted by Ron G.
However, I perceive that the person you really want an exchange with is Issodhos, the one person here clearly identifiable as a libertarian; thus, the flame-bait title and my still-standing YOTF rating of 2.

No doubt, Ron. And I will probably agree to be Phil's "huckleberry" in this thread, but at the moment I am still intrigued with and mentally dwelling on the "rootedness" - "blood and soil" thing. One thing I find somewhat humorous is the claim by some that they are here to cooperatively seek Truth, when in reality, anyone who has been on the Internet and sought to interact on that level quickly found that what such claimants almost always really mean is that they are eager to join a choir that will re-enforce their own thoughts without meaningful critique.:-)
Yours in "il gran rifiuto",
Issodhos

Off topic, please return to the topic of this thread

Moderator and thread starter.


Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
Page 4 of 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 28 29

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 38 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SuZQ2, KevFilthyANML, Risky, Gladys G. Jackson, Beach Baby
6,297 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums61
Topics17,273
Posts313,875
Members6,297
Most Online294
Dec 6th, 2017
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.4.27 Page Time: 0.014s Queries: 36 (0.006s) Memory: 3.0437 MB (Peak: 3.2530 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2022-01-17 07:19:11 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS