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Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
It so happens that I am a firm believer in fundamental human rights,
Human rights? No one has been discussing human rights, NWP, yet, as you so often do, you insert and argue a point not made. If nothing else, you are a good source for examples of ignoratio elenchi.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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I'm sorry, Iss. All this time I assumed you were human...


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Originally Posted by Phil Hoskins
What I wanted to accomplish on this thread was to demonstrate the completely vacuous nature of libertarian thinking, and you have done the job beyond my wildest hopes.

Thank you.

Not to mention, proving your other thesis about the vacuous nature of the Internet!


"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
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Originally Posted by issodhos
Originally Posted by loganrbt
Rubbish is it? You just love those self-descriptive terms, don't you?

Even a casual review of the many shattered elements of "nature" that make "man" unique from other forms of animal life documents how ephemeral is our self-ascribed sense of superiority over other animals that populate the earth (language, tools, opposable thumbs, societal behavior, etc).

I encourage you to re-read my post, loganrbt. I made no claim to man being superior. I did make the claim that his nature was different from the nature of a leopard -- and by extension, other animals. I could, but I did not.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Nor did anyone suggest you had, Iss. But I suppose if your posts represent your manner of thinking, then one could believe you truly don't understand the difference between a general observation and a direct implication. In the self-centered universe from which your posts appear to emanate, I suppose everything seems to be about you.


"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
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Once again it comes down to throwing insults. Issodhos can certainly be insufferable can't he? No one has come close to convincing me that Libertarianism can't work though, at least as well as Communism, Fascism, Socialism, Monarchism, Naziism, Totalitarianism, Botulism, Budhism or Bokononism.

I am fully convinced that Anarchism cannot work, that man will eventually succumb to extinction due to a loss of suitable habitat, that he is really an animal. That rights are only in our heads and that governments are created by the strongest to control the weakest. Americanism has worked for a couple hundred years but it appears to be collapsing as all the gold is running uphill, Issodhos offers a possible, unusual(probably unworkable) solution but an inability to communicate, or acccept his vision long enough to think it through without getting angry or frustrated makes it nearly impossible to discuss the actual nuts and bolts of Government under Libertarian Leadership.

Not some imaginary government. Our government. Our Constitution. Our three branches. Our Military our Laws and our Population. Not Liberal, not Conservative, but something altogether different.

I believe it would help, Issodhos, if just once in a while, whether you are or not, you would admit to being less than infallible, or give up a point for the sake of the game.


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Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
I'm sorry, Iss. All this time I assumed you were human...

Well, there you go then, NW Ponderer. There are somethings you just should not assume -- especially when on the Internut.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Issodhos is correct that we have been here before, as he referenced some of our previous efforts. We run down the same circular path and end up following the same circular patterns - chicken-and-egg style. As Greger points out, many of our frustrations stem from the same sources. Phil has noted in several threads that it is difficult to carry on discussions in the presence of certain communication styles (indeed, that is often the purpose), and that real substance is often difficult to find on the internet. Can progress be made? I have my doubts. I enjoy a good debate, but resent a lousy one.

I have my views, and over time they have become ingrained, not because I believe I am superior, but because over time, having thought them through thoroughly and allowed them to be challenged, they have stood up and remained logically and empirically consistent. I have rejected approaches that don't meet this criteria. I like a challenge, especially an intellectual one, and I love the give and take of a passionate debate. We live in interesting and difficult times, and there are real-world challenges that need solutions. Sometimes outside-the-box thinking will bring them, so I am always willing to entertain those types of solutions. Issodhos mentioned a commercial fishing rights solution, which, ironically, is a solution already implemented in the Northwest, and not a particularly libertarian one (since someone has to create/impose/police the zones, set catch limits, and perform the empirical data collection to determine efficacy). I don't much care where these solutions come from, so long as they are pragmatic and take into account human behavior. That is one of the reasons that I have been impressed by the Obama administration so far - they look for solutions in various places, try to determine what is possible, and try to implement them in ways that are concordant with human behavior. It really is a different approach to governance, and it will be fun to watch it develop.

So, I am not going to get drawn further into a meaningless debate over angels and pins - whether one describes something as an "interest," a "human right," a "civil right," an "inherent right," an "in(un)alienable right," a "fundamental interest," "basic liberty" or "privilege" is really unimportant in this context (except as a distraction from the substance) - what is important is whether such interests can be identified, evaluated, and determined to be important enough to protect with societal authority. I believe some are, and others must give way to the interest of the common good (the collective interest). The balance between them changes constantly as circumstances change. Life is a balancing act, and human society, made up of living creatures, is inherently about striking balances. It is that balance that is important.


A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Originally Posted by Greger
I believe it would help, Issodhos, if just once in a while, whether you are or not, you would admit to being less than infallible, or give up a point for the sake of the game.
I say, bit of a stretch, that, wot. A jolly good thing for the game, then? Hmmm... but, do you think anyone would be fooled by such an obviously outlandish ploy?;-)
Yours in clarity,
Issodhos
BHWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!:-)


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
what is important is whether such interests can be identified, evaluated, and determined to be important enough to protect with societal authority. I believe some are, and others must give way to the interest of the common good (the collective interest). The balance between them changes constantly as circumstances change. Life is a balancing act, and human society, made up of living creatures, is inherently about striking balances. It is that balance that is important.

BRAVO, NWP! Bow

Some may say that what you wrote is obvious; but sometimes we cannot be reminded of the obvious too much!

-

Last edited by numan; 05/23/09 05:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Greger
Seneca the Younger wrote:
� It is a mistake to imagine that slavery pervades a man's whole being; the better part of him is exempt from it: the body indeed is subjected and in the power of a master, but the mind is independent, and indeed is so free and wild, that it cannot be restrained even by this prison of the body, wherein it is confined.�

Well, we have certainly made great progress since Seneca's day!

The techniques of the mass info-tainment media, government propaganda, religion, "public relations," advertising, subliminal manipulation, etc. etc. now make it possible to bend the minds of modern "consumer-units" [George H. W. Bush's phrase] to whatever shape is desired, as easily as a Roman slave-master bent the bodies of his slaves to his will.

Oh, and by the way, how is libertarianism going to deal with this aspect of the modern world? wink


Last edited by numan; 05/23/09 05:28 PM.
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